Did Phillip Capice understand Dallas better than Katzman?

[ArchieLucasCarringtonEwing1989]

It seems to me having watched most of the episodes of Dallas, it's apparent that this is the case, especially when you watch seasons 10 thru 14 when Katzman (and Hagman) are at the helm and Capice is absent from those seasons, it's no coincidence that the decline started when Capice was forced out of the series, it's worth noting that, Susan Howard, Victoria Principle and Ken Kerchavel were all in favour of Capice and felt he helped made the show, the big success it was, two out of three of those cast members left a season after Capice departed.

My conclusion; Capice cared about the development of all the characters and the viewership, while Katzman cared only about JR and Bobby and not really adding anything creatively to Dallas in its later years, it became a boys club.

Any thoughts?

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

David Jacobs said that Katzman and Capice couldn't stand each other yet they had the exact same approach to series television.

My sense of it was that Katzman and Capice counterbalanced one another. Capice may have reined in Katzman's taste for shlockier or campier stuff, while Katzman's sense of character developement and the family was better.

The season Katzman was gone (and Bobby was "dead") Capice brought in a new team of producers (Peter Dunne and his writers) and while they kept the show feeling more-or-less like a grounded drama, it was all over the place in terms of plot and character and was, ultimately, quite a mess.

Then when Katzman came back (and Capice was gone) they used the devastating "dream" resolution -- which killed the show on-the-spot in the minds of many and is still regarded as a joke 30 years later -- and yet the stories and series flavor that first year back for Katzman, now autonomous, were classic DALLAS.

But as the years rolled by, Katzman alone slid further and further into overt silliness. (For one thing, no season of DALLAS post-WhoShotJR? really ever worked when David Paulsen wasn't directly involved in guiding and structuring the stories, and Paulsen left in 1988).

Also, Capice was seen by some as high-handed and bitchy, while Katzman had a better bedside manner with actors and crew until you crossed him. (The show's key composer, Jerrold Immel, was fired by Capice for using guitar in the episode featuring Bobby's funeral; Immel was then rehired by Katzman who then fired him again himself, perhaps twice more).

 

[ArchieLucasCarringtonEwing1989]

I've heard many stories about Katzman, and about Capice being bitchy, I do agree they both levelled each other out, yin and yang you could say, as much as I love season 9, it did delve into the fantastical side of things at times which was rather jarring.

 

[Barbara Fan]

I think Dallas worked best when they were both involved and nothing can beat the first 6 seasons (original numbering)
And they were the Yin and yang that kept it balanced

Once Larry got too much power, thats when it began to breakdown and started becoming a Dallas i didnt love quite as much and the females got sidelined and they lost the formula that made it a success in the first place
Ewings, family, SF and relationships

 

[Rove]

The season Katzman was gone (and Bobby was "dead") Capice brought in a new team of producers (Peter Dunne and his writers) and while they kept the show feeling more-or-less like a grounded drama, it was all over the place in terms of plot and character and was, ultimately, quite a mess.

I partly blame the Dynasty effect on this. When the episode "Swan Song" aired in America on 17 May 1985 this alone should have garnered another #1 rating season for Dallas - it didn't. For the first and only time Dynasty had beat Dallas in the ratings. Most of us know this was the "Moldavian Massacre" cliffhanger episode for Dynasty.

When both series return Dynasty slaps all viewers that the main stars (including the absent Joan Collins) had somehow survived a spray of automatic gunfire. Really? Let me rewind that infamous episode again. Terrorists storm the wedding and let rip a hail of bullets and one by one - in slow motion for added benefit - all our favourite characters topple like dominoes and lie motionless - supposedly their bodies riddled with bullets. When Dynasty returns Blake, Krystal and the rest of the gang - minus a few secondary characters - stand up without a scratch, everything was intact. This was Dynasty's "Dream Season" moment. The viewers had had enough and began to leave faster than the Obama family from chilly Washington to their luxurious holiday home in Hawaii.

I've written numerous times about the departure of Patrick. Leaving Dallas when it was still riding high was brave, some argue stupid. I'd love to know the reactions from those heavily involved with Dallas when the ratings were released for the previously mentioned seasons. For me the season leading up to Bobby's death was more compelling (minus the Donna Reed debacle and that awful addition Jenilee Harrison) than Dynasty's season leading up to the "Moldavian Massacre". This was bordering on stupid, but people were watching that craziness.

