Mary Tyler Moore Show and Its Spin-Offs

Spooky Owl!

Telly Talk Supreme
LV
5
 
Awards
15
If it was indeed the last episode filmed that season*, it might be something as simple as....they ran out of money. As it was a new show, the network might not have given them the same sort of budget they'd get once they were an established hit, and by the end of the season they might have spent what they had. Have you noticed how many American sitcoms do "clip shows" for their final episodes some seasons? That's typically a sign they ran out of money, too.

* Sometimes sitcoms film out of order, or (more often) producers might decide to air them in a different order for whatever reason.

Although it shouldn't impact the writing. "The 45-year Old Man" (although Ed Asner was only 41) has a loud, desperate, unfunny vibe to it that feels very "stuck on" at the of the first season -- and smells vaguely like a bad, late-'60s sitcom in that way. (The episode with Bill Daily as a hapless politician has a comparable vibe).

Whenever I run across it in reruns (although I have the DVDs) I groan a little bit and may switch it off. Yet it also has a sweetly bustling, empty-finale atmosphere to it. So it depends on my mood.

Yes, Slim Pickens' abode surely could have been better disguised. Unless they were trying to tell us -- gently, for 1971 -- that Mary and the station owner were shacking up.

40a43b1db2142354671b12c4bd85a8cf.jpg
 

Spooky Owl!

Telly Talk Supreme
LV
5
 
Awards
15
Backdoor pilots are always so clunky. And fortunately this one failed, or Bill might not have been free to join THE BOB NEWHART SHOW.

See, I didn't know it was a backdoor pilot. But it certainly feels that way.

Although I admit to finding Daily more irritating on TBHS than anything. I watched TBNS and liked its '70s ambiance, more or less, but the humor was just a wee bit soft for my tastes, given the premise --- can't we make more raucous fun of the mentally ill than the revolving door of unfocused neurotics who ran through his office?
 

Spooky Owl!

Telly Talk Supreme
LV
5
 
Awards
15
Well, we could but then it would not be Bob Newhart.

Maybe. But in his '80s show, Michael & Stephanie (whom I initially liked, and their casting) became so overly drawn it was OTT -- of course, NEWHART was more OTT than THE BOB NEWHART SHOW to begin with.

I just didn't get a lot of laughs from his psychiatric patients. For that matter, Jerry the dentist and Bill Daily were lamely unfunny as well. Only Bob himself -- and the secretary Carol -- were even mildly amusing. (Suzanne Pleshette acted her part better than Mary Frann did later).

,,,and I watched THE BOB NEWHART SHOW every week -- and in reruns!
 

The Averyville Horror

Admin
LV
8
 
Awards
19
For that matter, Jerry the dentist and Bill Daily were lamely unfunny as well. Only Bob himself -- and the secretary Carol -- were even mildly amusing.
After Richard Dawson left Match Game to host Family Feud, they brought Bill Daily in to sit in RD's old seat a lot. He was just as lamely unfunny there as well, never really playing the game very well, either, but I guess he had a lot of time on his hands after BHS ended. They'd often have Marcia Wallace on at the same time (seated next to Daily) and she could give some great/witty answers. You got a much better idea of what the actors in that period were like in real life by seeing how they behaved on game shows and other places where they're "out of character".
 

Crimson

Telly Talk Enthusiast
LV
1
 
Awards
8
the humor was just a wee bit soft for my tastes, given the premise --- can't we make more raucous fun of the mentally ill than the revolving door of unfocused neurotics who ran through his office?

Perhaps what you wanted was not so much a sitcom about a psychologist as one set in an insane asylum :)

I liked the cast of TBNS just fine, except Jerry the dentist; Howard was best in small doses.
 

Jock Ewing Fan

Telly Talk Star
LV
0
 
Awards
8
Bob seemed to be a sort of life coach before the term gained more popularity.
The show was must see tv because of - Suzanne Pleshette!
 

Spooky Owl!

