Yes, Russia Likely Did Swing Votes For Donald Trump

SueEllenRules!

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Yes, Russia Likely Did Swing Votes For Donald Trump
And he didn’t keep talking about the WikiLeaks emails stolen by Russia because he thought voters didn’t care.

WASHINGTON ― As John Bentley waited in line to see President Barack Obama campaign for Hillary Clinton just days before the 2016 election, he worried that he’d been unable to persuade his son to cast a ballot for Clinton, too.

The 24-year-old believed Clinton was untrustworthy, with new emails released by WikiLeaks providing fresh proof on a daily basis.

“Can you believe it?” wondered Bentley, a 70-year-old African-American man and a lifelong Democrat.

Fifteen months later, special counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation has found that the skepticism that afflicted people like Bentley’s son was no fluke. It was the result of deliberate efforts by the Russian government to hurt Clinton and help Donald Trump win the presidency ― efforts that included the targeting of young African-Americans like Bentley’s son.

“Defendants and their co-conspirators began to encourage U.S. minority groups not to vote in the 2016 U.S. presidential election or to vote for a third-party U.S. presidential candidate,” according to a Feb. 16 grand jury indictment obtained by Mueller.

In fact, the day before Obama visited Jacksonville, Florida, to support Clinton, Russians purchased an ad for the Instagram account of a fake group called Blacktivist. It urged African-Americans to vote for a third-party candidate. “Choose peace and vote for Jill Stein. Trust me, it’s not a wasted vote,” the ad read, according to Mueller’s indictment.

It is impossible to know precisely how many voters nationally stayed home or voted for a third-party candidate because of the Russians’ social media campaign. Nevertheless, the details from the indictment raise new questions about the legitimacy of Trump’s victory.

There’s no question that it mattered. There’s no question that they thought it mattered.
— Democratic pollster Mark Mellman

While Trump maintains there is no proof that the Russian assistance affected the election, the contours of that final month of campaigning and the closeness of the tally suggest that the opposite is true: that it is highly unlikely the Russian efforts did not affect the outcome.

“There’s no question that it mattered,” said Democratic pollster Mark Mellman. “There’s no question that they thought it mattered. There’s no question that the Hillary Clinton folks thought it mattered.”

Over the entire final month of the race, Trump essentially centered his campaign on talking about the emails stolen by Russian intelligence and then released through its allied group WikiLeaks. The messages, which were sent to and from Clinton campaign chair John Podesta, cast Clinton in a bad light. “We love WikiLeaks!” Trump would tell his rally crowds and live TV audiences, urging them to go to the website and read the emails for themselves. “Boy, do we love WikiLeaks.”

Democrats and even some Republican consultants said the Trump campaign would not have based its closing strategy on that theme if it were not working.

“You clearly wouldn’t do that if you didn’t think that was effective,” said Rick Tyler, a GOP consultant who worked for Texas Sen. Ted Cruz’s presidential campaign during the primaries.

Although Trump lost the popular tally by nearly 3 million votes nationally, he won three states that most observers expected to go to Clinton by a total margin of 77,744. Were the Russian efforts enough to have moved 77,744 votes in Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania?

Clinton supporters argue that when an election is that close, every factor is potentially a game-changer. For example, shifts in polling numbers suggest that former FBI Director James Comey’s letters reopening, and then reclosing, the investigation into Clinton’s use of a private email server when she was secretary of state could also have cost her the election ― an argument Clinton herself has made.

One Republican-leaning pollster, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the question is impossible to quantify with any certainty. To move that many votes in those three states, the pollster said, would mean moving about 600,000 votes nationally ― or about half a percentage point. That said, he added that Trump’s success in using WikiLeaks to hammer on about emails and thereby remind voters of Clinton’s biggest vulnerability ― the FBI probe into her emails ― clearly makes that kind of vote shift plausible.

“I’m much more open to the notion that it mattered,” he said.

Exit polling suggests that voters’ concern about Clinton and emails — and Trump’s pounding on that theme with the help of WikiLeaks in the final weeks — indeed made a difference.

