Mary Tyler Moore Show and Its Spin-Offs

[Snarky Oracle!]

2001 TVLand doc:

 

[Seaviewer]

Well, then I have had another brutal false memory syndrome episode, because I was convinced they called her "Brenda."

Oh, many's the time I was absolutely convinced that something had happened on a particular show only to rewatch and find that I was completely wrong.

I found Sandy Duncan far more likeable.

I like Sandy Duncan but the dynamic of the show completely changed without the mother-son relationship between Valerie and David, and not for the better IMHO.

 

[DallasFanForever]

I like Sandy Duncan but the dynamic of the show completely changed without the mother-son relationship between Valerie and David, and not for the better IMHO

Their relationship drove the show. Without her around it never felt the same for me. I liked Sandy as well but it felt like a completely different show without Valerie.

 

[Crimson]

It seemed to be implied above that VALERIE'S FAMILY's ratings increased due to Sandy Duncan. That is not correct. The show's ratings increased because it was moved to a new night, with a stronger lead-in. For the first season and half-ish, the show aired on Sunday and had middling ratings. Towards the end of the second season, when Valerie was still the star, it was moved to Mondays after ALF. Its ratings increased significantly. That's what emboldened Valerie to ask for a salary increase, which I doubt she would have done if the show's ratings had remained low under her. If the ratings increased further without Valerie, it was probably a lot of curiosity factor about the backstage drama in much the way the ratings of DESIGNING WOMEN increased the season after Delta Burke was fired.

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

I recall Nanette Fabray also played Ann Romano's meddlesome mother on One Day At A Time in the mid-late 1970s, so I guess she had developed a niche characterization by that time.

I remember that. Nanette Fabray was quite good in that recurring role. Interestingly, her niece, Shelley Fabares, played Francine,
Anne's rival on the show. Nannette Fabray also played the mother of Shelley Fabray's character (Christine Armstrong)
on "Coach" (which I was my favorite sports themed sitcom)
More importantly, a great lady who did wonderful work on behalf of the hearing impaired

From Wikipedia:

A longtime champion of hearing awareness and support of the deaf, she sat on boards and spoke at many related functions. A forward-thinking proponent of total communication and teaching the deaf language and communication in any way possible, including American Sign Language and not just the oralism method of the time, Fabray was one of, if not the first, to use sign language on [live] television,[14] something which she continued to showcase on many programs on which she made appearances, including the Carol Burnett Show, Match Game '73, and I've Got a Secret. She even contributed the story line to an entire 1982 episode[citation needed] of One Day at a Time, which focused on hearing loss awareness and acceptance, treatment options, and sign language. Fabray appeared in a 1986 infomercial for hearing device and deafness support products for House Ear Institute.[15] In 2001, she wrote to advice columnist Dear Abby to decry the loud background music played on television programs.[16] A founding member of the National Captioning Institute,[1] she also was one of the first big names[17] to bring awareness to the need for media closed-captioning.[18]

Likewise, after the passing of her second husband, Randy MacDougall, Fabray also started to learn about the tribulations associated with spousal death and began to bring awareness to the need for changes in the law for widows and widowers.[19] She focused her later years on campaigning for widows' rights, particularly pertaining to women's inheritance laws, taxes, and asset protection.[20]

Nanette Fabray - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

Oh, many's the time I was absolutely convinced that something had happened on a particular show only to rewatch and find that I was completely wrong.

I have one where I'm sitting in a theatre as a kid watching the first STAR WARS in June 1977. And when "Episode IV, A New Hope" appears in the crawl, I asked my friend what that meant, and she explained that there were three trilogies in George Lucas' story and they'd decided to start with the second trilogy; hence, Episode 4.

And we saw the movie several times.

I'm now told that that never happened, and that "Episode IV, A New Hope" wasn't added until years later.

 

[Crimson]

But even Mary's show had continuity issues

Sometimes surprisingly large. I just passed the S3 episode where Mary's old boyfriend, Tom, visits and she finds him hard to resist. The episode establishes that Mary last saw Tom two and a half years earlier -- which would be just when she was engaged to Bill, last seen in the first episode.

I have to assume the episode was written with the intention of bringing back Mary's former fiancé; maybe the actor wasn't available, maybe someone remembered he was a goober with no chemistry with Mary, or maybe someone remembered he was the actor who threw his script on the ground. Thus a new actor playing a previously unmentioned character, but that's one heck of a retcon.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Season Four


Once again this is just an obligatory between-seasons check-in.