I can only conclude when the season ending ratings were released Dallas producers panicked. The following season after Bobby's death should have been filled with high drama involving the Ewing/Barnes family first and foremost....but, enter Angelico Nero, her cronies, those outlandish don't belong in Dallas clothes and suddenly the focus of what made Dallas great had shifted.

It would appear Dallas suddenly shifted its heavily adult drama to Dynasty silliness - it failed. Desperate to get Dallas back to its former glory they pull off one of the most spectacular cliffhangers in television history by bringing back a dead character and we all know how that played out.

Obviously the producers had not watched the outcome from the "Moldavian Massacre". It's difficult to gauge whether Phil Capice understood Dallas better than Leonard Katzman. From those first several seasons credit should also go to Directors Michael Preece and Irving J. Moore. But what is also interesting is they also hung around to those drawn out final seasons when Dallas was at it weakest.

The problem I had with Dallas by this point was the main reason why I watched, JR Ewing. As the seasons progressed JR should have become darker in mood, more menacing, especially after the death of Jock, loosing Ewing Oil to Bobby in that contest and ultimately the death of his brother. Only Miss Ellie could reign in JR but I think it would have been interesting for the writers to push the envelope of JR rather than allowing the comedy routines to creep into Dallas.

I also partly blame Larry in this case. Did he have influence over the story? Should he have been allowed to garner so much power over Lorimar Productions by demanding such a high salary as opposed to others that were just as significant to the success of Dallas? It's telling that despite Leonard and Larry at the helm in those final seasons Dallas had slipped into territory it shouldn't have. It had stayed way past its welcome.

 

[ArchieLucasCarringtonEwing1989]

I partly blame the Dynasty effect on this. When the episode "Swan Song" aired in America on 17 May 1985 this alone should have garnered another #1 rating season for Dallas - it didn't. For the first and only time Dynasty had beat Dallas in the ratings. Most of us know this was the "Moldavian Massacre" cliffhanger episode for Dynasty.

When both series return Dynasty slaps all viewers that the main stars (including the absent Joan Collins) had somehow survived a spray of automatic gunfire. Really? Let me rewind that infamous episode again. Terrorists storm the wedding and let rip a hail of bullets and one by one - in slow motion for added benefit - all our favourite characters topple like dominoes and lie motionless - supposedly their bodies riddled with bullets. When Dynasty returns Blake, Krystal and the rest of the gang - minus a few secondary characters - stand up without a scratch, everything was intact. This was Dynasty's "Dream Season" moment. The viewers had had enough and began to leave faster than the Obama family from chilly Washington to their luxurious holiday home in Hawaii.

I've written numerous times about the departure of Patrick. Leaving Dallas when it was still riding high was brave, some argue stupid. I'd love to know the reactions from those heavily involved with Dallas when the ratings were released for the previously mentioned seasons. For me the season leading up to Bobby's death was more compelling (minus the Donna Reed debacle and that awful addition Jenilee Harrison) than Dynasty's season leading up to the "Moldavian Massacre". This was bordering on stupid, but people were watching that craziness.

I can only conclude when the season ending ratings were released Dallas producers panicked. The following season after Bobby's death should have been filled with high drama involving the Ewing/Barnes family first and foremost....but, enter Angelico Nero, her cronies, those outlandish don't belong in Dallas clothes and suddenly the focus of what made Dallas great had shifted.

It would appear Dallas suddenly shifted its heavily adult drama to Dynasty silliness - it failed. Desperate to get Dallas back to its former glory they pull off one of the most spectacular cliffhangers in television history by bringing back a dead character and we all know how that played out.

Obviously the producers had not watched the outcome from the "Moldavian Massacre". It's difficult to gauge whether Phil Capice understood Dallas better than Leonard Katzman. From those first several seasons credit should also go to Directors Michael Preece and Irving J. Moore. But what is also interesting is they also hung around to those drawn out final seasons when Dallas was at it weakest.

The problem I had with Dallas by this point was the main reason why I watched, JR Ewing. As the seasons progressed JR should have become darker in mood, more menacing, especially after the death of Jock, loosing Ewing Oil to Bobby in that contest and ultimately the death of his brother. Only Miss Ellie could reign in JR but I think it would have been interesting for the writers to push the envelope of JR rather than allowing the comedy routines to creep into Dallas.