In Michigan, for instance, 60 percent of the electorate was bothered by the email issue, and 75 percent of those voters supported Trump. Relatedly, a quarter of Michigan voters settled on a candidate in the final month. That group broke for Trump 52 to 37 percent, while those who decided earlier voted for Clinton 50 to 47 percent.

They engaged in operations primarily intended to communicate derogatory information about Hillary Clinton, to denigrate other candidates such as Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio, and to support Bernie Sanders and then-candidate Donald Trump.
— Special counsel Robert Mueller's indictment against multiple Russians

Trump has been deeply sensitive to the appearance that he did not earn the presidency on his own. That’s one of the reasons, according to those close to him, why he has repeatedly pushed the false claim that he lost the popular vote because “millions” of undocumented immigrants supposedly cast ballots for Clinton. It is also why Trump has resisted admitting that Russians interfered in the election at all, let alone tried to boost his candidacy, sources close to him told HuffPost on condition of anonymity.

The fact of Russian interference in the election and Russian President Vladimir Putin’s preference for Trump was detailed in a Jan. 6, 2017, report released by the U.S. intelligence agencies. That conclusion was reinforced by Mueller’s Feb. 16, 2018, indictment.

“They engaged in operations primarily intended to communicate derogatory information about Hillary Clinton, to denigrate other candidates such as Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio, and to support Bernie Sanders and then-candidate Donald Trump,” the indictment states.

For over a year, Trump questioned the conclusion of U.S. intelligence, as he continued to play up the possibility that the culprit in the hacking of Democratic National Committee emails was someone other than Russia. At various times, he suggested it might have been China, a 400-pound guy in his bed or someone from New Jersey.

At last, he appears to have abandoned that argument in the wake of Mueller’s indictment against 13 actual Russians and a Russian government-run group that employs hundreds of internet “trolls” who create and disseminate propaganda to influence foreign elections. Instead, the president turned to claiming that the Russian assistance did not have any effect.
“The results of the election were not impacted,” Trump wrote the afternoon the indictment was released.

The following day, he chided his national security adviser, H.R. McMaster, for not making that assertion at a conference in Europe where McMaster acknowledged that it was now “incontrovertible” that Russia had interfered in the election. “General McMaster forgot to say that the results of the 2016 election were not impacted or changed by the Russians,” Trump tweeted ― and then proceeded to cite a string of conspiracy theories promoted by Fox News that he believed McMaster also should have mentioned.

You can’t say that what you were doing was effective, but what the Russians were doing wasn’t effective.
— Republican consultant Rick Tyler

Some Trump supporters argue that the value of the ads the Russians bought on Facebook and other social media platforms was a pittance compared to the total amount of money spent on the race, so they couldn’t have mattered at all. Others simply insist there is no proof that American voters were affected by the thousands of fake news posts written by Russians and then spread via fake accounts and computer programs.

And former Trump campaign aides, speaking on condition of anonymity, said neither Trump nor campaign officials were measuring the effect of his WikiLeaks speeches.

“Just trolling,” said one aide. “What we know worked was ‘Crooked Hillary.’ ‘Clinton Cash’ had impact on Dems ― Bernie ‘Bros’ ― and independents.” The aide added that the only emails WikiLeaks had were “BS Podesta and DNC.”

But Mellman, the Democratic pollster, said it is disingenuous to draw distinctions between the DNC emails released by WikiLeaks and the separate State Department emails when the average voter was aware only that Clinton had been under investigation for something to do with emails.

“There’s no question that the whole email controversy did damage Hillary Clinton,” he said, adding that many voters found the issue confusing and that Trump took advantage of that confusion. “If the press was talking about emails, it was bad for Hillary Clinton.”

Tyler, the Republican consultant, wonders how Trump supporters can argue that the social media ads and fake stories had no impact, when it was exactly the sort of thing the Trump campaign was doing itself. “You can’t say that what you were doing was effective, but what the Russians were doing wasn’t effective,” he said.

Yes, Russia Likely Did Swing Votes For Donald Trump - HuffPost https://apple.news/ANFXvQsIEQaW2Z7XGOCD16w
 

Frank Underwood

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Funny how the article is mostly focused on the emails. It even tries to conflate the indictment with the email hacks, even though they're not connected!

