Most dishonest, manipulative show

Kenny Coyote

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That's a great question-- unfortunately, autistics like myself take things quite literally, and though we might want to just accept that a show is just a fictional story, our autistic brains won't let us; that phenomenon is called "Everybody is Jesus in Purgatory." Have you ever heard of that?

No, I haven't. I don't know a lot about autism. I know there are different levels of autism and some autistics are able to function much better than others who have a more severe form of it. Clearly, you're a high functioning person with autism.

Is autism a condition that makes people find it difficult to recognize non-verbal cues when socializing with other people? That they just take the words at face value, they take them very literally, and don't notice the way the words are said and how it affects the intended meaning? Or if they're acting in a way that makes people uncomfortable, they don't notice it, because they're very self-absorbed?

Do they tend to focus so much on the details that they don't see the big picture - as in the saying "Not being able to see the forest for the trees." Some people get so bogged down in minor details that that's what happens. I don't know if that is a sign of autism or not.

Could you explain the meaning of: ""Everybody is Jesus in Purgatory"?
 
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Snarky Oracle!

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Again, I think we need to clarify the meaning of "manipulation" in this context -- I get the impression that the title of this thread uses the word to mean a disingenuous or dishonest approach to characterization and drama, as opposed to the natural, benign manipulation storytellers use to create a fictional dynamic.

One is a multi-level lie, while the other is just good plotting.

Most of early-to-mid DALLAS, most of KNOTS, the first three seasons of FALCON CREST, and S1 and S2 and S9 of DYNASTY, were all pretty good storytelling, and whatever manipulations used by the producers to create them just involved the skillful arts of good fiction. Which aren't a lie per se, because the audience is in on it.

On the other hand, Season 3 thru 8 of DYNASTY, and almost all of LITTLE HOUSE, are indeed manipulative -- in the negative sense -- because they're trying to sell you a bill of goods which is totally dishonest even within the context of something that is already fiction.

Late DALLAS, and the last half (at least) of FALCON CREST are just crappy --- they're not even manipulative; they're just pointlessly silly.
 

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Kenny Coyote

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Again, I think we need to clarify the meaning of "manipulation" in this context -- I get the impression that the title of this thread uses the word to mean a disingenuous or dishonest approach to characterization and drama, as opposed to the natural, benign manipulation storytellers use to create a fictional dynamic.

One is a multi-level lie, while the other is just good plotting.

Most of early-to-mid DALLAS, most of KNOTS, the first three seasons of FALCON CREST, and S1 and S2 and S9 of DYNASTY, were all pretty good storytelling, and whatever manipulations used by the producers to create them just involved the skillful arts of good fiction. Which aren't a lie per se, because the audience is in on it.

On the other hand, Season 3 thru 8 of DYNASTY, and almost all of LITTLE HOUSE, are indeed manipulative -- in the negative sense -- because they're trying to sell you a bill of goods which is totally dishonest even within the context of something that is already fiction.

Late DALLAS, and the last half (at least) of FALCON CREST are just crappy --- they're not even manipulative; they're just pointlessly silly.

I agree that we need to clarify the meaning of manipulation in the context of this thread - otherwise we're not all discussing the same thing.

I'm trying to understand the definition you put forth and my question is: Since we're talking about fictional stories, what would a "disingenuous or dishonest approach" consist of? What is the objective a producer of a show wants to achieve through that type of manipulation?

Finally, is it necessarily a bad thing? As far as I know, LHOP was a very beloved, very successful show millions of people got a lot of enjoyment from watching. Where is the harm in that?

EDIT: I'm trying to imagine what a disingenuous approach would be. Would a show that has a character who uses cocaine several times a day for years and never has any consequences from it, but just has fun with it be the "manipulation" you're describing since it glamorizes cocaine use? I'd call that unrealistic and probably irresponsible, but not manipulative.
 
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Kenny Coyote

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I think it was one of Kenny Coyote's threads about 'Is Dallas art?' And I said Dallas was more obviously manipulative than something like The Sopranos or The Wire in that it was blatantly signposting what was meant to be important or dramatic or sad or ominous, but that I didn't mind cos it was all part of the fun.

