JR Announcing Bobby And Jenna's Engagement

[Kenny Coyote]

I think that during the original miniseries, J.R. resented the fact that he was slaving away at the office while Bobby was out wining and dining clients and politicians.

As the series progressed and Larry Hagman developed the J.R. character, then I agree with you-- he began to relish the fight.

@Lastkidpicked, that's such an interesting idea I think it's worthy of a thread! I'm gonna start on it now.

 

[Luke_Krebbs_Ewing]

Bobby was still in love with Pam & Pam was still in love with Bobby. It was only through interference from Katherine & JR that they split up.

I think it's clearly evident at the Ball that they both still cared for each other. Hence why Bobby got mad at JR for upsetting her. He saw the reaction on Pam's face, how upset she was & in that moment he knew that she still loved him.

Bobby clearly loved Jenna but not in the same way that he loved Pam. Pam was special to him. I think he realised he was torn between the two of them, he loved Jenna but he loved Pam more. When push came to shove he finally realised he wanted to be with Pam.

 

[Chris2]

Poor Pam! First of all, she was married to Bobby who died and then came back. Then, she was with Mark Graison who died and then came back and then died again.

And out in the driveway is Wes Parmalee, who might be Jock who died and then came back.

Add to this a dead dove looking thing that the wardrobe department put on her head, and things just couldn't get any worse for Pam, right?

Until at the wedding, Pam is fully in her wedding dress (with the dead dove thing on her head) and walks around the corner just in time to hear Ray tell Bobby, "You are walking down the isle with Pam while Jenna is carrying your child!"

BHWAHAHA! I know it wasn't meant to be funny, but it really was.

Almost like something from a dream, isn't it, Pam?

Don’t forget Pam’s mother, whom Pam thought was dead and then came back.

 

[Kenny Coyote]

Don’t forget Pam’s mother, whom Pam thought was dead and then came back.

Then Pam did after all the work of finding her, Rebecca favored Cliff. Then after Cliff embezzled from her, she still favored Cliff, buying him a company. She barely ever visited Pam and Christopher. Then when she died,her last words toPam were to take care of Cliff.

 

[Chris2]

I think it’s because Cliff was more of a challenge - he was slower to open up to Rebecca. Pam made it too easy for Rebecca, forgiving her abandonment in an instant. Pammy needed to learn how to play hard to get.

 

[Kenny Coyote]

I think it’s because Cliff was more of a challenge - he was slower to open up to Rebecca. Pam made it too easy for Rebecca, forgiving her abandonment in an instant. Pammy needed to learn how to play hard to get.

That further shows what a rotten mother Rebecca was. Children aren't supposed to have to figure out a strategy so that they can be treated equally by their parents. If a kid has to avoid being too nice to her mother and learn how to play hard to get, in order to gain her mother's love, that mother has no business being a parent. Of course we new that Rebecca was an awful woman already based on her abandoning her young children and then letting them believe she was dead while she slept her way up to thee top, marrying her billionaire boss. Then even after becoming wealthy, does she decide to return to her children to help them? No. She lets them believe she's dead, leaving them in the care of a drunk. More money for Rebecca. Then look at how the one child she did raise turned out - her demon spawn Katherine.

 

[Lastkidpicked]

Of course we new that Rebecca was an awful woman already based on her abandoning her young children and then letting them believe she was dead while she slept her way up to thee top, marrying her billionaire boss. Then even after becoming wealthy, does she decide to return to her children to help them? No. She lets them believe she's dead, leaving them in the care of a drunk. More money for Rebecca. Then look at how the one child she did raise turned out - her demon spawn Katherine.

Looking at how they were raised, it's amazing Cliff turned out as well as he did!

 

[Kenny Coyote]

Looking at how they were raised, it's amazing Cliff turned out as well as he did!

