Spun-off and Watered-down

[Grant Jennings]

It has struck me that when a favorite supporting character is spun-off to their own series the character is often watered-down or has their rough edges smoothed over as part of the transition. A prime example of this is Rhoda Morgenstern. On The Mary Tyler Moore Show Rhoda is brash and outspoken, she is also neurotic and insecure. Initially Rhoda (and Valerie Harper in real life) is overweight, something she jokes about - probably as a defense mechanism ("I'm going to make a joke about it so you don't have to"). Kudos to Mary Tyler Moore who, noticing Harper's weight loss, decided to have it written into the show and have Harper dressed in more flattering clothes (as flattering as anything in that era could be); I can only imagine how some other actresses may have responded.

When Rhoda moves to New York and her own series she becomes less outspoken and more self-confident. It's Rhoda's mother Ida who says anything and everything that crosses her mind. It's Rhoda's sister Brenda who is filled with self-doubt. Like Harper, Julie Kavner is also overweight when the series begins but goes on to lose weight during the course of the series. Rhoda often dispenses advice to Brenda the way Mary dispensed advice to her. To my ears it sounds like Rhoda's New York accent was more pronounced when she was living in Minneapolis than when she moved back to New York.

Though Rhoda's ratings were strong enough to sustain it for four and a half seasons, the show never recovered from the break-up of Rhoda's marriage (something that many have said happened too early in the series). The show was re-tooled several times; among the characters added to the show were Gary who was just as full of himself as Ted Baxter was on MTM. Rhoda closes her self-owned business and goes to work at a costume shop run by Jack who is a lot like Lou Grant from MTM. The final season of Rhoda focuses on the separation and eventual reconciliation of Rhoda's parents and Brenda's engagement to her boyfriend Benny. Rhoda is almost a supporting character in her own series when it is cancelled due to poor ratings.

 

[Alexis]

Fallon Carrington. That is all.

 

[Daniel Avery]

The Golden Girls ended when Bea Arthur left. The three remaining girls were spun-off into Golden Palace, and their characters were altered too much to fit the new format/premise. Their main concern seemed to become their hotel--the staff, the guests, operations, etc. It did not ring true to me because none of them had ever expressed an interest in running a hotel (Blanche's extensive knowledge of cheap hotels notwithstanding). Blanche's outrageous excesses regarding her 'gentlemen callers' was toned down, and Rose had more brain power than she'd had in years (for better or worse). Sophia's role was diminished into dispensing one-liners and helping establish the supporting characters. It was logical that Blanche and Rose would have to become more serious and focused with the purchase of a business, but the abrupt changes were not handled well by the writers.

Sophia lost even more dimension and depth when, after the death of Palace after one season, she was added to the cast of Empty Nest, another GG spin-off. No real explanation was given as to what happened with the hotel--Sophia just showed up on the Westons' doorstep one day to visit and ended up taking on the role of dropping by, dispensing a few jokes/insults, then disappearing. Gone were the days of Sophia functioning as a matriarchal, advice-dispensing figure for the younger characters--the undercurrent of her visits seemed to be "the wacky neighbor" even though she was no longer living in the neighborhood. They casually mentioned in dialogue that she had moved back to Shady Pines. Yes, the same Shady Pines that was the bane of Sophia's existence (and the butt of endless jokes having to do with its horrible accommodations) back when Sophia lived with the Girls next door to the Westons.

 

[DallasFanForever]

I think Golden Palace is a perfect example of what this thread was getting at. I don’t think I made it through the first episode before giving up for good. Loved The Golden Girls, one of my all time favorite shows but it just wasn’t gonna work without all four of those women.

 

[Chris2]

Rhoda is a weird show. It deviated from the other big MTM-produced shows at the time in that it didn’t split its time between the character’s work and home life. In the case of Rhoda, it was all home life. And that setup was constantly changing. The early episodes had her living with Brenda. Then she married Joe and moved into his apartment. Then she and Joe moved into a bigger place. Then Joe left her. Then Rhoda moved to a smaller place. Then her parents disappeared from the show for a while, so she got new friends played by Anne Meara and Ron Silver. Then the parents came back and the new friends disappeared and she went to work for the Lou Grant clone. They never did anything with Joe‘s parents (even though they seemed to be upper middle class, setting up some potential class conflicts) or his ex-wife or son.