The big news this year has been the arrival of Sue Ann Nivens and the departure of Rhoda. Sue Ann, as expected, has been great fun. The bitchy diva behind the happy housewife is always an enjoyable contrast and Betty White plays it to perfection.

Less satisfying has been Rhoda’s departure which technically isn’t a departure. At this point there’s been no explanation so she’s simply stopped appearing. I assume this is because the spinoff wasn’t 100% confirmed at this point and if it hadn’t been green lit she would have simply remained on the parent show. On the plus side, at least she had a central role in her final episode due to her are we/aren’t we “romance” with Lou.

Rhoda has consistently been one of the best things about this series and I don’t relish watching Mary’s home life without a friend with whom she can talk things out. It’s true that Mary’s apartment already has a number of visits from her colleagues as well as suitors and the occasional relative, but it’s the Mary/Rhoda relationship that gave this location its life and it’s difficult to imagine anyone else filling that role. She gets on well with Murray, but he’s a married man with a home life (and a wife we know to be quite insecure, as the Singles Bar episode reminded us). I have a feeling that Georgette might be pushed forwards a little more as the friend, but Georgette lacks Rhoda’s directness and wisdom (and also, while she's fine in her current peripheral role, I don’t really want to see more of Georgette than we do. She feels too inauthentic and needy. I’d trust Mary Sue over Georgette. At least you know where you stand with her).

It’s been fun to watch for coughs and spits from familiar faces in small roles. Fonzie and Laverne have both shown up (it took me almost until the end of her episode before it dawned on me I was watching Penny Marshall). I’m glad Walter Cronkite’s cameo was telegraphed in the episode’s title. Since I know the name but not the face, his entrance would have gone completely over my head. Meanwhile, Don Murray lookalike and Harper Husband Richard Schaal appeared in yet another role (at least his fourth, including Chuckles The Clown). This is his most bewildering yet since I assumed he would be one of the twin brothers he’d played in previous episodes and was a little confused that Mary didn’t appear to recognise him.

Since I’m aiming to check out some of Rhoda along with MTM’s Fifth Season, I’d appreciate any input from seasoned viewers on how best to do it. I’m not bothered about strict chronology and will be happy to watch in batches since I suspect both are mostly episodic... but I’d also like a little continuity with any crossovers. I do know that I need to watch the MTM episode that aired just before Rhoda’s wedding episode, and I’d like to watch these back-to-back, but I’m unsure about the best way to get there. Any suggested viewing order would be welcome.

 

[Crimson]

Fonzie and Laverne have both shown up (it took me almost until the end of her episode before it dawned on me I was watching Penny Marshall).

I was briefly very confused about where you are in the series run. I forgot Penny showed up in S4; she also shows up later playing a different character.

The big news this year has been the arrival of Sue Ann Nivens and the departure of Rhoda. Sue Ann, as expected, has been great fun. The bitchy diva behind the happy housewife is always an enjoyable contrast and Betty White plays it to perfection.

As is often the case, some serendipitous casting . The scriptwriter included a note describing Sue Ann as a "Betty White-type", but she wasn't originally considered. Other actresses auditioned. Betty and her husband were great friends with Mary and her husband going back to the early 60s; White was often in the audience when MTM was filming. The producers weren't sure Mary would want to mix friendship with work, but Mary readily agreed with offering the role to Betty.

Sue Ann was written as a one-off character. During rehearsals, the director loved the confrontation between Sue Ann and Phyllis but was annoyed by the gaping oven door. Betty improvised slamming the door shut with her knee, which cracked everyone up and was kept in for filming. By the end of filming, the producers were already telling Betty to clear her schedule for future appearances.

Rhoda has consistently been one of the best things about this series and I don’t relish watching Mary’s home life without a friend with whom she can talk things out. It’s true that Mary’s apartment already has a number of visits from her colleagues as well as suitors and the occasional relative, but it’s the Mary/Rhoda relationship that gave this location its life and it’s difficult to imagine anyone else filling that role.

I love MTM from beginning to end but I admit the show loses some of its spark with the departure of Rhoda. It's a void that's never entirely filled. Just as the show hadn't found Mary a compelling suitor to stay the course, they never succeeded in finding a "new Rhoda" either but not for lack of trying. Combined with the increasingly infrequent appearances of Phyllis -- Cloris' career was booming by then -- Mary's homelife started to feel a bit empty.