Are you sure you don't mean Pam? I don't know what it is about Cliff that would be considered to have turned out well. Bobby bent over backwards trying to be a good brother in law to Cliff and still Cliff refused to reciprocate. When asked wouldn't he rather have Bobby win the contest for Ewing Oil than JR, Cliff said he saw no difference between the two; they were both Ewings. Pam continually tried to help him and still Cliff screwed Pam over, both in business and personally. JR, when talking about how dumb Cliff was said: "I don't know how he manages to feed himself." Bobby ran towards gunfire to tackle Cliff because he knew Cliff was too damn dumb to get down on his own volition. Cliff thanked Bobby by screwing with his marriage, getting Pam to use Bobby's money against him and the rest of the family. Just as in "Spy In The House" when Cliff could have come forward to help Pam by saying she had nothing to do with the files leaked and it had been Julie, Cliff once again refused to help Pam. Cliff took advantage of Sue Ellen's vulnerability by starting an affair with her with the intention of embarrassing JR. He even tried to impregnate her and then publicly claimed he had, getting it in the newspapers. No wonder it was so satisfying watching JR grind Cliff out like a roach underneath the heel of his boot.

 

[Lastkidpicked]

Are you sure you don't mean Pam? I don't know what it is about Cliff that would be considered to have turned out well.

Oh, Kenny! You know how much I enjoy it when we disagree. It gives us a good chance for a little bit of respectful back and forth.

I definitely give Cliff some credit for making the best with what he had:

Cliff's mom abandoned him and his sister, and his dad was a drunk.

Cliff paid his own way through college to get a law degree. And this was before student loans were widely available, so he really had to work hard to earn enough money for college.

And he rose high enough in politics to be a thorn in the side of J.R. Ewing, and that is not easy to do.

He beat a murder charge brought against him by a corrupt sheriff and a family with unlimited money.

Cliff hit the biggest natural gas field in all of Texas history, and did so because he refused to give up on Dandy Dandridge.

And he became a 50% partner in Ewing Oil. (I love the scene when J.R. and Cliff realize that they are partners. "Oh my God" they say in chorus. "You and I are partners?"

 

[Kenny Coyote]

Oh, Kenny! You know how much I enjoy it when we disagree. It gives us a good chance for a little bit of respectful back and forth.

I definitely give Cliff some credit for making the best with what he had:

Cliff's mom abandoned him and his sister, and his dad was a drunk.

Cliff paid his own way through college to get a law degree. And this was before student loans were widely available, so he really had to work hard to earn enough money for college.

And he rose high enough in politics to be a thorn in the side of J.R. Ewing, and that is not easy to do.

He beat a murder charge brought against him by a corrupt sheriff and a family with unlimited money.

Cliff hit the biggest natural gas field in all of Texas history, and did so because he refused to give up on Dandy Dandridge.

And he became a 50% partner in Ewing Oil. (I love the scene when J.R. and Cliff realize that they are partners. "Oh my God" they say in chorus. "You and I are partners?"

I basically agree with what your reasons that he turned out well based on his achievements. Those are impressive achievements for a guy who was raised by an alcoholic father and no mother. My answer is so different than yours because I was thinking of him based on how his character developed (or didn't). Cliff's character defects and flaws were almost endless.

Based solely on achievements, I find working his way through college and getting a law degree admirable and impressive. Now, think about how much better a quality of life he could have had if he'd had the character and judgement to decide: "I'm going to take my legal qualifications, my work ethic and steer clear of the Ewing family. I'm not going to try to ruin them. I'm going to go in my own direction and use my abilities in the legal field to try to improve my life instead of trying to ruin their lives, because living well is the best revenge."

 

[Lastkidpicked]

Now, think about how much better a quality of life he could have had if he'd had the character and judgement to decide: "I'm going to take my legal qualifications, my work ethic and steer clear of the Ewing family. I'm not going to try to ruin them. I'm going to go in my own direction and use my abilities in the legal field to try to improve my life instead of trying to ruin their lives, because living well is the best revenge."