I also partly blame Larry in this case. Did he have influence over the story? Should he have been allowed to garner so much power over Lorimar Productions by demanding such a high salary as opposed to others that were just as significant to the success of Dallas? It's telling that despite Leonard and Larry at the helm in those final seasons Dallas had slipped into territory it shouldn't have. It had stayed way past its welcome.

Your right on point as always Rove!

For some reason despite the fact that Dallas has pulled off a brave move by killing off a major character in the same season that Dynasty had shot every character, had become scared of Dynasty in season 9, this was the only season Dynasty had beaten Dallas in the ratings and the follow up to Dallas cliffhanger was brilliantly done, it had moved into a new era, Dynasty had let its viewers down by only killing two minor characters that no one cared about.

Dallas allowed itself to be shaken by Dynasty's unfortunate rise to number 1 throughout season 9 becoming Dynasty, this is my only criticism on what was a good season for Dallas, even with the Angelica Nero debacle I still think Dallas would've remained in a good place, but they undid it all and it made Dallas as silly as Dynasty was at the time.

And yes despite the fact that the 1984-85 season of Dallas was repeating the same storylines from earlier seasons it was still a lot better than Dynasty in that season.

I do also blame Hagman for allowing JR to become a buffoon, Larry Hagman had enough clout to say how his character should develop, surely he must've realised that this would be a mistake.

 

[Rove]

Larry Hagman had enough clout to say how his character should develop, surely he must've realised that this would be a mistake.

It does strike me as odd that Larry would allow this to happen. He had already played the buffoon in "I Dream Of Jeanie." It was pure genius that Larry could go from playing Major Nelson to the viewing public witnessing and accepting his portrayal of JR Ewing. Clearly Larry had clout since Barbara Eden is enlisted into the Dallas Universe as Lee Ann De La Vega. If that wasn't enough the producers/writers thought they could have some fun with the audience and actually name an episode, "I Dream Of Jeannie" airing in America on 2 February, 1990.

Well before this stage my love affair with Dallas had gone. Clearly Larry and Patrick (who must have been wondering why he returned to this mess) were gleefully accepting their cheques with little or no regard to story or plot.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

Except for Seasons 1, 2 & 9, DYNASTY was always a mess in terms of narrative and character. And so they rarely paid off on cliffhangers, so the Moldavian Massacre was just a metaphor for DYNASTY's creative problems before and after: nothing makes sense and there's no true story structure at all.

Obviously, DALLAS was much stronger in those area. But when Season 9 (per DVD count) began emulating the "glitz" of DYNASTY -- with the Ewings always dressed like they're going to the Oscars and Southfork now so cluttered with Ye Olde Curioisty Shoppe decor that you were concerned the actors were going to trip over the furniture and their own gown pleating -- the real problem was the writing. One can't underestimate the significance of the writer-producer changes which occurred immediately after Bobby died: without Katzman, Paulsen or Art Lewis there, the usual DALLAS trio, the new creators just began scrawling out rambling "soapy" plots where stuff just happens.

(I never had a problem with Jennilee Harrison myself, one way or the other).

Patrick Duffy has since conceded that they "lost objectivity" about what makes a good story during the last couple of seasons of DALLAS. That's apparent. But as I've said before, I didn't mind JR losing his edge in the closing years, a guy burned out by time and his own excesses, but I very much disliked the show around him doing the same thing... Yes, DALLAS should have gotten dustier and darker in its final seasons (instead of the reverse, where they started doing everything they'd once criticized DYNASTY for doing) even if JR himself had slipped into clinical depression.

I felt Paulsen's loss on DALLAS (and his arrival in the final year of DYNASTY) far more than Capice's exit. And, obviously, Katzman did little to save the closing seasons of DALLAS -- especially when Paulsen left in 1988.

 

[Rove]

DALLAS should have gotten dustier and darker in its final seasons

To me Dallas should have become darker immediately after Bobby's death. Have we ever seen a character killed off (obviously with Patrick's blessing) when that character is so pivotal to the success of a program?

Despite some fleeting moments of brilliance during the "Dream Season" the over-all feel of Dallas was off. It appeared Krystal Carrington's glimmering bejeweled gown had hypnotized Dallas writers into some parallel Dynasty spin-off. Philip Capice was still there during that season so I'm left wondering if outside influences were also occurring. Did CBS executives interfere?

