Mary Tyler Moore Show and Its Spin-Offs

[ClassyCo]

Fans online are roaring about Betty White's delicious portrayal of man-hungry Sue Ann Nivens on MARY TYLER MOORE ever since the star's death some three weeks ago. One fan online said that while people were heavily promoting Rose Nylund as Betty's crowning achievement, it was Sue Ann that provided Betty's best work.

In my view, it solely depends on how you look at it all. Despite some initial misgivings, I can honestly say now that MARY TYLER MOORE was a better-written sitcom with stronger, more in-depth characters. That, in turn, makes Sue Ann a stronger, more rounded and consistent character as a whole. I'd say the writing on MARY TYLER MOORE was also more "sophisticated" overall. On the other hand, I'd argue that THE GOLDEN GIRLS was funnier, sharper, and definitely more of a pop culture staple. On this end, that would make Rose a more influential character to modern audiences. THE GOLDEN GIRLS is consistently in reruns, and collectibles clutter a variety of trendy stores.

MARY TYLER MOORE and GOLDEN GIRLS are two funny, accomplished shows, and Betty was always appreciative for having been apart of both. And it's rewarding to know that she received Emmys for her performances on both shows. Whichever show you find the funniest will depend solely on one's personal tastes, and that personal taste will likely decide whether you find Betty's work as Sue Ann or Rose her greatest career highlight.
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[Jock Ewing Fan]

Hmmm
I remember reading that in preproduction, Mary was intended to be a divorcee, but the powers that be nixed it,
they said viewers would think that she divorced Dick Van Dyke!
Jack Cassidy and Lyle Waggoner were originally considered for Ted Baxter.
I'm glad Ted Knight was cast - I think he was the funniest character, and Ted Knight is a brilliant actor.
I liked Valerie Harper as Rhoda on MTM, not so much on her own shows (both Rhoda and the Hogans)
Nancy Walker is a skilled actress, but I found her character annoying.
Same with Cloris Leachman, never cared for Phyllis.
"Lou Grant' was a good show, even though I don't care for AE's politics.
"Too Close For Comfort" was an entertaining sitcom, again Ted Knight is so talented (I know it's not a spinoff)
All in all, the MTM show was great TV

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

100 last Monday! The first one born and the last one to go...

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

 

[Seaviewer]

I can honestly say now that MARY TYLER MOORE was a better-written sitcom with stronger, more in-depth characters. That, in turn, makes Sue Ann a stronger, more rounded and consistent character as a whole.

I think that's true. There's also the issue of likeability. Some may simply feel that the daffy, loveable Rose was easier to play.

 

[bmasters9]

Yep (and David Lloyd’s son, Christopher, was the showrunner on Frasier during its peak years).

I believe there was a time after the glory days of MTM studios where a bunch of the creative staff migrated to Paramount: Glen and Les Charles, James L Brooks, and Gary David Goldberg.

And James Burrows, IIRC (the Burrows in Charles-Burrows-Charles of Cheers fame, that outfit being IAW Paramount Television there).

End credits from third-season Cheers episode showing as much:

 

[DallasFanForever]

I think that's true. There's also the issue of likeability. Some may simply feel that the daffy, loveable Rose was easier to play.

I’m not so sure if Rose was the easier character to play to be honest, but to me she was definitely the more likable one. Sue Ann was great but I prefer Rose personally.

 

[Daniel Avery]

Which reminds me of some Golden Girls dialogue where Rose was upset that one of her co-workers did not like her. She could not fathom why this person didn't like her.
Rose: "Dorothy--you're the smart one. Blanche--you're the sexy one. Sophia--you're the old one. And I'm the likeable one."
Sophia [sarcastic]: "The old one isn't liking you right now."

 

[ClassyCo]

Some may simply feel that the daffy, loveable Rose was easier to play.

I don't think Betty would agree with that. She was practically pegged to play Blanche on THE GOLDEN GIRLS, and was completely blindsided when director Jay Sandrich did the switch-a-roo during production of the pilot. According to White, she knew who Blanche was, but she had to seek guidance from series creator Susan Harris to find out how to precisely play Rose.​

I’m not so sure if Rose was the easier character to play to be honest, but to me she was definitely the more likable one. Sue Ann was great but I prefer Rose personally.

Sue Ann wasn't very likeable overall, but she was a good role for Betty. She continuously spoke of her time on MARY TYLER MOORE as a highlight of her TV career. She won two Emmys for her performance too. Rose, while more likeable, wasn't necessarily who Betty wanted to play when GOLDEN GIRLS first showed up.​

100 last Monday! The first one born and the last one to go...

Is that a screenshot from the episode where Sue Ann scolds the crew about forgetting to plug in her stove?​

 

[Seaviewer]

I’m not so sure if Rose was the easier character to play to be honest

I don't think Betty would agree with that.

I quite agree, but there is a common perception that comedy is easier than drama (though numerous actors have debunked that) and I think the same view might extend to a seemingly simple (or simple-minded) character like Rose as distinct from a character like Sue Ann who might seem more complex.

 

[Jimmy Todd]

I quite agree, but there is a common perception that comedy is easier than drama (though numerous actors have debunked that) and I think the same view might extend to a seemingly simple (or simple-minded) character like Rose as distinct from a character like Sue Ann who might seem more complex.