We're lucky to have had Rhoda as long as we did, I suppose. Network pressure to give Rhoda her own show started early; definitely in S3 possibly as early as S2. I suspect the failed backdoor pilot may have been an attempt by the producers to give the network a spin-off without sacrificing any of their characters. Earlier, the producers didn't think their show could survive without Rhoda and didn't think Rhoda could survive without the show. By S4, with the introduction of Georgette and Sue Ann, the producers felt they had a strong enough ensemble to let Rhoda spin off. Personally, I wish they had held off on giving Rhoda her own show until the end of MTM, just as they did with Lou.

Less satisfying has been Rhoda’s departure which technically isn’t a departure. At this point there’s been no explanation so she’s simply stopped appearing.

I hadn't noticed before that Valerie didn't appear in the last couple episodes of S4. Possibly she was already prepping her own show, although it wasn't unusual for Rhoda to not appear in a episode or two. Even without watching RHODA, Rhoda's departure is addressed directly in the series in S5. She fared better than Gordie, at least, who stopped appearing but was still occasionally referred to as if he was still around.

I have a feeling that Georgette might be pushed forwards a little more as the friend, but Georgette lacks Rhoda’s directness and wisdom (and also, I don’t really want to see more of Georgette than we do. She feels too inauthentic and needy.

You are correct in assuming Georgette will be nudged into the role of Mary's confidant. Like all of the characters, Georgette evolved over time. As Mary herself grew in confidence and directness, it wasn't the worst thing for her friend to be the naive one.

Since I’m aiming to check out some of Rhoda along with MTM’s Fifth Season, I’d appreciate any input from seasoned viewers on how best to do it. I’m not bothered about strict chronology

If you're planning to just watch the wedding episodes, I suggest interjecting them in between S4 and S5 or anywhere early S5. If you plan to watch all of S1 of RHODA, you could aim for for the order in which the two shows aired. RHODA aired on Mondays (starting 9/9/74) and MTM aired Saturdays (starting 9/14/74) and they just alternate from there. That said, there's so little continuity between the shows it's hardly worth the effort. You could watch them in random batches and it would hardly matter.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

I forgot Penny showed up in S4; she also shows up later playing a different character.

Oh great. It'll be good to see her again.

The scriptwriter included a note describing Sue Ann as a "Betty White-type", but she wasn't originally considered.

Oh my. That sounds very much like what happened with Dorothy on The Golden Girls originally being written as a "Bea Arthur type".

I'm guessing the "Betty White type" at this time would have been the "on-screen" version of Sue Ann, as opposed to the more critical and difficult person Sue Ann became once the cameras stopped rolling.

Betty and her husband were great friends with Mary and her husband going back to the early 60s; White was often in the audience when MTM was filming. The producers weren't sure Mary would want to mix friendship with work, but Mary readily agreed with offering the role to Betty.

That's really nice. I had no idea.

Sue Ann was written as a one-off character.

I'd thought this might be the case given the huge gap between her first and second appearances.

Network pressure to give Rhoda her own show started early; definitely in S3 possibly as early as S2.

In that case I share your sentiment that we were lucky to have her for on the series for this long.

As well as a sign of the series' success, could the spinoff also be a sign of the times? When I think of some bigger hits of later decades (The Golden Girls, Friends, Will & Grace), the main ensembles remained all the way through and there were no spinoffs during their original runs. It seemed to be recognised that there was strength in not spreading things too thin.

Personally, I wish they had held off on giving Rhoda her own show until the end of MTM, just as they did with Lou.

I strongly suspect I'll end up feeling the same way.

I hadn't noticed before that Valerie didn't appear in the last couple episodes of S4. Possibly she was already prepping her own show, although it wasn't unusual for Rhoda to not appear in a episode or two.

For that very reason I probably wouldn't have even registered her absence in the last couple of episodes of Season Four.

She fared better than Gordie, at least, who stopped appearing but was still occasionally referred to as if he was still around.

Oh yipes. I must confess Gordie's absence hadn't actually registered with me until I read this. John Amos was off filming Good Times, no doubt.

Now I think of it, this explains why one of the other regular newsroom background characters was upgraded to a speaking part in occasional S4 episodes (I forget his name, but he's got shoulder-length blonde-ish hair and looks not unlike Foggy from the Daredevil series).

As Mary herself grew in confidence and directness, it wasn't the worst thing for her friend to be the naive one.

Good point. And I suppose it's good that there was no attempt to force in another Rhoda type.