Yes! And this is a theme we see over and over, especially in the later years. Many of the characters, including Cliff just keep coming back around for more abuse.

Don't you ever feel like yelling at the TV, "You have plenty of money! Just leave town and start a new life somewhere else. You'd be much happier!"

 

[Kenny Coyote]

Yes! And this is a theme we see over and over, especially in the later years. Many of the characters, including Cliff just keep coming back around for more abuse.

Don't you ever feel like yelling at the TV, "You have plenty of money! Just leave town and start a new life somewhere else. You'd be much happier!"

Yes, all the time! Cliff lost everything that you would reasonably think mattered to him because of his decision to spend his whole life trying to get revenge. He lost every girlfriend he ever had because even in the scenes when he was with his girlfriends, he was talking about JR. Afton was the one who was probably the best suited for him and she wanted to marry him. It was amazing. He had a completely dedicated girlfriend like Afton and ruined his relationship to try to bed his rival's wife? Who in his right mind would give up Afton for a nightmare like Sue Ellen? She had every problem you could imagine. Alcoholic? Yes. Snobby? Yes. Shallow? Yes. Needy? Abrasive? Low self-esteem? Yes!

There was a scene where Cliff was coming out of his coma and Afton had been waiting by his side the whole time and his first word is "Sue"? Even in his coma he's fantasizing about revenge. I realize that's what the show needed to work, to have someone who would keep coming back for more punishment no matter what had been done to him. The Barnes-Ewing feud wouldn't have lasted very long otherwise. They needed to have a guy who while he didn't exactly like pain, showed through his actions that he didn't hate it either.

I don't see a whole lot of value in revenge. I learned a long time ago that living well is the best revenge.

 

[Lastkidpicked]

Yes, all the time! Cliff lost everything that you would reasonably think mattered to him because of his decision to spend his whole life trying to get revenge.

If you could go back in time and explain that to Cliff, imagine how much better his life would have been!

 

[Lastkidpicked]

I don't see a whole lot of value in revenge. I learned a long time ago that living well is the best revenge.

And without revenge on his mind, Cliff could do great things. I love that in Conundrum, Cliff becomes acting president of the United States.

The first time it aired, I hated these scenes because Cliff's life seemed too perfect. Perfect wife, perfect kids, perfect house.

But viewing it on rewatch, I realize they did it completely over the top to prove a (humorous) point. Enjoy the trip down memory lane with me, and you will enjoy it more when you realize that yes, it was written to be over the top and slightly funny.

Enjoy the clip, and I hope it makes you chuckle a bit.

 

[Chris2]

That further shows what a rotten mother Rebecca was. Children aren't supposed to have to figure out a strategy so that they can be treated equally by their parents. If a kid has to avoid being too nice to her mother and learn how to play hard to get, in order to gain her mother's love, that mother has no business being a parent. Of course we new that Rebecca was an awful woman already based on her abandoning her young children and then letting them believe she was dead while she slept her way up to thee top, marrying her billionaire boss. Then even after becoming wealthy, does she decide to return to her children to help them? No. She lets them believe she's dead, leaving them in the care of a drunk. More money for Rebecca. Then look at how the one child she did raise turned out - her demon spawn Katherine.

We are in full agreement here, Kenny. I always hated how righteous Rebecca became when it came to the Ewings and JR. You abandoned your young children to a drunken murderer, dear. You don’t have the moral high ground. I wish someone had said that to her.

 

[Kenny Coyote]

We are in full agreement here, Kenny. I always hated how righteous Rebecca became when it came to the Ewings and JR. You abandoned your young children to a drunken murderer, dear. You don’t have the moral high ground. I wish someone had said that to her.

I would have loved that!

A similar idea that occurred to me was Miss Ellie telling her: You know what they say about people who live in glass houses, Rebecca. You ran out on yours before you'd even laid the foundation!