Talk about a disinformation campaign. The Russian memes weren't any different from your run of the mill conservative propaganda.

And as for the emails, isn't it nice to know that the act of being hacked absolves you from being corrupt and dishonest, and entitles you to the presidency? Only in America!

These articles always mention how it's "impossible to know" how many people were influenced by propaganda. Propaganda existed before the Russians, and it will exist after. It's up to the voters to research the candidates and educate themselves. If you vote based on what a Facebook ad says, you're hardly an informed, serious voter.
 
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SueEllenRules!

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How did I know who would be the first to comment on this article? :think: And the purpose of that comment would be to deny/minimize/justify the impact of Russian interference in the election. :NI:
 

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How did I know who would be the first to comment on this article? :think: And the purpose of that comment would be to deny/minimize/justify the impact of Russian interference in the election. :NI:
Yes, but his point is that Russian interference didn't (as far as we know) change ballots. So it's just typical propaganda.
 

Frank Underwood

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How did I know who would be the first to comment on this article? :think:
What's your point? You were the first to comment on my post about Trump's budget. Am I wrong in thinking this is a discussion board with more than one point of view?

And the purpose of that comment would be to deny/minimize/justify the impact of Russian interference in the election. :NI:
Minimize, yes. Deny/justify, no.

Other people who have minimized their impact include the Deputy Attorney General and journalist Adrian Chen. The latter profiled this particular Russian troll farm back in 2015.


When Congressmen start conflating fake ads with Pearl Harbor and 9/11, it's clear that hysteria has reached epic proportions.


SueEllenRules! said:
As far as we know. You mean it can’t be proven? Neither can the theory of evolution, but I wouldn’t label it ‘propaganda.’
The propaganda I was referring to were the social media ads and memes themselves.
 
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SueEllenRules!

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What's your point?
To be as succinct as possible, my point is that it doesn’t bother you in the least that a hostile foreign power potentially installed the current American president. By my way of thinking, most Americans should be outraged by that prospect, but you despise Hillary Clinton far too deeply to be outraged by a little thing like that.

You were the first to comment on my post about Trump's budget.
What's your point? You’re the first to comment on any post I make, especially if the subject matter is even remotely related to the object of your animosity.

Am I wrong in thinking this is a discussion board with more than one point of view?
The only points of view you’re interested in are your own and anyone who’ll back you up. Otherwise, it goes in one ear and out the other, immediately followed by a response akin to Trump’s ‘fake news’ mantra.

Minimize, yes. Deny/justify, no.
And as for the emails, isn't it nice to know that the act of being hacked absolves you from being corrupt and dishonest, and entitles you to the presidency? Only in America!
Sounds like justification to me.
 
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Frank Underwood

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To be as succinct as possible, my point is that it doesn’t bother you in the least that a hostile foreign power potentially installed the current American president. By my way of thinking, most Americans should be outraged by that prospect, but you despise Hillary Clinton far too deeply to be outraged by a little thing like that.
This is the hysteria I'm talking about. "Installed" the current president how? By releasing emails exposing the corruption and lies of Hillary and the DNC? I suppose we should have let that slide. Or was it through a series of fake ads that were both pro- and anti-Trump, many of which were released after the election? Yeah, sounds like a well orchestrated plot to me.

Foreign powers shouldn't meddle in our elections, but I'll be damned if I allow that to throw my critical thinking skills out the window. It's gotten so insane that people are conflating hacked emails and fake ads with violent atrocities such as Pearl Harbor and 9/11. I'm trying to keep things in perspective, and you equate that with not caring because I despise Hillary.

What's your point? You’re the first to comment on any post I make, especially if the subject matter is even remotely related to the object of your animosity.
First off, I'm one of a few people that still posts here. Secondly, You've made many posts that I haven't commented on at all. Lastly, I post when I have a counter perspective.

The only points of view you’re interested in are your own and anyone who’ll back you up. Otherwise, it goes in one ear and out the other, immediately followed by a response akin to Trump’s ‘fake news’ mantra.
Who backs me up? Snarky and I agree the most, but we've had some big disagreements as well. If all I was interested in was affirmation, I sure as hell wouldn't be posting here.