If you're planning to just watch the wedding episodes, I suggest interjecting them in between S4 and S5 or anywhere early S5. If you plan to watch all of S1 of RHODA, you could aim for for the order in which the two shows aired. RHODA aired on Mondays (starting 9/9/74) and MTM aired Saturdays (starting 9/14/74) and they just alternate from there. That said, there's so little continuity between the shows it's hardly worth the effort. You could watch them in random batches and it would hardly matter.

Since you've persuaded me to watch the wedding episodes, I think it will be worth watching at least all the Rhoda episodes up to that point. Nine or ten episodes will be plenty to give me a feel for the series, so anything beyond that will depend on how much I enjoy the series and on the quality of the uploads.

I'm minded to do batches to save flipping between formats, and also because I'm sure alternating between nicely mastered MTM DVDs and less-than-first-class uploads of Rhoda could be quite jarring, but I'll take your advice and go by transmission dates with the first episodes of each series and the episodes that might reference the wedding.

 

[Crimson]

As well as a sign of the series' success, could the spinoff also be a sign of the times? When I think of some bigger hits of later decades

For American sitcoms, the 70s and 80s were the heyday of spin-offs at least when it came to lead/major ensemble characters being given their own shows. There wasn't a whole lot of precedent, if any, for a significant character being 'stolen' from a hit TV series for their own; I think that indicates just how popular Rhoda was in the early 70s. Once MAUDE became a hit, CBS started pushing harder for a Rhoda spin-off.

Now I think of it, this explains why one of the other regular newsroom background characters was upgraded to a speaking part in occasional S4 episodes (I forget his name, but he's got shoulder-length blonde-ish hair and looks not unlike Foggy from the Daredevil series).

Peter -- mostly a background extra, he only has two or three speaking parts. The actor was the son of the assistant director on the show.

And I suppose it's good that there was no attempt to force in another Rhoda type.

There are a few characters introduced over the next few seasons who seem to me be be attempts at giving Mary a Rhoda-replacement. Each of them only stuck around for a few episodes; much like Mary's suitors. I assume they were trials to see if they would have good chemistry with Mary and when that didn't pan out, they were dropped.

 

[Daniel Avery]

A friend of Valerie Harper's offered a great summation:
"Mary is who you wish you were. Rhoda is who you probably are. And Phyllis is who you're afraid you will become."

 

[tommie]

For American sitcoms, the 70s and 80s were the heyday of spin-offs at least when it came to lead/major ensemble characters being given their own shows.

I've mentioned it before, but when Family Guy choose Cleveland to do a spin-off from and not a more popular character like Quagmire, the producers said out-right that the reason they choose him was because he wasn't an important character to Family Guy and he was sort of underdeveloped enough so they could have freedom to do whatever they wanted. I think that makes a lot more sense as a lot of characters don't make sense outside their tv shows universe after a while.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Rhoda
Season One
Joe / You Can Go Home Again / I’ll Be Loving You, Sometimes / Parents’ Day / The Lady In Red / Pop Goes The Question / The Shower



I began watching this quite reluctantly. Now I’ve reached the point where I need to cut off and watch the first batch of MTM S5 that lead up to the wedding crossover, I feel reluctant to stop watching Rhoda.

The series won me over fairly quickly. There wasn’t a specific episode or scene that clinched it, but somewhere early on it just worked for me. This has been the biggest surprise because expectations were low and expected to be quite underwhelmed by it.

The opening titles are great. Very creative, and with a narration that’s surprisingly easy to remember verbatim very quickly. I love the little musical segue to the MTM theme when she mentions Minneapolis. And the nod to the beret-throwing scene in the closing titles is a lovely touch as well. Mary’s cameo after Rhoda’s proposal actually felt a little jarring, but was a nice bit of continuity. I understand she also originally appeared in a pre-title scene in the first Rhoda episode which was lost as the series was syndicated and released on home media. Shame.

The supporting cast doesn’t feel as well-defined as MTM, but this isn’t necessarily a bad thing. MTM is a series where most characters have a defining characteristic that sets them apart: Lou the grouchy boss; Ted the buffoon; Murray the reliable-but-snarky writer; Georgette the ingénue, and so on. In Minneapolis, Rhoda’s thing was as the direct and sometimes brash friend. But in New York this doesn’t set Rhoda apart from the rest of the ensemble. Most of the Rhoda ensemble isn’t as instantly-identifiable as that of MTM, but this works in the series’ favour by making it feel a little more real and nuanced.

There are still certain sitcom archetypes such as the critical, guilt-inducing mother and the henpecked father, but it all blends well and feels balanced. Rhoda even has its own ingénue, but Julie Kavner’s endearing Brenda is far preferable, since she’s played for truth and seems more age-appropriate than Georgette the child-woman (even though, surprisingly, Julie is only two years younger than Georgia Engel).