Perhaps if the show had had a strong and consistent workplace setting, it would have been better able to sustain all the changes to her personal life. Or maybe the writers should have spent more time mapping out a natural arc for her personal life, rather than making it up as they went. Perhaps it could have been a romantic comedy, with a more appealing male lead than David Groh (his character was kind of a jerk and Rhoda had to pressure him into marriage - ugh).

Through it all, Valerie Harper and Julie Kavner were troupers, but they deserved a better show.

 

[Seaviewer]

Rhoda often dispenses advice to Brenda the way Mary dispensed advice to her.

I think that was intentional. Brenda was Rhoda's Rhoda.

the show never recovered from the break-up of Rhoda's marriage (something that many have said happened too early in the series).

It was the marriage that happened too early. Rhoda's life became too perfect too quickly. Viewers wanted to see her back to her scrappy self - so the break-up.

Brenda's engagement to her boyfriend Benny.

Ah, yes, Benny Goodwin. One of the greatest character names of all time.

 

[Grant Jennings]

Through it all, Valerie Harper and Julie Kavner were troupers, but they deserved a better show.

Agreed, two wonderfully talented ladies with material that was beneath them.

The temporary absence of Rhoda's parents was due to Nancy Walker having two series on ABC: The Nancy Walker Show and Blansky's Beauties, neither of which lasted very long.

I think Golden Palace is a perfect example of what this thread was getting at. I don’t think I made it through the first episode before giving up for good. Loved The Golden Girls, one of my all time favorite shows but it just wasn’t gonna work without all four of those women.

I think the writers of Golden Palace knew they couldn't continue to do The Golden Girls without Dorothy so they changed the setting. Maybe if Blanche and Rose were running a small bed & breakfast (and doing a comically bad job of it) instead of a large hotel it might have worked. Maybe? On Dynasty Fallon decided to run a hotel. We already knew Fallon was intelligent and driven but she was also young and lacked direction. I couldn't imagine Fallon simply passing her days inside the Carrington mansion (between affairs), she would be climbing the walls. But Blanche and Rose were two women "of a certain age" who had never shown any business acumen. Throwing Sophia into the mix made no sense at all, she either should have gone to live with Dorothy or gone to live with another relative if Blanche and Rose weren't going to stay in the house in Miami.

 

[bmasters9]

What about Fish, short-lived 1977-78 (1976-77 to 1977-78) spinoff of Barney Miller that had that Miller character (Phil Fish, the late, great Abe Vigoda) becoming a co-foster parent w/his wife Bernice (the late Florence Stanley) to a handful of PINS (Persons In Need of Supervision)?

The first go of that (Feb. to Aug. 1977) is in my copy of the original version of Shout!'s Barney Miller all-in-one, and while I enjoyed everything about the main event of Barney Miller, I have not to this day touched the Fish portion yet, and have found no reason to as yet.

 

[Grant Jennings]

What about Fish, short-lived 1977-78 (1976-77 to 1977-78) spinoff of Barney Miller that had that Miller character (Phil Fish, the late, great Abe Vigoda) becoming a co-foster parent w/his wife Bernice (the late Florence Stanley) to a handful of PINS (Persons In Need of Supervision)?

The first go of that (Feb. to Aug. 1977) is in my copy of the original version of Shout!'s Barney Miller all-in-one, and while I enjoyed everything about the main event of Barney Miller, I have not to this day touched the Fish portion yet, and have found no reason to as yet.

Skip the Fish course. While I understand the thought process behind giving Phil and Bernice Fish their own spin-off, the premise stinks. Surrounding Abe Vigoda with a group of wise-cracking teens reeks of network interference. They took two unique characters and put them in the center of a generic sitcom. If I knew nothing about the show I would still be able to tell it aired on ABC in the late 70s after just a few minutes. It feels more like a Garry Marshall sitcom than one produced by Danny Arnold (and I don't mean that as a compliment).

