Domestic health passport to enter pubs and get jobs

[ArchieLucasCarringtonEwing1989]

This idea has been floated around for a while now, while I understand the need of an international vaccine passport (Italy and Spain are doing testing upon arrival apparently rather than an international vaccine passport) a domestic one seems way too far into authoritarianism and could lead into an apartheid society and gives credence to conspiracy theorists who said such a thing could happen last year during the first lockdown.

I get the need to be safe, but with enough vulnerable and elderly people vaccinated in the next few months, and Covid likely becoming seasonal, why is this a necessary step?

Covid passports: Where do I still need to use one?

Mandatory Covid passports end in Scotland, as has happened in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

www.bbc.com

 

[Angela Channing]

I can see the need for it in some situations. For example, most theatres need to be at least two-thirds full to run profitably so social distancing would mean every show would run at a loss. If all audience members were required to show evidence of having had a covid vaccine then everyone could sit together in close proximity.

It's not just the vulnerable who get Covid so it's not just about protecting them but about protecting the whole population.

 

[ArchieLucasCarringtonEwing1989]

I can see the need for it in some situations. For example, most theatres need to be at least two-thirds full to run profitably so social distancing would mean every show would run at a loss. If all audience members were required to show evidence of having had a covid vaccine then everyone could sit together in close proximity.

It's not just the vulnerable who get Covid so it's not just about protecting them but about protecting the whole population.

But is it not a slippery slope into authoritarianism? Basically blackmailing the healthy and those that aren’t affected by Covid ie the younger generation into getting a vaccine, where does it stop then? It’ll create a two tier society and there are multiple reasons for not taking the vaccine, not all are anti vax, some it’s religious reasons, bigotry already exists do we need more of it?

Its one thing to be safe it’s another allowing fascism through the backdoor, plus this gives credence to conspiracy theorists who predicted such a thing would happen.

Personally a domestic vaccine passport is utter nonsense

 

[cobbles]

Presumably this could only be enforceable after everyone has been offered the vaccine?

With young people's economic woes already through the roof, requiring vaccination to work will destroy us.

 

[ArchieLucasCarringtonEwing1989]

Presumably this could only be enforceable after everyone has been offered the vaccine?

With young people's economic woes already through the roof, requiring vaccination to work will destroy us.

It does feel that this is a knee jerk reaction to an issue we will have to live with forever.

I personally don’t think it’ll be “enforced” but it’s certainly a sinister step that shouldn’t be considered at all.

You're essentially blackmailing young people who have already sacrificed an entire year to protect the elderly and vulnerable members of the population

 

[Angela Channing]

But is it not a slippery slope into authoritarianism? Basically blackmailing the healthy and those that aren’t affected by Covid ie the younger generation into getting a vaccine, where does it stop then? It’ll create a two tier society and there are multiple reasons for not taking the vaccine, not all are anti vax, some it’s religious reasons, bigotry already exists do we need more of it?

Its one thing to be safe it’s another allowing fascism through the backdoor, plus this gives credence to conspiracy theorists who predicted such a thing would happen.

Personally a domestic vaccine passport is utter nonsense

I don't see it that way at all. The Covid-19 crisis is unprecedented and calls for unprecedented solutions. No one would be blackmailed and everyone would still have the choice of whether or not they want to be vaccinated.

Going back to my example of theatres, if people choose not to be vaccinated they are also choosing not to be in enclosed indoor spaces with hundreds or thousands of other people from which they are unable to social distance. The alternative would be that theatres would remain shut because there would be no other way to open them safely. Why should the actions of a minority stop the enjoyment of everyone else. I wouldn't be as uncharitable as the Queen by saying they are being "shellfish" but is it right that their decision would rob other people of their livelihoods?

 

[Angela Channing]

Presumably this could only be enforceable after everyone has been offered the vaccine?

With young people's economic woes already through the roof, requiring vaccination to work will destroy us.

Again, I don't see it like that. Vaccine passports allow businesses to open up earlier than they otherwise would which would enable more young people in different industries to return to work. It's not having vaccine passports that could "destroy" young people.

 

[cobbles]

Again, I don't see it like that. Vaccine passports allow businesses to open up earlier than they otherwise would which would enable more young people in different industries to return to work. It's not having vaccine passports that could "destroy" young people.

If a vaccine passport is required to work, then how are these industries that are overwhelmingly staffed by 18-30 year olds going to open with 18-30 years olds back of the queue for vaccines (even many of those of us at genuine Covid risk being subtlety downgraded to back of vaccine que due to age). Or are we expected to go and work in these places despite not having been vaccinated in order to allow them to open earlier for older generations who have?