Julie’s face is familiar to me from The Tracy Ullman Show which I watched (and frequently re-watched from recordings) back in the Eighties. And it goes without saying her voice is always recognisable.

It’s good to see both Rhoda’s parents back to add further familiarity. I know there are inconsistencies (and arguably retcons) when it comes to Rhoda’s siblings, but it’s pleasing to see that no recasts have been necessary as sometimes happens when a one-off or occasional part becomes more regular. I actually really like the dispersed family unit we see, and I’ve especially enjoyed the scenes between Valerie Harper and Julie Kavner, where there’s a happy and supportive energy (I have no idea what was going on behind the cameras with this series, but this does feel like a genuinely happy set).

Given earlier thread comments about marrying off Rhoda too soon I suppose I’m now at a pivotal point. Already I can see the immediate change Rhoda and Joe’s marriage is going to have on the series. The Rhoda/Brenda scenes have been the heart of the series for me to date, and that living situation is going to change. And once it’s changed, no matter what happens in the storyline, it’s difficult to go back.

I like Joe as a character, and would have been fine with Rhoda having a steady partner for the series, but it does feel ridiculously quick to get married. There’s also something about it that feels it undermines the character of Rhoda. There was an attempt to mitigate this with her “I want to get married and I hate that I want to get married” speech to Joe, but for me it backfired and ended up coming across as a manipulation rather than an explanation.

My curiosity is definitely piqued to see where the series goes from here. The plan was to watch at least up to the wedding to give the series the best chance but, unless the wedding changes the series beyond recognition, I plan to continue watching.

 

[Crimson]

This has been the biggest surprise because expectations were low and expected to be quite underwhelmed by it.

Hopefully I didn't lower your expectations too much. RHODA is 'bad' only in comparison to MTM, which is one of the great American sitcoms. Even at its worst, I think RHODA is watchable and enjoyable.

Where you are in the series is not yet a good indicator of how well you would enjoy it as a whole. The producers of MTM had a firm hand in the early days of RHODA to help it with a strong start; their influence is less strong as the series progresses. You already seem aware of the show's upcoming pitfalls, so that foreknowledge may prevent you from being too disappointed.

A lot of my apathy towards RHODA is about what the show wasn't, rather than what it was. I said before, I wish Rhoda had remained on MTM until the end and only after gotten her own show. Alternately, I wish her show had been set in Minneapolis. I could see Brenda leaving NYC to get away from Ida, and sharing an apartment with Rhoda. This could have allowed for more frequent cross-overs with MTM. (Added bonus: less Ida. A hilarious character to be sure but, like Phyllis, best in smaller doses.) But, we got what we got.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Mary Tyler Moore
Season Five
Will Mary Richards Go To Jail? / Not Just Another Pretty Face / You Sometimes Hurt The One You Hate / Lou And That Woman / The Outsider / I Love A Piano / The New Sue Ann / Menage-a-Phyllis


Rhoda
Season One
Rhoda’s Wedding / The Honeymoon / 9-E Is Available / I’m A Little Late, Folks / Anything Wrong? / ’S Wonderful


Watching these MTM episodes in between batches of Rhoda episodes, and with them being the first ones since Valerie Harper had officially left the series, I was naturally looking for pieces of dialogue that alluded to Mary’s best friend’s new situation. And I found… nothing.

Rhoda didn’t even rate a mention until the episode where everyone was suddenly excited about Rhoda’s wedding and dashing about purchasing presents in readiness. It seems a really odd way to go about things. Continuity aside, you’d have thought the powers that be at CBS and MTM Enterprises would have encouraged a little horizontal marketing between the two series (it is a business, after all). But it seemed to be taken for granted that viewers would know where Rhoda was. Which takes some confidence, I suppose.

So far, at least, MTM hasn’t suffered too badly from Rhoda’s absence, although I’m sure I’d miss her far more if I were solely watching the parent series and not getting my fix of the spinoff. In fact The New Sue Ann is a favourite episode (not necessarily the favourite, but then I don’t know which episode would be).