Telly Talk Supreme
LV
5
 
Awards
15
Perhaps what you wanted was not so much a sitcom about a psychologist as one set in an insane asylum :)

I liked the cast of TBNS just fine, except Jerry the dentist; Howard was best in small doses.

Well, I liked the ambiance of the show enough to watch consistently over the years -- Bob, Carol (in particular) and Emily were funny-ish.
 

Spooky Owl!

Telly Talk Supreme
LV
5
 
Awards
15
Co-creator/executive producer Allan Burns said (I think, as opposed to James L. Brooks) that after they completed the pilot script, they wrote across the cover page "...And May God Bless It."

Perhaps not doing so is what doomed that Carrington show. :lol:


Mary-Tyler-Moore-in-front-of-Victorian-house-pilot.jpg

screen-shot-2014-11-02-at-15-46-08.png

mtmdynasty_zpssutknnzr.jpg
 
Last edited:

Sea - Boo! - Er

Telly Talk Warrior
LV
8
 
Awards
18
I liked Bill Daily in both I Dream of Jeannie and The Bob Newhart Show but I agree that he was not funny in a central role. He was best as a confounding annoyance to the leads. He starred as a vet in a sitcom called Starting from Scratch which just falls flat. He's overshadowed by Nita Talbot as his wise-cracking assistant.
 

ClassyCo

Telly Talk Champion
LV
5
 
Awards
11
I also am not a big Bill Daily fan, so I'm uneasy in my enthusiasm for THE BOB NEWHART SHOW now.
 

Soaplover

Telly Talk Fan
LV
0
 
Awards
3
Offering an unpopular opinion, but the only role that I enjoyed Betty White playing was Rose on Golden Girls. Otherwise, she plays a variation of Sue Ann Nevins in a lot of other works.
 

Spells & Karma

Admin
LV
14
 
Awards
35
Season Two
The Birds…And…Um…Bees / I Am Curious Cooper / He’s No Heavy…He’s My Brother / Room 223 / A Girl’s Best Mother Is Not Her Friend / Cover Boy / Didn’t You Used To Be…Wait…Don’t Tell Me / Thoroughly Unmilitant Mary



Writing them down I realise that (multiple) ellipses in titles seem to be all the rage this season. The style of the first episode title in particular seems most appropriate given the Newhart discussion on this page (must confess I'm not a fan of Bob's deliberately stilted and staccato delivery).

On-screen there’s been a modest makeover. Most noticeable of these are the new opening titles with a new arrangement of Love Is All Around. The different lyrics haven’t grown on me yet. They’re nice enough and all, but they feel decidedly (and generically) more upbeat and I’m not sure about the “you’re pretty and popular so you have all you need” message. I rather miss the undercurrent of uncertainty and sadness from the Season One lyrics and visuals. I very much like the new arrangement of the music for the end titles, reminiscent of the muzak piped into department stores in the Seventies (but in a classy, Burt Bacharach/Henry Mancini/Alan Hawkshaw kind of way).

A few little tweaks to the sets as well. Most notably, the split-level arrangement of Mary’s apartment has become safer thanks to the addition of a proper integrated (and carpeted) step in the central area near the terrace. The flimsy temporary step that was there in Season One looked very precarious and I used to feel edgy every time someone hopped down it mid-line.

Also, the panelled walls might have been re-painted. In Season One they had a distinctly sage hue, whereas they now frequently look more like a warm grey. I suppose it could be as simple as a lighting change or some other unseen production element.

Over at WJM, too, the decorators have been at work. The desks have a different, less awkward configuration (Mary now has a little side desk for her typewriter) and their new darker colours add interest.

Besides this, everything else is mostly pleasantly familiar. All the regulars and semi-regulars are back, and there have been a couple of welcome returning guests (most notably Nancy Walker as Rhoda’s mother Ida, and Don Murray lookalike Richard Schaal as Howard). Even young Bess showed up again for the first time since early Season One.

It’s great to see Jack Cassidy (a favourite returning Columbo antagonist) as Ted’s brother. I’m hoping it’s not just a one-off.
 

Spooky Owl!