It's interesting how you make me the subject, rather than the person or ideas being discussed. I'm constantly posting videos, articles, policy records, direct quotes, etc. to support my perspective. You respond by either ignoring the substance of my posts entirely or by making a hyperbolic statement about how "that bitch Hillary had it coming." Your "in one ear and out the other" nonsense is clearly projection since you never directly address the reasons why I believe what I do. In contrast, I do read your posts in full and respond to the substance of them.

Not agreeing with you is not the same as not listening to you. And as for only being interested in my own point of view and those who back me up, that describes you & Gabriel last year.

Sounds like justification to me.
No, but I do think it's ridiculous that people expect the content of the emails not to matter because of how they were acquired. It's possible to be both anti-hacking AND anti-corruption.

Russia-Meddling.jpg
 
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SueEllenRules!

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This is the hysteria I'm talking about. "Installed" the current president how?
Oh, I don't know. By potentially swaying the 77,000 votes that handed the election to Trump? Other than that, nothing I guess.

By releasing emails exposing the corruption and lies of Hillary and the DNC? I suppose we should have let that slide.
Why not? You're willing to let slide the corruption and lies of Trump and the Russian government.

Or was it through a series of fake ads that were both pro- and anti-Trump, many of which were released after the election? Yeah, sounds like a well orchestrated plot to me.
I'd have an easier time convincing you of the validity of Trump's claim that he lost the popular vote because millions of illegals cast ballots for Hillary. You'd probably believe the hacking was committed by some 400-pound guy sitting on his bed in New Jersey, too.

Foreign powers shouldn't meddle in our elections, but
There should be no 'but' after that statement.

I'll be damned if I allow that to throw my critical thinking skills out the window.
Too late. Although, let's be real: the reason they went out the window is your willingness to defy all logic over the ax you're grinding for Hillary Clinton.

It's gotten so insane that people are conflating hacked emails and fake ads with violent atrocities such as Pearl Harbor and 9/11.
Yeah, who really cares about something as insignificant as Russia successfully choosing the leader of the free world?

I'm trying to keep things in perspective, and you equate that with not caring because I despise Hillary.
If the ax handle fits...

First off, I'm one of a few people that still posts here. Secondly, You've made many posts that I haven't commented on at all.
Name 10. Or even 5.

Lastly, I post when I have a counter perspective.
Which, oddly enough, is every time I make any comment.

No, but I do think it's ridiculous that people expect the content of the emails not to matter because of how they were acquired. It's possible to be both anti-hacking AND anti-corruption.
Let's see. The content of Hillary's emails versus interference in an American presidential election by a profoundly corrupt foreign government and potential collusion of the Trump campaign with that government, which would constitute treason. Not to mention the fact that the Russians fully intend to interfere in subsequent elections. Gee, how do I decide which should concern me more?
 

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Oh, I don't know. By potentially swaying the 77,000 votes that handed the election to Trump? Other than that, nothing I guess.
If 13 Russian trolls were able to sway 77,000 voters with blatant propaganda, it can't say much for their intelligence. Of course, this argument keeps Hillary and establishment Dems from doing any sort of self-reflection. Whenever they're criticized for their policies, lies, and corruption, they can scream "Russia" and expect that to absolve them of their sins.

And to your point that I "don't care" because the ads were anti-Hillary, I actually do believe the indictments are valid. I just believe the effectiveness of the social media campaign has been blown out of proportion. I don't think I'm too far off the mark considering journalists who've looked into this Russian troll farm, as well as the Deputy Attorney General agree.

Why not? You're willing to let slide the corruption and lies of Trump and the Russian government.
Except I haven't. I've called out members of the Trump team for laundering money for Russian oligarchs, as well as committing perjury. I said Trump should be charged with obstruction of justice if he continues meddling in the investigation, and I even said the investigation has resulted in legitimate charges. It really shows how little you pay attention.


On the other hand, you let draconian policies, public and private positions, and primary rigging slide from your candidate and party.