The big crossover episodes with Rhoda’s wedding were great. Considering the two series’ different tones and voices, I was impressed with how integrated everyone was. I’d half expected minimal interactions with the broader cast, but the pre-wedding dinner at the Morgansterns’ was great. Rather than diluting things, I felt the new characters breathed new life into the long-familiar MTM cast. In particular I enjoyed the scene between Ida and Georgette which began with Ida asking Georgette to speak up and ended with her telling her not to speak up. Very impressive considering I’m finding Georgette grating on me a little in MTM at this point. I also loved the scene where Rhoda (unheard at the end of the intercom) gave Mary a few choice words for Phyllis and when Mary baulked, Brenda willingly took the phone and casually listened to the (presumably profane) tirade like a secretary taking minutes (“Uh huh. Yeah. Mmm hmm”). Oh, and Ida's fury towards a terrified Phyllis was glorious.

Brenda and Ida are probably my favourite characters in Rhoda, which seems odd since Rhoda herself was, for me, one of the best things about MTM. She’s still great here, of course, and I’d say casting all round is terrific. There’s no character that doesn’t work.

The guest-cast is fun for seeing actors who would go on to other things. Pamela Bellwood was great as Joe’s ex-girlfriend (I know another future Eighties prime time soap name will show up later as his ex-wife). Henry Winkler showed up again, and there was Isbecki from Cagney & Lacey as a randy sofa delivery man given short shrift by Rhoda.

I must confess to a weary feeling by seeing that Richard Schaal appears in the next episode as yet another character. I know he was married to Valerie Harper at this point, but really. This is at least his fifth unique role in the franchise. Chuckles The Clown aside, he’s been pretty much identical in his numerous MTM roles. Will his Rhoda one be any different? And I see he also played ANOTHER role in Phyllis.

Incidentally, I don’t believe there’s been any mention of Joe’s faith. Since Ida was previously so keen for Rhoda to marry someone from the Jewish faith I find myself wondering if there was a missed opportunity for some material there, even with a passing quip or comment.

Mary’s wall panelling was spotted in one of Rhoda’s one-off sets (I forget which). And I’ve also noticed the configuration of Apartment 9-E (Rhoda and Joe’s new apartment) flows in much the same way as Mary’s apartment.

Hopefully I didn't lower your expectations too much.

Not at all. You lowered them just enough. I'd far prefer to begin with lower expectations and be pleasantly surprised than vice versa.

The producers of MTM had a firm hand in the early days of RHODA to help it with a strong start; their influence is less strong as the series progresses. You already seem aware of the show's upcoming pitfalls, so that foreknowledge may prevent you from being too disappointed.

I hope so. As you can tell, I haven't avoided a bit of reading on the series up to a point so I'm aware of a couple of the turns it takes (such as in the third season).

Rhoda being married hasn't thrown things off as much as I feared it might, but it's still early days. So far, most of the episodes have been standard newlywed sitcom material: finding a place to live; ordering furniture; communication differences; and the pregnancy scare*. Rhoda herself has commented that as someone who has only been married a month or so she doesn't yet know what normal married life looks like. The acid test will be if the energy is still good a season or so down the line.



* I'm so glad Rhoda wasn't pregnant. As I mentioned, I thought the marriage proposal scene read as borderline manipulative on her part. If she'd become pregnant within weeks while claiming to use birth control that would have tipped the scales completely.

Alternately, I wish her show had been set in Minneapolis. I could see Brenda leaving NYC to get away from Ida, and sharing an apartment with Rhoda. This could have allowed for more frequent cross-overs with MTM.

That sounds like something I'd have enjoyed watching. Brenda being away from home for the first time would probably have echoes of early Mary Richards, which could have allowed more room for Rhoda to more noticeably remain the sassy streetwise character I loved on MTM.

Ida. A hilarious character to be sure but, like Phyllis, best in smaller doses.

I hadn't thought about that but I'm sure you're right. For me at this point in the series it's so far, so good, but her role's been relatively small to date and it's her scene-stealing that makes the character special.

 

[Crimson]

Rhoda didn’t even rate a mention until the episode where everyone was suddenly excited about Rhoda’s wedding and dashing about purchasing presents in readiness. It seems a really odd way to go about things. Continuity aside, you’d have thought the powers that be at CBS and MTM Enterprises would have encouraged a little horizontal marketing between the two series

Very odd indeed. I could have sworn there was at least a throwaway line early in S5 about Rhoda having moved, but I may be misremembering the scene between Mary and Georgette where Georgette offered to be Mary's new best friend. That happened when Mary & Rhoda were feuding, not after Rhoda left.

Other than the wedding episodes, I haven't watched RHODA in years. How was Rhoda's exit from Minneapolis handled on that show? Was she visiting NYC, met Joe and decided to stay, or was it indicated that she had already moved to NYC? I'm wondering how much the MTM producers were hedging their bets. If RHODA flopped, maybe the plan was to bring her back to MTM and treat her time in NYC as an extended visit.

