EastEnders Den Watts

[ArchieLucasCarringtonEwing1989]

Who else liked him? I've been watching old episodes of Eastenders from the 80s, he certainly wasn't a black and white character, unlike most "Hardmen" that has come along since the Mitchell brothers, the way he was written, he was an extremely human character, relatable almost a next door neighbor type of person, then most of the characters in EE were written in this way during this era.

I thought Leslie Grantham played Den brilliantly, but in a way I'm kind of glad that he wasn't around in the 1990s aka the Mitchell heyday, then we may not have had Sharongate, even more drastically Sharon would not have married Grant in the first place with Den around,

The only character I would say was like him, was David Wicks (funny they share the same initials) David Wicks I found there was something tragic about, like Den he loved his daughter dearly, David was also a lone wolf, kinda like Den, I think David Wicks could've fitted into the
1980s era of Eastenders.

I was mixed about Den's 2003 return, I hated that they made Den's love for Sharon something sinister, and his disregard for Vickie, in his first stint Den was proud that Vickie was his (at the time) his only natural born child, however it did prove something to me, that he was the only character to not only be afraid of the Mitchell's but managed to remove them from the top dog position without violence.

 

[James from London]

Yeah, I really liked Den while David is probably my favourite ever Enders character. David I think was more tortured. He definitely had mother issues whereas Den's family were rarely spoken of. There was no psychological reason given for Den's behaviour. He just was the way he was and the show didn't attempt to excuse or sentimentalise him, especially not his relationship with Michelle which was precisely what made it so interesting.

In a way, that's symptomatic of the different eras of the show. Arthur and Kathy both had fathers who were described as violent drunks, but in neither case was it an "issue". Arthur and Kathy weren't presented as victims of abuse or defined by their parents' treatment of them in the way that later characters -- Phil, David, Billy, Max, etc. -- were.

 

[ArchieLucasCarringtonEwing1989]

David Wicks is definitely becoming one of my favourites, I'm not into the whole "macho, laddish, we abuse women but it's because we're messed up in the head" hardmen, Eastenders works better when the hard man uses psychology and intellect to get what he needs hence why I like Den and David.

I always wondered if Phil Mitchell would've become the big bad in the early to mid 00s had David come back at that time?

I think that's what made the Watts family so interesting, we know virtually nothing about Den or Angie's parents, or whether they had siblings, they were fragmented, small in number and isolated from other families in the square, there's a whole history behind them that we know nothing about, what made Den the person he was? Why was he so desperate for family?

 

[James from London]

Well, I think everyone was fragmented in the beginning of the series apart from the Beales. They were the dynasty of the Square that the show revolved around. They were the ideal, mythical East End family that everyone aspired to, or was supposed to aspire to.

 

[ArchieLucasCarringtonEwing1989]

Well, I think everyone was fragmented in the beginning of the series apart from the Beales. They were the dynasty of the Square that the show revolved around. They were the ideal, mythical East End family that everyone aspired to, or was supposed to aspire to.

Very true, the Beales seemed to represent the traditional family where as the Watts represented the unhealthy underbelly of traditional families.

 

[James from London]

There was a really interesting dynamic between Michelle and Sharon as teenagers where they each fantasised about belonging to the others' family. Sharon used to say she wished Arthur was her dad instead of Den and Michelle once admitted she wrote to Radio 1 pretending to be Sharon.

 

[ArchieLucasCarringtonEwing1989]

My favourite David Wicks scene, it involves Sharon, and Grant briefly pops up, its from 1995, hard to think it was 22 years ago, I feel genuinely sorry for David here, despite the fact he has a lot of links to the Square at this point, he's related to the Beale's and the Fowlers he has Pat, Bianca, but he's still ever the lone wolf.

 

[James from London]

Yes! I absolutely loved that scene when I first saw it and I never forgot it: a chance encounter between two lost souls who don't really know each other that well. When I re-watched this period a few years ago, the whole episode really stood out. It had a different look and feel it to it (that oddly angled shot of the house as Grant approaches it being a case in point). I remember googling the director (I can't remember his name now) -- his credits were mainly theatre. He only directed a few Enders eps but they all had a very distinctive look about them.

 

[ArchieLucasCarringtonEwing1989]

Yes I loved that angle of Michelle's house, and of Bridge Street, it was almost like Grant was watching David and Sharon from the Vic's upstairs window, I was half expecting him to appear.

 

[Canon]

I really want to hit play on that Sharon and David video, but I should really wait until I get around to watching those episodes in 2049.

 

[James from London]

I really want to hit play on that Sharon and David video, but I should really wait until I get around to watching those episodes in 2049.

Ha! Go on, have a sneaky look!

 

[ArchieLucasCarringtonEwing1989]

I loved the lighting in that scene in the cafe, I don't think we have many these human moments in Eastenders nowadays, I could do with a couple of years without the "whodunnits" just to see Eastenders go back to what it really does well at, looks like the show could be going in that direction.

Back to Den, David Wicks will have to be saved for another thread , it's strange to think that there was no one else from the Watts or Angie's side of the family that ever came to visit them or even get a mention, that kinda adds to Den's mystery.

Who else was spooked when Sharon said that she didn't want to find her real dad knowing her luck, if only she would remember those very words two decades later!

 

[James from London]

Ethel Skinner: Do you remember Den's dad, Dennis? He was a hard man, wasn't he?
Dot Cotton: He gave Den a few thick ears.
Ethel: I always thought old Dennis was very handsome.

Den: When I was a kid at school, some big lout used to come down to the playground every day and try and nick my dinner money. So coming from a very big family, and this family being a good family and a nice family, they used to come down and sort him out for me.