I think if the actor and writers rely on the character's role of "the fool" too much for a laugh it can do a disservice to the character. There are times on The Golden Girls that it did that, but in some of the better seasons they let Rose be more than just the moron.
The best character who played the role of the shows dimwitted, but was also a complex character in their own right was Edith on All in the Family, imho. She was the dingbat, but actually wiser and stronger than all the other characters.

 

[Chris2]

The Golden Girls was more of a gag machine (and a fun one), whereas MTMS is one of the best sitcoms of all time. That said, there’s a big difference between the first four seasons of GG and the last three. The showrunners left after season 4 to work on the short-lived Fanelli Boys and GG had a pretty much all-new writing staff for the final three seasons (Witt Thomas Harris brought in the It’s a Living producers to run the show after IAL ended). It was never the same.

 

[Crimson]

Betty has said that early on, someone (Susan Harris, perhaps) told her the key to Rose was that she was naïve not stupid. That may have been how Betty approached her performance, but the writing almost never supported that. Rose was written so dumb she was practically intellectually disabled.

 

[ClassyCo]

I've been in a heavy MARY TYLER MOORE mood recently. Last night, I watched four episodes, three to which I've never seen before. These episodes were refreshing and made me laugh out loud numerous times. The writing and the performances were top-notch, and my admiration for this show continues to grow.

"Rhoda's Sister Gets Married" (Season 4, Episode 3)​

I'd be willing to be that this episode was an attempt by the producers to familiarize the audience with Rhoda's family before igniting a spin-off for the character. I've always liked Rhoda and Valerie Harper in particular, and therefore any episode centering on her I know I'd like. It was interesting seeing Nancy Walker and Harold Gould playing Rhoda's parents, both who ended up with recurring roles on GOLDEN GIRLS the following decade. It was a funny episode and I like the banter Harper and Walker share, with poor Moore stuck in the middle. Some good, funny stuff.​

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"Father's Day" (Season 4, Episode 6)​

Ted's father -- who abandoned him and his mother when he was like two -- pops back into his life, tries to develop a relationship, and asks his son for money. Ted isn't sure where the relationship will go, or if he even wants a relationship with the father he never knew. Georgette, Rhoda, and Mary try to urge Ted to give his father a chance. I don't always like the Ted-centric episodes. I think Ted does better in smaller doses. When he's the focal point, he just gets a little too much sometimes.​

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"Mary's Aunt" (Season 6, Episode 6)​

As luck would have it, Mary's aunt is Flo Meredith (guest star Eileen Heckart), a renowned journalist. Mary really wants Lou to get along with Flo, but the two don't initially hit it off. Things work out well in the end when Lou apologizes for his behavior and he and Flo go out for an evening of dancing.​

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"Chuckles Bites the Dust" (Season 6, Episode 7)​

I mean... who doesn't like this episode? If you're a fan of this show, you have to like this one. It has some delicious moments and everyone is on the top of their game. There's a perfect build-up and everyone's got their own little moment to shine. No wonder this episode is routinely ranked among the best in the history of TV.​

 

[Chris2]

I always liked Eileen Heckart. She turned up as Flo in an episode of the “Lou Grant” spinoff (the only other MTM alumnus to appear in that series). She also played Mary’s mother in the short-lived “Annie McGuire” series in the late 1980s.

 

[ClassyCo]

I always liked Eileen Heckart.

I like her too. I always remember her as Marilyn Monroe's buddy Vera in BUS STOP (1956).

They worked very well together. Their scenes together were cute and they seemed like a real pair of friends. Vera supported Cherie in her dreams of being famous and going big in Hollywood. She also tried to help her find a suitable beau.

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[Snarky Oracle!]

Betty White Died: December 31, 2021 (age 99) in Los Angeles, California, USA
Ed Asner Died: August 29, 2021 (age 91) in Tarzana, California, USA
Gavin MacLeod Died: May 29, 2021 (age 90) in Palm Desert, California, USA
Cloris Leachman Died: January 27, 2021 (age 94) in Encinitas, California, USA
Valerie Harper Died: August 30, 2019 (age 80) in Los Angeles, California, USA
Georgia Engel Died: April 12, 2019 (age 70) in Princeton, New Jersey, USA
Mary Tyler Moore Died: January 25, 2017 (age 80) in Greenwich, Connecticut, USA
Ted Knight Died: August 26, 1986 (age 62) in Los Angeles, California, USA

 

[AndyB2008]

I always liked Eileen Heckart. She turned up as Flo in an episode of the “Lou Grant” spinoff (the only other MTM alumnus to appear in that series). She also played Mary’s mother in the short-lived “Annie McGuire” series in the late 1980s.

She was also in the short lived CBS sitcom The 5 Mrs Buchanans, created by Jamie Wooten and Marc Cherry, and shown by Channel 4 later.

Also in the cast was Beth Broderick, later Zelda Spellman in Sabrina. That show sucked later after she and Caroline Rhea left.

(Did Paula Hart not like anyone daring to be more popular than her daughter, given their company made it? She got rid of Nate Richert for that reason, only to bring him back when the fans protested. God knows what Paula Hart was like when Britney Spears and Nick Robinson got big out of Melissa and Joey and Drive Me Crazy too).

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

 

[tommie]

I'm finally in season 6 and I'm getting slightly worried - first Mary debuted a new bouffant do' in the season premiere that was thankfully short-lived and in the second episode she's moved to a new apartment, which is a huge downgrade from the previous set if she's going to stay there.