Vaccine passports are authoritarian and nonsense and shouldn't even be being talked about. There was joke during the rounds when the idea first came up in December about the scale of riots you'd see if you opened the Euros up to the vaccinated whilst 18-24 year olds couldn't go as they hadn't been done yet, it seems to be creeping closer to a reality

 

[ArchieLucasCarringtonEwing1989]

I don't see it that way at all. The Covid-19 crisis is unprecedented and calls for unprecedented solutions. No one would be blackmailed and everyone would still have the choice of whether or not they want to be vaccinated.

Going back to my example of theatres, if people choose not to be vaccinated they are also choosing not to be in enclosed indoor spaces with hundreds or thousands of other people from which they are unable to social distance. The alternative would be that theatres would remain shut because there would be no other way to open them safely. Why should the actions of a minority stop the enjoyment of everyone else. I wouldn't be as uncharitable as the Queen by saying they are being "shellfish" but is it right that their decision would rob other people of their livelihoods?

Saying that unvaccinated people ie by and large healthy people, can’t partake in society unless they get the jab is blackmail.

Isn’t what those who want to be vaccinated are being, they’re being selfish expecting a young population Who by and large have been unaffected by Covid, many who have had it had mild symptoms and that’s that, aren’t the vaccinated being selfish themselves?

Is then right that those unvaccinated should lose their jobs? Be shunned from society? How is this any better? How is that a solution

And For the Queen who has spent her entire life being sponging off the poorest in society to call people selfish for not taking the vaccine is in pretty poor taste, she should clean up her own house before she judges those who keep her in her lifestyle with their taxes

 

[ArchieLucasCarringtonEwing1989]

Again, I don't see it like that. Vaccine passports allow businesses to open up earlier than they otherwise would which would enable more young people in different industries to return to work. It's not having vaccine passports that could "destroy" young people.

But it will destroy young people, this whole crisis has damaged a generation, to take their freedoms away even further is wrong.

 

[ArchieLucasCarringtonEwing1989]

If a vaccine passport is required to work, then how are these industries that are overwhelmingly staffed by 18-30 year olds going to open with 18-30 years olds back of the queue for vaccines (even many of those of us at genuine Covid risk being subtlety downgraded to back of vaccine que due to age). Or are we expected to go and work in these places despite not having been vaccinated in order to allow them to open earlier for older generations who have?

Vaccine passports are authoritarian and nonsense and shouldn't even be being talked about. There was joke during the rounds when the idea first came up in December about the scale of riots you'd see if you opened the Euros up to the vaccinated whilst 18-24 year olds couldn't go as they hadn't been done yet, it seems to be creeping closer to a reality

I remember when this was a conspiracy theorist now it’s looking like a reality..

Domestic vaccine passports are a gateway to fascism, once you discriminate against one group there’s nothing to stop the establishment from discriminating against any group they like.

It’s sad that Joe Public thinks this is the best way forward

 

[Angela Channing]

Saying that unvaccinated people ie by and large healthy people, can’t partake in society unless they get the jab is blackmail.

Isn’t what those who want to be vaccinated are being, they’re being selfish expecting a young population Who by and large have been unaffected by Covid, many who have had it had mild symptoms and that’s that, aren’t the vaccinated being selfish themselves?

Is then right that those unvaccinated should lose their jobs? Be shunned from society? How is this any better? How is that a solution

And For the Queen who has spent her entire life being sponging off the poorest in society to call people selfish for not taking the vaccine is in pretty poor taste, she should clean up her own house before she judges those who keep her in her lifestyle with their taxes

Without vaccine passport the only weapon against Covid-19 spreading is social distancing but many industries can't function under those condition. Is it fair that they should stay shut and employees can't make a living?

Do you think it's better than everything should reopen with no social distancing and let the virus rip through the population or do you think that everything should remain in lockdown until the virus infection rate falls to something closer to zero?

To answer your question, no it's not right that the unvaccinated should lose their jobs but the alternative to let people who could have the Covid virus be allowed to infect others in the workplace who could then go on to die or suffer from life changing Covid related illnesses is also an unpalatable option. Of the 2 choices, I think vaccine passport is the more acceptable option.

 

[ArchieLucasCarringtonEwing1989]

Without vaccine passport the only weapon against Covid-19 spreading is social distancing but many industries can't function under those condition. Is it fair that they should stay shut and employees can't make a living?

Do you think it's better than everything should reopen with no social distancing and let the virus rip through the population or do you think that everything should remain in lockdown until the virus infection rate falls to something closer to zero?

To answer your question, no it's not right that the unvaccinated should lose their jobs but the alternative to let people who could have the Covid virus be allowed to infect others in the workplace who could then go on to die or suffer from life changing Covid related illnesses is also an unpalatable option. Of the 2 choices, I think vaccine passport is the more acceptable option.