I imagine when those ratings were released and Dynasty had achieved the impossible by beating Dallas there were some heated and panicked discussions going on behind closed doors. There was also the issue of a small window of opportunity to create a story to counter Dynasty's success. What clearly backfired on Dallas was when Dynasty returned after the airing of the "Moldavian Massacre" cliffhanger. Not one of the major characters had succumbed to a scratch. Perhaps Nolan Miller had released a memo for his designer gowns not to be ruined. Either way any credibility that Dynasty had just got flushed down the toilet.

Dallas should have stuck to its guns and taken full advantage of Bobby's death and kept itself rooted in good adult drama rather than "glitz" the place. The scene was set after the writers cleverly placed Pam into the Ewing Building. Now was the time for the writers to unshackle the beast that was JR. Let him take the fight to the Barnes family and anyone else for that matter. Take the character down that dustier and darker place you mention. Let the character drink more, one night stands with cash left on the bedside table. Allow him to abuse those closest to him, Miss Ellie, Sue Ellen even John Ross. Push JR to the brink of no return, all in his pursuit of Ewing Oil - his one true love. And just when he believes he has it, it's pulled right out from underneath his feet.

I would have accepted JR ending up in an institution after his years of "excesses" but I wanted to take that ride with him, I wanted it to be organic.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

Pam's thunder at Ewing Oil was definitely stolen -- by Angelica Nero, perhaps, who arrived at the most inopportune time? There's a conspiracy theory that Katzman, who created the character (although he was only a consultant with no power that year) did so to sidetrack the narrative away from Pam taking JR on too directly at the office.

Was Lenny that evil? We do know he didn't like tough-as-nails dames living at Southfork, which Pam did from time to time.

We'll likely never know.

DALLAS was in a tough spot by, say, 1983. Because DYNASTY, for all its increasingly egregious flaws, had quickly become the show to affect street fashion more profoundly than any series in television history. Even the middleclass programs of the period had their characters really dressing up.

DALLAS couldn't ingore that completely simply because of the Ewings' bank balance. But the scripting can still serve the characters even with baubles and furry frocks. But, with Dunne's new writers, it mostly didn't.

 

[Rove]

Pam's thunder at Ewing Oil was definitely stolen -- by Angelica Nero, perhaps, who arrived at the most inopportune time?

Hindsight is such a wonderful thing because this was just a dumb move. There was no reason for Angelica Nero's grand entrance out of left field. We had already the most powerful woman in Dallas - Pam. As for Lenny not liking "tough as nails" women at Southfork my re-watching of Dallas counters this claim. Though Sue Ellen (early seasons) is the weakest of all the Ewing women I don't see the likes of Miss Ellie, Pam or even Lucy take a back seat to any of the Ewing men.

It's Lenny that appears to have this preoccupation that the viewers couldn't take to watching a strong female character - really? Was his dust ups with Phil Capice taking up so much valuable time he wasn't watching that other show that viewers were clamoring to - Dynasty anyone?

Perhaps Lenny lived in this bubble of "it's a man's world". That was old school thinking. I recall quite vividly the scene of Jock and JR at Southfork discussing JR's troubles with a woman that he was unable to control. Without their knowledge Miss Ellie is standing at the doorway and after listening to Jock inform JR a woman's place is in the bedroom and kitchen she scolds them both.

This is what I loved about Dallas. Jock was from another era and was being challenged by strong women, both from his wife and Pam for good measure when she stuck up for Digger and Cliff. Times were indeed changing.

So by the time of Bobby's death and the reading of his Will I was anxious to see how the writers would steer the relationship between JR and Pam, not some head to toe caftan, hair pin murderer.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

Hindsight is such a wonderful thing because this was just a dumb move. There was no reason for Angelica Nero's grand entrance out of left field. We had already the most powerful woman in Dallas - Pam. As for Lenny not liking "tough as nails" women at Southfork my re-watching of Dallas counters this claim. Though Sue Ellen (early seasons) is the weakest of all the Ewing women I don't see the likes of Miss Ellie, Pam or even Lucy take a back seat to any of the Ewing men.

It's Lenny that appears to have this preoccupation that the viewers couldn't take to watching a strong female character - really? Was his dust ups with Phil Capice taking up so much valuable time he wasn't watching that other show that viewers were clamoring to - Dynasty anyone?