Telly Talk Supreme
LV
5
 
Awards
15
I rather miss the undercurrent of uncertainty and sadness from the Season One lyrics and visuals.

Oh, yes, it's a shift. But the Season 1 version of the opening theme is so very cusp-of-the-'60s-and-'70s. And I guess they didn't want to overdo it -- and, now a hit, they proclaim "you're gonna make it after all!" (I always want him to sing, "Looks like you've made it after all!" for the seventh and final season -- but it only happens inside my head).

It’s great to see Jack Cassidy (a favourite returning Columbo antagonist) as Ted’s brother. I’m hoping it’s not just a one-off.

Spoiler alert: he never reappears. Nor is he referred to again. There's a rumor that Jack Cassidy was offered the role of Ted Baxter but turned it down. I don't know if that's ever been verified. (As we've mention, Jennifer Aniston's dad was in the running for Ted at one point, and they shifted the concept of the character once Knight came in). At the time, we made comparisons between Jack Cassidy and Ted Baxter, and then -- kapow! -- there was Cassidy. So this was a show that listened to nature. (Cassidy died in a housefire -- which he may or may not have caused himself -- in 1976. Odd, because seemalike actor, Dennis Patrick, who played DALLAS' Vaughn Leland, died the same way).

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but Richard Schaal was married to Valerie Harper at the time.
 

Crimson

Telly Talk Enthusiast
LV
1
 
Awards
8
Most noticeable of these are the new opening titles with a new arrangement of Love Is All Around. The different lyrics haven’t grown on me yet.

MTM is rare among American sitcoms in that it contains genuine growth of characters and scenarios. The drawback to evolution is, well, it's no longer the same. MTM is a top notch sitcom from beginning to end, but some of the magic of the first season starts to fade. The wistful, melancholy vibe doesn't carry too far into the series. Maybe it was very era-specific, but it also reflects Mary's development. In the first season, she was hesitantly starting a new life. By the second season, she was settled with a solid career and good friends. Perhaps they were a tad premature in tweaking the lyrics to be more upbeat and confident or maybe, as Snarky suggests, the lyrics should have continued to evolve along with Mary.

Even young Bess showed up again for the first time since early Season One.

Child actors are often the bane of a TV series, even when they're the star. Lisa Gerritsen was an unusually at-ease and amusing child performer, so it's a shame she wasn't utilized more often. But, of course, she was tied to Phyllis, who was a "special guest star" and best in small doses anyway.

There's a rumor that Jack Cassidy was offered the role of Ted Baxter but turned it down. I don't know if that's ever been verified.

It was confirmed in the book Mary and Lou and Rhoda and Ted: And All the Brilliant Minds Who Made the Mary Tyler Moore Show a Classic, which contained interviews with most key players related to the series. The role of Ted was written with Cassidy in mind but he turned it down as being too similar to the role he played in the short lived sitcom HE & SHE. (Lyle Waggoner was also considered.)

Although I like the episode because it gave insight and focus to Ted, I did not care for Cassidy or the role. We dodged a bullet with the possibility of Cassidy playing Ted, as I don't think he could have brought any of the bumbling insecurity to the role Ted Knight did. I'm also not wild about guest stars playing siblings who are more or less carbon copies of the main characters; I never see the point. I feel the same about Nancy Walker on GOLDEN GIRLS; her Angela was too similar to Sophia for me to find all that funny. And not to rile up the DYNASTY folks, but one of the few instances where I dipped into that series was when Kate O'Mara was in the cast. I failed to see the reason for having a poor man's Alexis when Alexis was standing right there.
 

Spooky Owl!

Telly Talk Supreme
LV
5
 
Awards
15
It was confirmed in the book Mary and Lou and Rhoda and Ted: And All the Brilliant Minds Who Made the Mary Tyler Moore Show a Classic, which contained interviews with most key players related to the series. The role of Ted was written with Cassidy in mind but he turned it down as being too similar to the role he played in the short lived sitcom HE & SHE. (Lyle Waggoner was also considered.)

So, it's been confirmed. Hmmm...