I'd have an easier time convincing you of the validity of Trump's claim that he lost the popular vote because millions of illegals cast ballots for Hillary. You'd probably believe the hacking was committed by some 400-pound guy sitting on his bed in New Jersey, too.
I've said on several occasions that Trump's claim about millions voting illegally for Hillary was one of the most absurd things he's said (and that's saying something).

The hacking, on the other hand, is not as cut and dried. The fact that the DNC had a private cyber security firm inspect their servers instead of the FBI and Homeland Security is strange. Also, a group of former intelligence officials did an independent analysis, and they believe the "hack" was actually a leak by someone with physical access to the servers.

This is the same group that discovered the mishandling of intelligence that led to the Iraq War in 2003.


There should be no 'but' after that statement.
If you reject nuance, sure. However, I don't. To admit Russia interfered doesn't mean you also have to agree with the hysteria it's risen to.

Too late. Although, let's be real: the reason they went out the window is your willingness to defy all logic over the ax you're grinding for Hillary Clinton.
I've already proven this to be false with my prior responses to you. You're the one who keeps making these hyperbolic assertions because Trump excites your lizard brain.

I've also said in the past that the electoral college should have been abolished long ago, and that Hillary should be president based on the popular vote. Swing and a miss.

Yeah, who really cares about something as insignificant as Russia successfully choosing the leader of the free world?
Through memes and emails? And here we've been using bombs, drones and missiles to orchestrate regime change.

Maybe Hillary should consult Russian trolls the next time she wants to influence an election in Palestine (or Iraq, or Libya, or Syria, or...).


If the ax handle fits...
It doesn't, but your partisan brain thinks it does.

Name 10. Or even 5.
"Norwegians reject Trump's immigration offer"

"The Wall Street Journal: Trump lawyer arranged $130,000 payment for adult-film star's silence"

"At least 9 in Trump's orbit had contact with Russians"

"Ivanka, Trump Jr. nearly indicted for fraud in 2012; $50K donated to DA after case dropped"

"Khizr Khan on DACA: Trump is 'illiterate and uneducated'"

"Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke threatens Alaska Senator Lisa Murkowski over healthcare vote"

"Hillary Clinton to 'let her guard down' in candid 2016 election memoir"

"This is our country now: new White House Communications Director lashes colleagues in obscene rant"

"This is our country now: Boy Scouts apologize over Trump’s remarks at Jamboree"

"Poll: 47% of Republicans believe Trump really won the popular vote"

Which, oddly enough, is every time I make any comment.
Because, oddly enough, this is a discussion board. You've engaged me many times when you disagreed with an article or comment I posted.

If you want to post threads here without me replying to them, I'm happy to comply. But if that's the case, I expect the same courtesy in return.

Let's see. The content of Hillary's emails versus interference in an American presidential election by a profoundly corrupt foreign government and potential collusion of the Trump campaign with that government, which would constitute treason. Not to mention the fact that the Russians fully intend to interfere in subsequent elections. Gee, how do I decide which should concern me more?
What about the DNC saying they have the right to choose their candidate any way they wish, and their agreement to be neutral is not binding? And that came out in court after the email hacks. This is where Russia-Gate has screwed up people's moral codes. They're willing to overlook lies and corruption, so long as it doesn't come from Trump or Russia.

I look at all of the above and think they're all corrupt and full of bullshit, and yet I'm somehow the unreasonable one. Go figure.
 
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SueEllenRules!

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If you reject nuance, sure. However, I don't. To admit Russia interfered doesn't mean you also have to agree with the hysteria it's risen to.
There's no nuance when it comes to the pure outrage all reasonable Americans should feel about the Russian government interfering in our elections.

I've already proven this to be false with my prior responses to you. You're the one who keeps making these hyperbolic assertions because Trump excites your lizard brain.
That's means a lot coming from the guy who never misses any opportunity to trash Hillary Clinton. Even when it means letting a sleazeball like Trump off the hook for Russia-gate.

Maybe Hillary should consult Russian trolls the next time she wants to influence an election in Palestine (or Iraq, or Libya, or Syria, or...).
If only you were one-tenth as interested in Russia's influence in American elections.