Den: Only child, me. There was some cousins around, but they weren't much to write home about.

Den: The barneys I used to have with my old man when I was a kid over the most stupid things you wouldn't believe. I had a quiff once.
Michelle: You weren't a teddy boy, were you?
Den: Yeah, I was. My old man thought a quiff was an affront to the British Empire. We nearly came to blows over it. Anyway, it was resolved somehow. Oh yeah, he got some barber in Stanton Hill to chop it off. And that was that, the war was over. Well, one of the battles anyway.

Den: When I was [young], my dad took me to one side and said, "You best watch yourself. You're far too cocky for your own good. You think there's nobody in this world but yourself." And do you know something? He was absolutely right.

Den: My dad told me the only face you should trust is the one you see when you're shaving yourself in the morning.

Den on his mother: Older generation, facts of life, always embarrassed.

Den on Angie: If I'm honest, she was a bit like me mum.

Den to Angie: Do you remember my old dad? He reckoned we deserved each other.

Angie: My dad never liked you. He warned me about you.
Den: I didn't go a bundle on him either.

Angie on spring cleaning: Do you remember the old days? I can see my mum, turban and overalls, everyone hanging out their carpets and maxis the same week and beating the hell out of them.
Lou: In those days, they did things properly. They ran the house properly, regular as clockwork. Monday - washing and ironing, Tuesday - cleaning ...
Arthur Fowler: And so on and so on and so on.

Angie: I remember my old mum, Sunday afternoons after tea. She used to pick the cloth up by four corners, take it into the yard and give it a good old shake. Do you remember the first time you were invited?
Den: Yeah. I was dreading it.
Angie: Well, I'd never have known. You looked very cocky to me.
Den: Salmon sandwiches and tongue sandwiches, and I hated them.
Angie: But you ate them.
Den: I was sick later.
Angie: And you took her flowers and twenty fags. You could always get round her with twenty fags.

Angie: I'm a creature of impulse, me. That's what my old mum used to say. "Impulsive you are, girl. Gonna get you into trouble one of these days."

 

[ArchieLucasCarringtonEwing1989]

Thanks @James from London !

 

[soapfan]

I think killing Den off the 2nd time was a mistake, Phil should have been killed off instead.

 

[soapfan]

The actor Leslie Grantham had since died in 2018, the outcome with the character of Den would've been the same I think, even had he returned in the early 1990s, he'd have got The Arches garage and made more enemies for himself in the process and been killed off. It also would've brought about the question if some of the older earlier cast members from around that time would've stook around or quit in protest due to the fact Leslie Grantham was upsetting some of the cast members, i'd say he was worse than Peter Dean/Pete Beale really when you think about it.

 

[soapfan]

I was wondering how Den Watts would have been in 1990s EastEnders.

Den (Leslie Grantham) would have returned in 1991 and the Eddie Royle stuff happening in 1992.

Phil and Grant would have worked with Den against Eddie Royle, and stopping Eddie from taking over The Queen Victoria pub and redecorating it from its traditional yellow gold/black/brown to green/yellow.

I can't however see how else Den Watts would have fitted into 1990s EastEnders apart from dealing with the above. Sharongate may not have happened, I think Den and Grant would have got into a fight at some point and Den would have got along with early 1990s Phil. Phil's alcoholism would have happened in any marriage though, or maybe he'd have looked out for Kathy.

Just thinking of 1993-1999, well Den wouldn't have fitted in, he would just be like he was in 2003-2005. He would just be a "jumped up jack-the-lad who's got out of his depth" as Phil said in 2003 during the Armed Robbery set-up.

The thing that ruined Den's 2nd stint was TPTB got Den's characterisation wrong from the start, where Den should have been put back behind the bar immediately and back to his 1980s old self rather than causing trouble for a year and Leslie Grantham's own conduct with the webcam incident and slagging off his work colleagues.

I think Den missed Angie, he was never the same without her, struggling to run the pub single-handedly for the most part, getting out of his depth with The Firm (Brad Williams and Gregory Mantel). Unless Jan Hammond (Jane How) had been brought back for a long stint as a regular character running the pub with Den in 1990s EastEnders up to 2018 at the very latest, we'd have been able to have Den/Jan rather than Den/Angie, actor Leslie Grantham since died in 2018, and Angie returned as a ghost for the 40th anniversary.

Den Watts just ordering people about thinking he's the big man with everyone deferring to him, with a normal job and interacting less with residents. It would also have been interesting to see Den and Peggy getting together with Grant and Phil disapproving of their relationship. I bet Den would not have continued being a cocky, jumped-up jack the lad, as he knows Grant especially could destroy him and maybe Phil helping also to a certain extent too.

This would have meant Kathy/Grant's one night stand would still have happened, as Kathy only did that and went with Grant because he was nicer than Phil and how she thought she "married the wrong brother" and with Den believing Phil to be a "playground bully getting a bad reputation and approaching his sell-by-date", not to mention the hatred/disliking Steve McFadden had working with Leslie Grantham, and how even characters like Pat and Pauline leaving earlier, as actresses Pam St Clement and Wendy Richard may have quit in protest over Leslie Grantham and how Nick Cotton/John Altman also felt uncomfortable working with Leslie Grantham, so maybe Phil Mitchell and Nick would never have become enemies and more like friends/allies with Nick becoming an alcoholic at some point too.

Den would have also married a few more times as he liked having affairs which meant he already had previous enemies like either of The Mitchell Brothers eventually.

I think Den Watts in the nineties would have been a powerful respected person throughout the decade who slowly wouldn't have had so many enemies and remaining civilised towards Grant Mitchell especially as well.