Although I like the episode because it gave insight and focus to Ted, I did not care for Cassidy or the role. We dodged a bullet with the possibility of Cassidy playing Ted, as I don't think he could have brought any of the bumbling insecurity to the role Ted Knight did. I'm

Yes, Cassidy's pomposity was nowhere near as endearing as that of Ted. Nor as funny.

I sometimes wonder, when MTM was spinning off their characters (those not already off-spun) as the series ended in 1977, if Knight and Engel could have had their own pre-TOO CLOSE FOR COMFORT show about pair, still newly married, having to survive as Ted's brother (Hal?0 moves in with them.

But then, Cassidy had been incinerated only a few months before.
 

Spooky Owl!

Telly Talk Supreme
LV
5
 
Awards
15
MTM is a top notch sitcom from beginning to end, but some of the magic of the first season starts to fade. The wistful, melancholy vibe doesn't carry too far into the series. Maybe it was very era-specific, but it also reflects Mary's development. In the first season, she was hesitantly starting a new life. By the second season, she was settled with a solid career and good friends.

It's kind of an inevitable trade-off. That forlorn, lost thing from the cusp of the '60s/'70s was so resonant at the time -- and the first season theme actually reflects what it felt like to be a person, alive and on earth, at that specific moment in time (much like my frequently referenced snow-angels scene from LOVE STORY and all of HAROLD & MAUDE). The Beatles' last #1 song, "Long and Winding Road" was released in 1970 and seems to tap into that same, heart-broken, world-weary zeitgeist --- at the end of a terribly transformative and difficult decade like the '60s and making our uncertain move into an unsure future (as Mel O'Drama said), wiser, sadder and very, very tired.

Little did anybody realize that '60s would continue, arguably, for several more years.

(Speaking of DYNASTY, that's kind of how I feel about its excellent 1980 pilot, the scene which closes its second hour, the camera panning slowly over the Carrington gardens and closing in on Linda Evans in a second floor doorway, looking into the past she's preparing to leave --- which I always interpret, subjectively or objectively, as Krystle and her new series saying goodbye to that '60s/'70s hyphenated dual-decade as we enter that loud, revisionistic, delusionally aspirational, ridiculously self-conscious period called "the '80s" which lay ahead).

Anyway, I remember at the time, nubile though I was, noting the gentle tonal shift -- almost analyzing it correctly -- and accepting it as unavoidable. Accepting that modification of the cozy, romantic vibe to something that held additional wit (David Lloyd's entry into the show midway through helped the punchline precision) and further character development.

At the end of the day, MTM is still fundamentally "'70s," and the decade's innate melancholy likewise reduced as it went on -- although it was detectable, to a degree, even as late as the calendar year of 1980.

Interestingly, they sent director Reza Badiyi and Mary out to Minneapolis around February 1970 to get ample coverage of Moore trolling the streets and byways of the city during the winter. They came back with some choice footage, and Badiyi told the creators, Brooks & Burns, that he intended to have Mary toss her hat into the air -- and freeze frame it -- for the conclusion of the opening theme, as if Mary was somehow graduating.

The producers were incredulous. But then Sonny Curtis showed up, because he'd heard this new show with Mary Tyler Moore was in pre-production and that they might need a theme song. Brooks was pleasant but detached, assuming most song offerings wouldn't be appropriate and assured Curtis that it was too early to pick a song. Still, Brooks listened. And listened again. Started looking for a phone. Called more people in to listen to it. Asked somebody to find a cassette tape recorder. And by the time Curtis had played it maybe ten times, the producers said, essentially, "Yes, this will be our new theme song," to which Curtis responded, "You can have it if I can sing it," and the bosses shrugged in their agreement. (Curtis also wisely hung on to the publishing rights, something that was less of a point of focus back then).

Brooks & Burns wondered: how did we get this lucky??

Curtis later said that he would never demand today that he be allowed to sing it (the industry's different now, obviously); he also confessed he was glad he had no idea of how iconic the song or the show would become, because if he had known, he's afraid he might have perfected the song to the point of ruining it.