"Norwegians reject Trump's immigration offer"

"The Wall Street Journal: Trump lawyer arranged $130,000 payment for adult-film star's silence"

"At least 9 in Trump's orbit had contact with Russians"

"Ivanka, Trump Jr. nearly indicted for fraud in 2012; $50K donated to DA after case dropped"

"Khizr Khan on DACA: Trump is 'illiterate and uneducated'"

"Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke threatens Alaska Senator Lisa Murkowski over healthcare vote"

"Hillary Clinton to 'let her guard down' in candid 2016 election memoir"

"This is our country now: new White House Communications Director lashes colleagues in obscene rant"

"This is our country now: Boy Scouts apologize over Trump’s remarks at Jamboree"

"Poll: 47% of Republicans believe Trump really won the popular vote"
Congratulations. Only half of those are threads I posted more than 6 months ago. What's more, 3 out of 10 actually reference Hillary Clinton and yet, you somehow managed to contain yourself.

What about the DNC saying they have the right to choose their candidate any way they wish, and their agreement to be neutral is not binding? And that came out in court after the email hacks. This is where Russia-Gate has screwed up people's moral codes. They're willing to overlook lies and corruption, so long as it doesn't come from Trump or Russia.

I look at all of the above and think they're all corrupt and full of bullshit, and yet I'm somehow the unreasonable one. Go figure.
At least you have your priorities straight. Why concern yourself with treason when you can b!tch about the DNC instead?

If you want to post threads here without me replying to them, I'm happy to comply.
I'll gladly take you up on that. I hope that applies to posts I make on all other threads as well.

But if that's the case, I expect the same courtesy in return.
Consider it done.

Because, oddly enough, this is a discussion board. You've engaged me many times when you disagreed with an article or comment I posted.
Well, those days are officially over because you've finally alienated me to the point that I'm no longer interested in reading or responding to any more ridiculous horsesh!t. Welcome to my ignore list.
 
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Frank Underwood

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There's no nuance when it comes to the pure outrage all reasonable Americans should feel about the Russian government interfering in our elections.
It's scary to be living in a time when nuance and critical thinking are replaced with sensationalism, hyperbole, and hysteria.

That's means a lot coming from the guy who never misses any opportunity to trash Hillary Clinton. Even when it means letting a sleazeball like Trump off the hook for Russia-gate.
My criticisms of Hillary are based solely on her policy record and rhetoric towards blacks, the poor, millennials, and the so-called "Bernie bros."

I've also called out the Trump Administration countless times for their valid crimes in connection to Russia-Gate. You just continue to ignore it because it doesn't fit your narrative.


If only you were one-tenth as interested in Russia's influence in American elections.
Now you've lost the argument completely. With a statement like that, you've proven to be a hypocrite who condones election meddling as long as the US is behind it. Contrary to what you think, I don't condone a foreign government meddling in our elections either. But that doesn't mean I'm going to conflate the actions of 13 Russian trolls with violent atrocities.

Congratulations. Only half of those are threads I posted more than 6 months ago. What's more, 3 out of 10 actually reference Hillary Clinton and yet, you somehow managed to contain yourself.
You said ten, so I gave you ten. You also don't post as often. But nothing will ever satisfy you when it comes to me, so I'm not surprised I continue receiving your condescension.

At least you have your priorities straight. Why concern yourself with treason when you can b!tch about the DNC instead?
Again, thanks for proving you're a hypocrite. You believe Trump was "installed" by Russia, yet you have no problem with a political party choosing their candidate undemocratically.

I'll gladly take you up on that. I hope that applies to posts I make on all other threads as well.
You got it from here on out (unless you respond to me first). I may post in threads you're involved in, but never directly to you nor in threads you create.

Consider it done.
Excellent.

Well, those days are officially over because you've finally alienated me to the point that I'm no longer interested in reading or responding to any more ridiculous horsesh!t. Welcome to my ignore list.
It's a great honor to be put on the ignore list of someone who's spent a year defaming me, misrepresenting my positions, shaming me for my vote, calling me a misogynist, etc. Hell, half the time you never responded to my policy critiques or even critiques of Trump pertaining to Russia because doing so would destroy your bullshit narrative. For all the crap you gave McGarrett, you're just as big a bully if not more so. You're a hypocrite whose concern for democracy and election meddling only pertain to how they affect your partisan brain. The amount of hyperbolic, hypocritical bullshit I've had to sift through in order to respond to your drivel has been a chore, and yet I never put you on ignore because I'm an adult who can hold my own.