I have seen a lot of episodes of The Sopranos. If I recall, the difference was Dallas used a score and The Sopranos didn't. Maybe you find that to be "blatantly signposting" what was meant to be important, but to me, it's only a matter of two different styles of making a show. The people who made The Sopranos didn;t hire musicians to create a score, and that's fine that they didn't do that, but any classic, legendary movie I can think of had a score. I don't see anything dishonest about using music to heighten emotion in a scene. It enhances my enjoyment of the product when there is a sad scene and the music adds to the impact of the scene. That's the purpose of having a score - a movie or show has more impact with a well written and well played score. By the same token, a poorly written, poorly play score can and does diminish the impact of what should be a powerful scene. When it's done badly enough it can make a serious scene laughable. When it's done well, there's nothing better than the combination of a well acted scene accompanied with a good score.
 

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If I recall, the difference was Dallas used a score and The Sopranos didn't.

The discussion was a while ago, but I think there was more to it than that.
 

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The discussion was a while ago, but I think there was more to it than that.

I'm sure there were. The thread was asking people if they considered Dallas art, so not all of it applies to this thread anyway. The thing that I'd like to know is if these tremendously successful shows like Dynasty and Little House on The Prairie manipulated the audience, what is dishonest about it? People got a lot of enjoyment out of watching them and if they didn't, they could stop watching anytime they wanted so I don't see any harm in it.

I keep seeing LHOP called a"Christian"show" and maybe the characters were portrayed as such, but there was no Christian agenda. The people behind LHOP were libertarians - they were atheists! The main guy behind it was Roger MacBride who is a real sleazeball, and he was the Libertarian candidate for president back in the 70s. He's anything but a Christian. He's a crook!

I think being dishonest is lying to the fans and doing something like falsely advertising and saying your movie is starring (name of famous movie star), so people pay to go see it, and the actor is only in 5 minutes of the movie. They're ripping off the fans when they promise them something and then don't deliver. It's hard or impossible to do that on a soap because if the fans feel cheated badly enough, they'll stop watching and the show will get cancelled. You can stop watching a movie and walk out of it, but they already have your money, so that's a lot worse.
 
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Snarky Oracle!

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I agree that we need to clarify the meaning of manipulation in the context of this thread - otherwise we're not all discussing the same thing.
My point exactly and obviously.
Kenny Coyote said:
I'm trying to understand the definition you put forth and my question is: Since we're talking about fictional stories, what would a "disingenuous or dishonest approach" consist of? What is the objective a producer of a show wants to achieve through that type of manipulation?

So all fiction is equally dishonest?
Finally, is it necessarily a bad thing? As far as I know, LHOP was a very beloved, very successful show millions of people got a lot of enjoyment from watching. Where is the harm in that?
Lots. The fans of that show all like to be lied to --- and not because the show is fiction.
 

Kenny Coyote

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So all fiction is equally dishonest?


That's not an answer to: What would a "disingenuous or dishonest approach" consist of?

if you want people to all be using the same definition of manipulation, you should be able to describe some of the tactics involved in manipulation.

Lots. The fans of that show all like to be lied to --- and not because the show is fiction.

That doesn't answer the question: "Where is the harm in that"? According to you, the show gives them what they like.
 

Snarky Oracle!

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That's not an answer to: What would a "disingenuous or dishonest approach" consist of?

if you want people to all be using the same definition of manipulation, you should be able to describe some of the tactics involved in manipulation.



That doesn't answer the question: "Where is the harm in that"? According to you, the show gives them what they like.
You're not interested in answers or discussion.
 

Willie Oleson

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I keep seeing LHOP called a"Christian"show" and maybe the characters were portrayed as such, but there was no Christian agenda
Here in Holland it was shown by the Evangelische Omroep (Evangelic Broadcast) because it had lots of God related topics but that doesn't mean there has to be an agenda.
It's also not relevant who produced it, the only thing that matters is what I see happening on screen.
It's a sappy and unrealistic melodrama with lots of likeable characters and all sorts of adventures. Viva Las House On The Prairie!
 

Jimmy Todd

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Again, I think we need to clarify the meaning of "manipulation" in this context -- I get the impression that the title of this thread uses the word to mean a disingenuous or dishonest approach to characterization and drama, as opposed to the natural, benign manipulation storytellers use to create a fictional dynamic.

One is a multi-level lie, while the other is just good plotting.

Most of early-to-mid DALLAS, most of KNOTS, the first three seasons of FALCON CREST, and S1 and S2 and S9 of DYNASTY, were all pretty good storytelling, and whatever manipulations used by the producers to create them just involved the skillful arts of good fiction. Which aren't a lie per se, because the audience is in on it.