Brooks, Burns and Curtis were all three Taurus -- and that's how the decision was made to make Mary Richards a Taurus. Seriously.

Anyhoo, the song and the Minneapolis footage of Mary occurred so early in the year (the show was mostly un-cast and they wouldn't start shooting the actual pilot episode until June) that it allowed Reza Badiyi to do his magic and use an early cut of Sonny Cuirtis' song as a template for Badiyi's montage edit.

One of the producers later said that the first rough cut of the theme, especially that early, gave them as additional sense of what the show "could be."

This is an early cut of the Season 1 theme (maybe they should have used it for the pilot) followed by a not-quite-right promo scene sent out to the affiliates:


Child actors are often the bane of a TV series, even when they're the star. Lisa Gerritsen was an unusually at-ease and amusing child performer, so it's a shame she wasn't utilized more often.

Oh, those Moon in Capricorns -- they make the very best child actors (think Gerrison, Ronny Howard, Billy Mumy, etc...) or the very worst (think Shalane McCall) who go for the simpering "I'm-so-cute/don't-you-like-me?" crap... Which explains Victoria's shift from not-so-great to totally great 4 years into DALLAS ... not that Victoria was ever a child, despite her preferred birth year.
 

Spells & Karma

Admin
LV
14
 
Awards
35
Oh, yes, it's a shift. But the Season 1 version of the opening theme is so very cusp-of-the-'60s-and-'70s. And I guess they didn't want to overdo it

Overall I'm fine with changing it up, but I'm glad the series began with the version it did (and of course, since it's been pointed out that the character and series evolved, that's the only one it could have started with).



(I always want him to sing, "Looks like you've made it after all!" for the seventh and final season -- but it only happens inside my head).

Even though I'm not there yet, I'll trust that this is true since your headcanon is always impeccable.





Spoiler alert: he never reappears. Nor is he referred to again.

Ah well. I'll adjust my expectations to roll with that one.



At the time, we made comparisons between Jack Cassidy and Ted Baxter, and then -- kapow! -- there was Cassidy. So this was a show that listened to nature.

I can see why you'd make that comparison. It didn't consciously register with me until I saw them together and the similarities were so striking I found myself wondering why I hadn't noticed earlier.




(Cassidy died in a housefire -- which he may or may not have caused himself -- in 1976. Odd, because seemalike actor, Dennis Patrick, who played DALLAS' Vaughn Leland, died the same way)

Oh - I don't think I knew that about Dennis Patrick.



I don't know if this has been mentioned, but Richard Schaal was married to Valerie Harper at the time.

I discovered this after watching the Howard's Girl episode, dropped a mention upthread and then promptly forgot about it until I read your post. Which means I missed watching his next episode with that in mind.

Incidentally, I also got confused and spent the school reunion episode thinking he was meant to be the other brother Paul (who he'd also played before).



MTM is rare among American sitcoms in that it contains genuine growth of characters and scenarios.

This is a selling point for me. I'm curious to see where it goes. As previously mentioned, I'm not sure how I'll feel about the more significant cast changes (especially the eventual departure of Rhoda), but it sounds as though it doesn't go to pot as a result of them.



Child actors are often the bane of a TV series, even when they're the star. Lisa Gerritsen was an unusually at-ease and amusing child performer, so it's a shame she wasn't utilized more often. But, of course, she was tied to Phyllis, who was a "special guest star" and best in small doses anyway.

I agree with every word of this.

Incidentally, Lisa looks very familiar to me. I could have sworn I've seen her in other things but I don't believe I've seen anything listed on her IMDb page apart from MTM and (possibly) Airport.



(Lyle Waggoner was also considered.)

I can easily picture him in the role, and I think that could have worked. Ultimately, though, I think they ended up with the perfect actor for the role in Ted Knight.



I feel the same about Nancy Walker on GOLDEN GIRLS; her Angela was too similar to Sophia for me to find all that funny.

Aha. I was wondering why Nancy seemed to familiar to me. Looking at her IMDb I'd also know her from Murder By Death.