Very impressive considering I’m finding Georgette grating on me a little in MTM at this point.

I'll admit that Georgette is my least favorite of the main MTM cast, although I'd stop well short of saying I find her grating. I'm glad her woman-child persona lightened a bit, because in the early episodes she came across as borderline "special".

I must confess to a weary feeling by seeing that Richard Schaal appears in the next episode as yet another character.

A curious thing about early American sitcoms (50s through 70s) is how often they would reuse actors. Some shows practically had a rotating troupe of actors who would play various supporting or background roles, so that you'd see the same faces over & over. I assume there was no anticipation of future viewership trends; no one envisioned a day when people would watch episodes in close succession, making the recurring faces so obvious. There's 2 1/2 years in between Schaal's appearances as Howard Arnell and Dino, so viewers at the time probably didn't notice too much. Even in syndication, the episodes would be weeks apart.

Watched in closer proximity, "I Was a Single for WJM" is more jarring. Not just because Schaal is playing yet another character, but here's an actor who had played Chuckles the Clown paired with the actress who had played Chuckles' daughter; only now they're husband and wife.

Incidentally, I don’t believe there’s been any mention of Joe’s faith. Since Ida was previously so keen for Rhoda to marry someone from the Jewish faith I find myself wondering if there was a missed opportunity for some material there, even with a passing quip or comment.

Judd Hirsh was the producers first choice for Joe; a Jewish actor from the Bronx, casting that would have pleased Ida immensely. With Joe Gerard in the role, I don't believe Joe was meant to be Jewish or that his faith (or lack of) was ever addressed on the show. One thing's for certain: RHODA wasn't going to address an interfaith couple. Aside from the MTM ethos of avoiding social issues, even in the age of Norman Lear interfaith marriages were controversial in 70s TV. In 1972, there had been a show called BRIDGET LOVES BERNIE about a Catholic woman marrying a Jewish man. It was a firestorm and quickly cancelled. RHODA wasn't going to repeat that.

Rhoda being married hasn't thrown things off as much as I feared it might, but it's still early days

The writers found the marriage challenging. By the mid-70s, American TV was getting a bit prudish and "sex" -- even among married couples -- was getting a bit taboo. The writers felt boxed in by the marriage.

 

[tommie]

Not surprised you're sold on Rhoda so early on, but at the same time, the possibilities for me were snuffed out after "The Wedding".

I thought the show started showing potential again in seasons 3-5. But it never quite got to the sweet spot. In fact, I might just prefer "Phyllis" (controversial opinion).

 

[Crimson]

I thought the show started showing potential again in seasons 3-5. But it never quite got to the sweet spot. In fact, I might just prefer "Phyllis" (controversial opinion).

I haven't seen enough of PHYLLIS to have an opinion on the show beyond being skeptical that Phyllis Lindstrom was a character to build an entire show around.

The differences between MTM and RHODA though is a case study in how a show can thrive when allowed to develop organically. MTM faced very little network interference in its early days. The network was just interested enough in the show, due to Mary's fame, to let it develop but otherwise were indifferent to it. Beyond the early dictate that Mary Richards couldn't be a divorcee, the network didn't meddle too much. RHODA faced nothing but network interference and increased pressures from would-be censors who wanted to rein in the boldness of early 70s TV. The RHODA creators were never really allowed to develop a clear vision for the show; they were too busy following orders.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

How was Rhoda's exit from Minneapolis handled on that show? Was she visiting NYC, met Joe and decided to stay

This was pretty much it. Rhoda was visiting her family for two weeks. On day one, Brenda was babysitting Joe's son and there were immediate sparks between Rhoda and Joe.

At the end of the pilot episode much was made of Rhoda agreeing to stay in New York, but it wasn't explicitly said to be a permanent situation. She'd initially prolonged her visit by calling in sick to work, was about to give up on this and return to Minneapolis (because Joe was busy with work), but Joe came by and persuaded her to stay. Even though it had a sense of importance, I still read it that she was agreeing to stay for the extra week she'd arranged.

Because of this, she could easily have returned to MTM after the Rhoda pilot without any continuity issues. It was only at the beginning of the second episode that Rhoda actually moved her belongings back to NYC.