Perhaps Lenny lived in this bubble of "it's a man's world". That was old school thinking. I recall quite vividly the scene of Jock and JR at Southfork discussing JR's troubles with a woman that he was unable to control. Without their knowledge Miss Ellie is standing at the doorway and after listening to Jock inform JR a woman's place is in the bedroom and kitchen she scolds them both.

This is what I loved about Dallas. Jock was from another era and was being challenged by strong women, both from his wife and Pam for good measure when she stuck up for Digger and Cliff. Times were indeed changing.

So by the time of Bobby's death and the reading of his Will I was anxious to see how the writers would steer the relationship between JR and Pam, not some head to toe caftan, hair pin murderer.

The jury's out on Katzman. I believe it was writer-producer Howard Lakin who said Katzman "hated" feministic women and saw women as arm trophies, with the handing down of legacy from one male generation to another noble and poignant.

I'm not a huge Lakin fan, but these things have been said before about Lenny Katzman.

On the other hand, whenever Katzman (with or without Paulsen) wanted a woman to outsmart a man or just be competent in business, Katzman did it more believably than Capice and his S9 team of writers with Peter Dunne; not only was dream season attempt to "strengthen" the women nothing but smuggy posing which smacked of '80s political correctness, it was also dumb in its execution.

 

[Rove]

Unfortunately my Lorimar Dallas DVD collection finishes at Bobby's death. I'm seriously considering purchasing the remainder of the series to realvauate my thoughts on the "Dreams Season". From memory my thoughts are Bobby's death should have had a lingering affect on the whole season but it appeared he was forgotten about after the first several episodes. I wonder how far they were into the season when Patrick agreed to return?

 

[Luke_Krebbs_Ewing]

Unfortunately my Lorimar Dallas DVD collection finishes at Bobby's death. I'm seriously considering purchasing the remainder of the series to realvauate my thoughts on the "Dreams Season". From memory my thoughts are Bobby's death should have had a lingering affect on the whole season but it appeared he was forgotten about after the first several episodes. I wonder how far they were into the season when Patrick agreed to return?

Mate you really need to get the season ten DVD. It's the last season to star both Susan Howard and Victoria Principal, and in my opinion is one of the last truly great seasons before the rot started to set in and the show lost it's way.

 

[NickLundy0911]

Mate you really need to get the season ten DVD. It's the last season to star both Susan Howard and Victoria Principal, and in my opinion is one of the last truly great seasons before the rot started to set in and the show lost it's way.

I stopped after season 11. But 1-6 (and 7, due to the hightend production values) are my favorites to rewatch.

 

[Ferney]

I can't say Capice understood it better, because the dream season was an absolute disaster and he was responsible for that. I think it's not that Katzman understood it less when he took over 10 through 14. Season 10 was good but after that, it's that he no longer cared. He and Hagman both changed their attitude to "collect the paycheck and ride it out." They had no interest in working hard in creating good television anymore, they got complacent and lazy. Success tends to breed that. I also think it was a magic combination of many people together who put those great shows together, and that neither Capice or Katzman could create that magic without the other. It took both of them to make it a success. Each one was important in their roles.

 

[Rove]

Mate you really need to get the season ten DVD. It's the last season to star both Susan Howard and Victoria Principal

Therein lies the problem. I had a real connection to Susan and Victoria. The scenes between Donna and Miss Ellie felt natural, their was a real connection between them. As for Pam? Where do I begin? Dallas just wasn't Dallas without Pam.

 

[Luke_Krebbs_Ewing]

Unfortunately my Lorimar Dallas DVD collection finishes at Bobby's death. I'm seriously considering purchasing the remainder of the series to realvauate my thoughts on the "Dreams Season". From memory my thoughts are Bobby's death should have had a lingering affect on the whole season but it appeared he was forgotten about after the first several episodes. I wonder how far they were into the season when Patrick agreed to return?

Did you ever get the remaining DVD boxsets buddy?

 

[Barbara Fan]

Have to say that my heart sinks when i see 3-5 year old threads pulled back to page 1!

:bump:

 

[Rove]

Did you ever get the remaining DVD boxsets buddy?

Not yet. I heard mixed reviews from different sources about the quality when they've purchased the Box Set. I have my fingers crossed Warner Bros might release a special 50th Anniversary Box Set. I just have to wait 7 years