Just as The Mary Tyler Moore Show continued to do well after the departures of Rhoda and Phyllis , Barney Miller was still a strong show despite Abe Vigoda's departure and the death of Jack Soo. Danny Arnold offered Abe Vigoda the chance to remain on Barney Miller while also starring on Fish (which sounds lucrative and like a good safety net in case the spin-off failed) but Vigoda insisted on being written off of Barney Miller. I learned Fish would probably have been renewed for a third season but salary negotiations between Vigoda and the producers broke down. I'm surprised the series managed to last two entire seasons, it simply wasn't very good.

 

[bmasters9]

Skip the Fish course. While I understand the thought process behind giving Phil and Bernice Fish their own spin-off, the premise stinks. Surrounding Abe Vigoda with a group of wise-cracking teens reeks of network interference. They took two unique characters and put them in the center of a generic sitcom. If I knew nothing about the show I would still be able to tell it aired on ABC in the late 70s after just a few minutes. It feels more like a Garry Marshall sitcom than one produced by Danny Arnold (and I don't mean that as a compliment).

Just as The Mary Tyler Moore Show continued to do well after the departures of Rhoda and Phyllis , Barney Miller was still a strong show despite Abe Vigoda's departure and the death of Jack Soo. Danny Arnold offered Abe Vigoda the chance to remain on Barney Miller while also starring on Fish (which sounds lucrative and like a good safety net in case the spin-off failed) but Vigoda insisted on being written off of Barney Miller. I learned Fish would probably have been renewed for a third season but salary negotiations between Vigoda and the producers broke down. I'm surprised the series managed to last two entire seasons, it simply wasn't very good.

Excellent advice! Here lately at the Wal-Mart in Simpsonville (it's not at that store anymore), I've seen a repackaged version of the Barney Miller all-in-one, and it doesn't have the Fish season in it-- I guess Shout! must have realized that Fish wasn't that good.

 

[ArchieLucasCarringtonEwing1989]

Fallon Carrington. That is all.

They started watering her down as early as season 3 on Dynasty, but not nearly as bad as she was in The Colby’s

 

[Chris2]

Fish was just plain stinky.

 

[DallasFanForever]

Fish just wasn’t a very good show. Abe Vigoda was a fine actor but the show was just missing something. And I really wasn’t a fan of Barney Miller to be honest so I guess ur really not going to enjoy a spin-off of a show when you don’t even like the original show

 

[Daniel Avery]

That's a frequent issue with spin-offs. The producers fail to recognize that the reason that breakout character is so popular is because of the interactions with the rest of the cast. Take that breakout character to another setting and the magic doesn't always transfer--in fact, it usually doesn't. To make the spin-off work, they have to focus just as much on the new circle of characters who will interact with that character. Too often, they approach it as "Oh, they love [spin-off star] no matter what he does. We don't have to worry about the rest of the cast."

I remember the ill-advised spin-off of The Jeffersons starring Marla Gibbs called Checking In. What made Florence so popular was her repartee with boss George Jefferson, how she could put him in his place even though he was her boss. Checking In had Florence quitting her job as the Jeffersons' maid to be a middle-manager at a hotel, surrounding herself with employees at the hotel. She was now a supervisor, so she could not rely on that "talking back to the boss" shtick that had made everyone root for poor, put-upon Florence. She had a boss, but their arguments had no "heft" because she was always depicted as smarter than he was (her being the star and all). The show went down in flames in record time, and Florence actually returned to her job with George and Louise as if Checking In never happened, slipping right back into her groove of trading insults with George to everyone's delight.