Interestingly, they sent director Reza Badiyi and Mary out to Minneapolis around February 1970 to get ample coverage of Moore trolling the streets and byways of the city during the winter. They came back with some choice footage, and Badiyi told the creators, Brooks & Burns, that he intended to have Mary toss her hat into the air -- and freeze frame it -- for the conclusion of the opening theme, as if Mary was somehow graduating.

The producers were incredulous. But then Sonny Curtis showed up, because he'd heard this new show with Mary Tyler Moore was in pre-production and that they might need a theme song. Brooks was pleasant but detached, assuming most song offerings wouldn't be appropriate and assured Curtis that it was too early to pick a song. Still, Brooks listened. And listened again. Started looking for a phone. Called more people in to listen to it. Asked somebody to find a cassette tape recorder. And by the time Curtis had played it maybe ten times, the producers said, essentially, "Yes, this will be our new theme song," to which Curtis responded, "You can have it if I can sing it," and the bosses shrugged in their agreement. (Curtis also wisely hung on to the publishing rights, something that was less of a point of focus back then).

Oh wow.

On the subject of the opening titles, I was reading that Mary was later (re)introduced to the woman in the blue scarf, glowering at her in the background of that freeze frame:

An older woman can be seen in the background, obviously puzzled by the sight of a young woman tossing her hat in the air. This unwitting "extra" was Hazel Frederick, a lifelong Minnesota resident who happened to be out shopping the day the sequence was shot. Frederick finally met Moore in 1996 when she was on a book tour for her autobiography, After All. Moore introduced Frederick as "my co-star". Even though many people thought that the scowling woman in the opening sequence was grumpy-looking, she actually had just been concerned for Moore's safety. In 2002, on Good Morning America, Moore said, "It was so cold, I couldn't protest. The words weren't forming," she said. "So I did as I was told, and dear Hazel Frederick, who was frozen forever in the background, looking with what appears to be a scowling face at me, and she told me later, because I did meet her, that it was just that she had no idea what was going on, never saw a camera. She just thought there was a lunatic about to lose her life."

(There's a video via the link as well, but I had to stop a couple of minutes in because the subject turned to the last scene.)

That moment, by the way, reminds me of the similar one we'd get in the Cagney & Lacey opening, with red blouse woman and her husband turning to stare at Tyne and Sharon.



This is an early cut of the Season 1 theme (maybe they should have used it for the pilot) followed by a not-quite-right promo scene sent out to the affiliates

This is great. I think it's possibly a little funnier for being done in one shot. It gives an immediacy that really sells it, and shows what great chemistry there is between Mary and Ed.
 

Crimson

Telly Talk Enthusiast
LV
1
 
Awards
8
I sometimes wonder, when MTM was spinning off their characters (those not already off-spun) as the series ended in 1977, if Knight and Engel could have had their own pre-TOO CLOSE FOR COMFORT show about pair, still newly married, having to survive as Ted's brother (Hal?0 moves in with them.

Not a bad idea, although Ted Knight would likely have resisted. He was one of those actors who deeply resented his character. Ted's evolution was perhaps the least organic on the show, because much of it was driven by Knight's dissatisfaction with his character.

At the end of the day, MTM is still fundamentally "'70s," and the decade's innate melancholy likewise reduced as it went on -- although it was detectable, to a degree, even as late as the calendar year of 1980.

Shows that run the gamut of a decade are often reflective of the shifting zeitgeist, but can also help shape it. I think both are true of MTM.

those Moon in Capricorns -- they make the very best child actors (think Gerrison, Ronny Howard, Billy Mumy, etc...)

The parallel with Ronny Howard is interesting because he was the gold standard of child actors; I think Gerrison was one of his few equals, even if she didn't get the same opportunities.

I can easily picture him in the role, and I think that could have worked. Ultimately, though, I think they ended up with the perfect actor for the role in Ted Knight.

I suspect if Waggoner had been cast -- and I think he was only considered, not offered -- the producers would likely have leaned into a romance with Mary, which would have put the show onto a very different trajectory.
 
Last edited:
Top