No a domestic vaccine passport is just about control and coercion, it has nothing to do with a virus that by and large has a high survival rate and one we will have to live with, even Matt Hancock said that covid will be with us forever, if one is vaccinated why would it make any difference if another person wasn’t?

Do you think health passports are a temporary measure? No it won’t be it’ll be here to stay.

Lockdown isn’t an option either, we can’t afford it, but becoming fascist isn’t the way to deal with this either, young people have already sacrificed enough this year, it’s a bit much to expect them to be happy to be blackmailed into having a vaccine for a virus they have a high survival rate from

A two tiered society is quite frankly backward

 

[Brian Kinney]

People who don't vaccinate or who don't want a vaccine passport shouldn't travel.

As a hotel owner on Ibizia or Mykonos I wouldn't allow them in. Like the child day-care centre in Germany don't allow children in without vaccine against measles. Anyone has a choice. Anyone - that includes the travel industry and politicians that have to decide for more than one person on a selfish trip. This isn't blackmail. You can't got into a store without paying either. That's the consequence of choosing something you want for yourself. Or do you think it's blackmail if they ask you to pay?

You live in a world that asks you to act responsible. You don't get punished if you don't. But then you are no longer part of the majority of the society who understands it. An unspoken rule you should've understand in your childhood while playing with other kids. This isn't fascism it's social behaviour in a democracy.

 

[ArchieLucasCarringtonEwing1989]

People who don't vaccinate or who don't want a vaccine passport shouldn't travel.

As a hotel owner on Ibizia or Mykonos I wouldn't allow them in. Like the child day-care centre in Germany don't allow children in without vaccine against measles. Anyone has a choice. Anyone - that includes the travel industry and politicians that have to decide for more than one person on a selfish trip. This isn't blackmail. You can't got into a store without paying either. That's the consequence of choosing something you want for yourself. Or do you think it's blackmail if they ask you to pay?

You live in a world that asks you to act responsible. You don't get punished if you don't. But then you are no longer part of the majority of the society who understands it. An unspoken rule you should've understand in your childhood while playing with other kids. This isn't fascism it's social behaviour in a democracy.

I stated that International vaccine passports is something that isn’t down to us, we can’t control who goes into Spain or Germany only they can, one doesn’t have to go on holiday abroad

People however have to work, to pay for bills, rent, mortgage, people have to eat and buy basic needs.

You’re basically advocating a two tiered society in which one half is blackmailed into being part of the other half, we’ve never asked for domestic vaccine passports for any other disease before, and Covid has a high survival rate for young and healthy people and society is asking those people to take a vaccine against their will or else you can’t work, or socialise again.

I advice anyone who wants domestic vaccine passports to look up on the Nuremberg code

 

[Brian Kinney]

Please stop calling it "blackmail". You were never asked to pay taxes either - you have to. It's a service to the system you live in. The system that provides your education, the streets you drive on etc. - that's based for a part on solidarity. The same is asked for with vaccinations.

I have a vaccination certificate (pass?) since my birth. Is that different in your country or why is it such a big deal? Or is it because the international one is an additional vaccine pass? Are you an anti-vaxxer?

The younger people have a higher chance to become long-term Covid effects. So how do they work and socialise then?

Aside from that: my neighbourhood is very young, lots of people in their 20s-30s. I've never heard their concerns about vaccinations nor have I read in the news anything about it. They all want their old lives back as fast as possible but vaccinated to feel safe. This isn't really different to older folks. Why is your impression of that seemingly so different to mine?

You want a comment on the Nuremberg code? To bring "human experimentation" in a discussion and before "fascism" about vaccinations is not the level I'm willing to discuss. I know the pattern too well from conspiracy nonsense. The Rothschilds and Bill Gates are probably not far behind...

 

[ArchieLucasCarringtonEwing1989]

Please stop calling it "blackmail". You were never asked to pay taxes either - you have to. It's a service to the system you live in. The system that provides your education, the streets you drive on etc. - that's based for a part on solidarity. The same is asked for with vaccinations.

I have a vaccination certificate (pass?) since my birth. Is that different in your country or why is it such a big deal? Or is it because the international one is an additional vaccine pass? Are you an anti-vaxxer?

The younger people have a higher chance to become long-term Covid effects. So how do they work and socialise then?

Aside from that: my neighbourhood is very young, lots of people in their 20s-30s. I've never heard their concerns about vaccinations nor have I read in the news anything about it. They all want their old lives back as fast as possible but vaccinated to feel safe. This isn't really different to older folks. Why is your impression of that seemingly so different to mine?