Hell, I didn't even start making it personal until you came at me that way.

But I'm sure you'll never see this since I'm on your "ignore list." But just in case I'm not, you can rest assured I find you every bit as loathsome as you find me.
 
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SueEllenRules!

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It's amazing to watch two people duke it out over loyalty purity vs. ideological purity
Amazing? That’s one word for it. Disappointing would be another. As well as absurd. Which is why I refuse to respond to any further dreck. Therefore, the war is now over on my part.

--- for the same side.
Same side? I voted Democratic in the last election, as I’ve done in every election since I was 18. When you vote third party, you’re certainly not helping my side. You’re helping the opposition (unless you’re voting for a third party that pulls votes away from the Republican Party). For example, in the 3 states that decided the last election, the votes that went to Jill Stein were the difference between Hillary winning and losing. So those voters apparently wanted a Trump presidency since anyone with a brain knew that a Stein presidency was never going to happen in a million years.
 

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Amazing? That’s one word for it. Disappointing would be another. As well as absurd. Which is why I refuse to respond to any further dreck. Therefore, the war is now over on my part.
You and BD Calhoun both essentially ignore each other's legitimate points -- your points about strategy, and his points about actual policy.
SueEllenRules! said:
Same side? I voted Democratic in the last election, as I’ve done in every election since I was 18. When you vote third party, you’re certainly not helping my side. You’re helping the opposition (unless you’re voting for a third party that pulls votes away from the Republican Party). For example, in the 3 states that decided the last election, the votes that went to Jill Stein were the difference between Hillary winning and losing. So those voters apparently wanted a Trump presidency since anyone with a brain knew that a Stein presidency was never going to happen in a million years.
Don't look at me -- I voted Democratic, too.
 

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You and BD Calhoun both essentially ignore each other's legitimate points -- your points about strategy, and his points about actual policy.
I didn’t hear any legitimate points over the constant noise of ax grinding in the background.

Don't look at me -- I voted Democratic, too.
Yes, but you suggested that BD Calhoun and I are somehow on the same side. I was on the side of keeping a cretin like Trump from ever making it to the White House in the first place.
 
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Frank Underwood

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It's amazing to watch two people duke it out over loyalty purity vs. ideological purity --- for the same side.
It's representative of the left as a whole. And it's because the 2016 election exposed vastly different policy priorities between the corporatists and the progressives.

The primaries also created wounds through corruption, lies, and smears.

You and BD Calhoun both essentially ignore each other's legitimate points -- your points about strategy, and his points about actual policy.
What was his strategy outside of keeping Trump out of the White House? Or is that all it amounted too? His decision to vote for Hillary wasn't just strategic, it's because he actually supports her. I'm an ideological purist because I've seen the results of Democrats getting in bed with conservatives. They go right, which pushes Republicans even further right. People eventually realize they've been screwed over, so naturally they look for an alternative. Enter a faux populist. Dems made the rise of a fascist demagogue like Trump inevitable.

Don't look at me -- I voted Democratic, too.
And God bless. I can understand those who saw Hillary as the pragmatic choice better than the people who actually thought she'd be a good president.

Between the electoral college, the Supreme Court, Diebold, and election rigging, voting is a rather futile exercise anyway. In the end, we always end up with a neoliberal or a neocon.

I've also stated many times that I live in the blue state of Washington, meaning my vote literally made no difference anyway.

And I see that SueEllenRules! has gone on to call my posts "dreck" and insist they have no "legitimate points" outside of my ax grinding. Funny how he doesn't realize that my legitimate points are why I have an ax to grind. But like Hillary, he can label me a misogynist and leave self-reflection at the door.

Moderates are basically closeted Republicans. Obama even admitted as much when he said he would have been considered a moderate Republican in the 1980s.
 
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