On the opposite end I recall Benson, a spin-off of Soap. Rather than watering him down, they actually expanded and deepened the character in his new environment. For one thing, he got a last name. He left the highly-dysfunctional Tate household for the Governor's mansion, where he assisted the Governor with all sorts of problems, personal and professional. Unlike Soap, where Benson just stood back and watched (and cracked jokes about) the insanity in the house and acted as a Greek Chorus, Benson was now the main problem-solver, advice-giver, and voice of reason among the circle of people in the mansion. What made Benson work was the attention to detail in creating the right characters for him to bounce off of to make him look better, like the dimwitted Governor who needed Benson's common-sense approach to issues, and of course the housekeeper Gretchen Kraus, the main object of his withering insults. On Soap you got the sense that he was the smartest person in the room, but on Benson he got to prove it every week.

 

[bmasters9]

Fish just wasn’t a very good show. Abe Vigoda was a fine actor but the show was just missing something. And I really wasn’t a fan of Barney Miller to be honest so I guess ur really not going to enjoy a spin-off of a show when you don’t even like the original show

That's a fine point there-- truth is, I have liked Barney Miller, though, and Fish was great when he was in the precinct squad room with all the others (his character was very funny, too). It's just the spinoff I never would have touched (and again, @Grant Jennings gave some great advice in response to my original post).

 

[DallasFanForever]

I had forgotten all about the show Checking In. Now if anyone deserved their own spinoff at that time it was certainly Marla Gibbs. She was fantastic as Florence and I can’t see anyone else playing that role as well as she did. I know they were on the show at the same time but I guess you can say she basically replaced Mother Jefferson as “the third wheel,” except instead of insulting Louise her target was George. On paper I thought Checking In was a great idea, but it was obvious pretty quickly that it wasn’t going to last long. The show just wasn’t very good and the episodes of the Jeffersons without Florence were awful as well. I couldn’t wait for her to return

 

[Grant Jennings]

I had forgotten all about the show Checking In. Now if anyone deserved their own spinoff at that time it was certainly Marla Gibbs. She was fantastic as Florence and I can’t see anyone else playing that role as well as she did. I know they were on the show at the same time but I guess you can say she basically replaced Mother Jefferson as “the third wheel,” except instead of insulting Louise her target was George. On paper I thought Checking In was a great idea, but it was obvious pretty quickly that it wasn’t going to last long. The show just wasn’t very good and the episodes of the Jeffersons without Florence were awful as well. I couldn’t wait for her to return

The problem with spinning-off a character like Florence is she was the "spice" on The Jeffersons, as a lead character that "spiciness" can be too much often results in the character being watered-down. Viewers tune in expecting to see the character they once knew only to be disappointed.

 

[Jimmy Todd]

I thought Marla Gibbs was wonderful on The Jeffersons, but I agree that Checking In was a dud. However, we did get a nice, sassy line from Florence when she returned to The Jeffersons and told Louise the hotel had burned down:
Louise: What happened to the hotel?
Florence: Child,it went up in smoke.
Louise: What about your job?
Florence: Child, it went up in smoke!

227 was a much better vehicle for Marla Gibbs, and she had Jackee Harry's character with whom to spare. Only they tried to spin off her character, which was also a flop.

 

[DallasFanForever]

Jackee having her own show was a natural at the time one would think, but again, another failed spinoff. Yet both Marla Gibbs and Sherman Helmsley had success with 227 and Amen after the Jeffersons went off the air playing different characters

 

[AndyB2008]

Not sure if anyone remembers it, but there was Booker, a 21 Jump Street spin off with Richard Grieco.

Stephen J Cannell and Fox were clearly aiming for this to be just a hit as the parent show. They gave it the 21 Jump Street 7pm slot and shunted the latter to Mondays.

Unfortunately it never achieved the same success - did people exactly watch 21 Jump Street for Grieco? And it was also up against 60 Minutes and Life Goes On, established programmes.

When Fox started getting concerned about the ratings at 7pm (you see if Booker was flopping, it pulls the rest of the Fox primetime line up down for the whole evening, which they didn't want), Booker was switched to the 10pm slot after The Tracey Ullman Show ended for good. But Booker wasn't a hit there, not helped by movies airing on the other 3 networks. Katie Rich also quit midway during the time switch, replaced by Lori Petty.

To no avail. After Booker ended, 21 Jump Street when it was shunted to Monday lasted one more season on Fox, although a further season was produced in syndication.