You want a comment on the Nuremberg code? To bring "human experimentation" in a discussion and before "fascism" about vaccinations is not the level I'm willing to discuss. I know the pattern too well from conspiracy nonsense. The Rothschilds and Bill Gates are probably not far behind...

Why am I an anti vaxxer if I don’t think a vaccine passport to buy food is necessary? Is that we’ve come down to now? Yet more needless divisions you’re making a lot of assumptions about me, and I don’t quite appreciate that.

For the second time now I’m stating to you that an international vaccine passport is beyond our control! That is down to the country you want to go to, if I want to go to Greece or Isreal I would have to take the Covid vaccine, as I don’t plan on going to those countries any time soon and as I’m a healthy 32 year old I don’t think it is necessary for me to take the vaccine, it should be for those vulnerable or elderly or if someone wants to take the vaccine it is their choice and I support their choice, the flu vaccine is optional and that’s what the Covid vaccine should be; optional, Matt Hancock has already said that we will have to live with Covid like we do with the cold and flu and will be seasonal.
So let me clear it up again: I am not anti vax there I’ve said it so don’t accuse me of that again.

Regarding the domestic vaccine passport, how is it not blackmail to say that “unless you don’t get the vaccine you don’t get the job” how is that not blackmail?

So you would be happy to see a young person lose out on a job just because they don’t want the vaccine?

There is a big difference between paying my taxes for my benefit as well as for others and taking a vaccine I feel I don’t need.

Isn’t a domestic vaccine passport basically a step toward fascism or a two tiered society?

Please do not try and make out that this is all about solidarity please

 

[Angela Channing]

I don't have a driving license, it's my choice, but I can't demand I should be able to drive a car. It's not blackmail to insist that everyone that drives should have a license, it's about public safety, The same is true about the Covid vaccine.

No one is being blackmailed, people have the free choice whether or not they want to have the vaccine but their choice has consequences. If it was only about their health then that would be ok but why should people be permitted to infect and maybe kill others when it could be prevented.

So you would be happy to see a young person lose out on a job just because they don’t want the vaccine?

I wouldn't be happy but that would be their choice. I would be more unhappy about young people who lose their job because they work in industries that can't reopen because they are unable to implement social distancing. Those young people would lose their jobs because of the choices of other people not to be vaccinated.

 

[ArchieLucasCarringtonEwing1989]

I don't have a driving license, it's my choice, but I can't demand I should be able to drive a car. It's not blackmail to insist that everyone that drives should have a license, it's about public safety, The same is true about the Covid vaccine.

No one is being blackmailed, people have the free choice whether or not they want to have the vaccine but their choice has consequences. If it was only about their health then that would be ok but why should people be permitted to infect and maybe kill others when it could be prevented.

I wouldn't be happy but that would be their choice. I would be more unhappy about young people who lose their job because they work in industries that can't reopen because they are unable to implement social distancing. Those young people would lose their jobs because of the choices of other people not to be vaccinated.

There’s a big difference between a drivers license to drive and a vaccine to lead a basic life, the comparison is so far apart they belong in different universes.

Driving is a skill, having a normal life with my own choices is a basic human right, it totally is blackmail, they’re saying take the vaccine or you don’t get to live a normal life that is textbook blackmail “do this or you don’t get this or I’ll do such and such”

If enough people have the vaccine why should they worry about being infected? We will have to live with this virus no point continuing to live in fear, we have never considered giving up our basic human rights and civil liberties for a disease or virus before, pretty disappointing that people are so willing to let us slip deeper into authoritarianism

If industries in which young people work in collapse that is the fault of authoritarian rules, not the person.

 

[Angela Channing]

There’s a big difference between a drivers license to drive and a vaccine to lead a basic life, the comparison is so far apart they belong in different universes.

Driving is a skill, having a normal life with my own choices is a basic human right, it totally is blackmail, they’re saying take the vaccine or you don’t get to live a normal life that is textbook blackmail “do this or you don’t get this or I’ll do such and such”

If enough people have the vaccine why should they worry about being infected? We will have to live with this virus no point continuing to live in fear, we have never considered giving up our basic human rights and civil liberties for a disease or virus before, pretty disappointing that people are so willing to let us slip deeper into authoritarianism

If industries in which young people work in collapse that is the fault of authoritarian rules, not the person.

I could get someone to teach me how to drive and when I feel I'm competent why should I need to get a license to prove I'm safe on the roads? If enough other people have driving licenses they can protect themselves from me if I prove to be a terrible driver.

To make me have to take a test and get a license so I can drive is blackmail. It should be a basic human right to decide when you feel ready to drive without the state demanding that I prove I'm competent. It's fascism and authoritarian to force people to get a driving license so they can drive a car on the streets and it's disappoint that so many people are willing to allow this.

This is precisely your argument.