A curious thing about early American sitcoms (50s through 70s) is how often they would reuse actors. Some shows practically had a rotating troupe of actors who would play various supporting or background roles, so that you'd see the same faces over & over. I assume there was no anticipation of future viewership trends; no one envisioned a day when people would watch episodes in close succession, making the recurring faces so obvious.

This makes perfect sense, and it wasn't unheard of with British series as well. By virtue of their much shorter seasons (or "series" as they were generally called here) British sitcoms probably had fewer examples of the same actor recurring in the same series in different roles, but it still happened.

I think Richard Schaal is probably more noticeable because of his screen presence. He looks distinctive, has a certain acting style and a good degree of charisma, so most of his episodes tend to be quite memorable (for me, at least). Plus I always have a fraction of a second where he appears where I think he's Don Murray and then realise it's the guy that looks like him.

In an episode I watched last night, Barbara Sharma returned for the second of what I understand will be a series of appearances as Myrna. Because of her distinctive style (the look and the voice) she's still clear in my mind from her solitary MTM appearance. But of course that was three years earlier by air date.

Judd Hirsh was the producers first choice for Joe

Oh, interesting. That could have taken things in a different direction.

With Joe Gerard in the role, I don't believe Joe was meant to be Jewish or that his faith (or lack of) was ever addressed on the show.

Yes, I feel if Joe was Jewish it certainly would have been mentioned or alluded to more strongly around the time of the wedding.

Despite the full white dress and Wagner's Bridal Chorus on the accordion, the wedding ceremony was actually fairly non-denominational and neutral. It took place in a non-religious setting (the Morganstern apartment) with Rhoda and Joe writing the vows. While this kind of setting is fairly standard for such occasions in television for budgetary reasons, given your comments about interfaith couples on TV perhaps this choice was as much to mitigate any potential controversy as anything else.

With the bonus being they could pour the money saved on the wedding venue into the brilliant and iconic location scenes of Rhoda legging it through New York in her wedding dress.

One thing's for certain: RHODA wasn't going to address an interfaith couple. Aside from the MTM ethos of avoiding social issues, even in the age of Norman Lear interfaith marriages were controversial in 70s TV. In 1972, there had been a show called BRIDGET LOVES BERNIE about a Catholic woman marrying a Jewish man. It was a firestorm and quickly cancelled. RHODA wasn't going to repeat that.

I must confess I find myself surprised by this. In large part, I suppose this is because MTM directly addressed Rhoda's faith several times (Some Of My Best Friends Are Rhoda springs to mind). It's a shame, because I'd have trusted a series from this stable would be able to at least acknowledge the relationship being interfaith in a sensitive, matter-of-fact way without it blowing up but, given your context, perhaps America just wasn't ready.

With Rhoda being the best friend of one of the (if not the) best-loved American sitcom characters of all time and leading her own sitcom, it seems a funny line in the sand. But then, as you said... sex.

And at least Rhoda herself was allowed to be Jewish, unlike The Lucie Arnaz Show a decade later where the interference of CBS execs sanitised the premise it was remaking to such a degree it was pointless.

By the mid-70s, American TV was getting a bit prudish and "sex" -- even among married couples -- was getting a bit taboo. The writers felt boxed in by the marriage.

And this possibly explains why Rhoda and Joe's bed is offscreen most of the time - unlike her previous residences where it's been part of the living room!

Funnily enough, there was a line in one of the post-wedding episodes that I thought was a little edgy for the time. Rhoda and Joe were in bed and one of them said they were just thinking back. When asked to what, they replied "half an hour ago", and both of them gave a knowing little smile.

Not surprised you're sold on Rhoda so early on, but at the same time, the possibilities for me were snuffed out after "The Wedding".

I was prepared for it go downhill, and it still might.

I'm in the latter part of Season One now, and still loving the series, but overall I enjoy Rhoda the wife less than I do Rhoda the wisecracking friend.

I find her tendency to want Joe to talk about his feelings and show his emotions all the time quite suffocating. In one of the episodes I watched she was so unhappy that he internalised his feelings that she chipped away at him, only easing off once she thought she'd seen a tear (which she victoriously showed him in the mirror).

It's probably quite a realistic study of an insecure newlywed who has grown up being conditioned to share all her feelings, marrying a man she's had barely any time to know and discovering he's her polar opposite emotionally. But her lack of acceptance of who he is as a person is still pretty ugly, and (most unforgivable of all) too awkward to be truly funny.

In fact, I might just prefer "Phyllis" (controversial opinion).

Well, I wasn't planning to watch Rhoda and was sold after some encouragement, so I might be open to persuasion on Phyllis.