On the other hand, Season 3 thru 8 of DYNASTY, and almost all of LITTLE HOUSE, are indeed manipulative -- in the negative sense -- because they're trying to sell you a bill of goods which is totally dishonest even within the context of something that is already fiction.

Late DALLAS, and the last half (at least) of FALCON CREST are just crappy --- they're not even manipulative; they're just pointlessly silly.

Since I'm the original poster of this thread, I'll address what I mean, which I think is basically what Snarky very well stated.
It's all fiction,of course, but it becomes dishonest when trying to get the audience to feel a very specific way about a situation takes precedence over plot and characterization. This has been done on shows in subtle and not so subtle ways. The "Very Special Episodes" of 1980's sitcoms during sweeps months are the most obvious.
In Dynasty season 1 the Krystle, Matthew, Claudia triangle was presented honestly, if I recall it correctly. They were three adults who were basically all good people, but all had committed adultry. Krystle wasn't presented as the saint who had an epic love for Prince Charming Matthew. Claudia wasn't a caricature of a person struggling with a mental illness. A serious storyline was given to the viewer and we were left to have a serious reaction to it in a whatever way we wanted. We weren't pushed to take sides. Later in the series the show seemed to blast the viewer with, "Krystle is the heroine of the show! She is all good and pure!" This was done in a clunky, poorly written manner, but that's the message. It's dishonest in how I see the term because the show is telling me to feel something very specific that isn't entirely true.(She had an affair with a married man whose wife was hospitalized.)
The show did the same with Jeff. He was presented as one of the "good guys," when the truth is, while he wasn't evil, he was kind of a dirtbag and a womanizer.
I'll throw out another example involving the contentious issue of abortion. Hollywood is vastly on the "left" of this issue. There are several examples when it isn't just presented and the viewer may decide for themselves how they feel about the scenario on the program, but they must feel a certain, very narrow way. For example, there is an episode of "Cagney and Lacy" that addresses that issue. Pro- choice characters are reasonable and intelligent. The main proponent of the pro-life side was a hypocritical, alcohol Irishman who seemed brought on just to present that side of the issue.
The famous episode of "Maude" in which the eponymous character has an abortion is so heavy handed in its viewpoint it sounds as if the characters were reading from Planned Parenthood literature, not as real people would speak regardless of their views. Indeed they might as well have been because as it turns out, a pro-choice group paid the show to do that episode, which came several months before the Supreme Court's Roe v. Wade decision.
Honest depictions of people reacting to that subject were actually on "Dallas" and "Knots Landing." When Lucy has an abortion after she is raped, she reacts, Pam reacts, and Bobby gives his opinion when Pam tells him about it. The viewer is left to decide how they feel about it and the characters. When Jenna is contemplating aborting Bobby's baby, Ray and Donna discuss it, taking different sides. Ray is the pro-choice side, Donns more towards the pro-life side. It fit their characters and it wasn't some heavy handed "All people who feel uncomfortable with abortion are ignorant, old white men" nonsense. Even Pam's role in that storyline is good because it has levels to it the viewer may feel good, bad or anywhere in between if they want. A person could be more pro life, but still not love what Pam was doing.
On KL, Karen and Laura both grapple with the issue and it's done in a way that is true to their characters, yet I don't feel as if I'm hearing a politician lecture me. Based on things I've read David Jacobs say about himself and Karen, I'm reasonably sure where he stands on the issue, but I never felt the show wanted a specific reaction from the viewer.
That's how I see the concept of a television show being dishonest and manipulative.
 
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Willie Oleson

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He was presented as one of the "good guys," when the truth is, while he wasn't evil, he was kind of a dirtbag and a womanizer
But why write him as a dirtbag if you want to manipulate the audience into thinking that he was a really great and likeable guy? Isn't that like sabotaging the manipulation?
 

Kenny Coyote

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A serious storyline was given to the viewer and we were left to have a serious reaction to it in a whatever way we wanted. We weren't pushed to take sides. Later in the series the show seemed to blast the viewer with, "Krystle is the heroine of the show! She is all good and pure!" This was done in a clunky, poorly written manner, but that's the message. It's dishonest in how I see the term because the show is telling me to feel something very specific that isn't entirely true.(She had an affair with a married man whose wife was hospitalized.)

When a show does that, it seems like they're pushing an agenda. It looks like they want to teach people to adopt their ethics. They're not qualified to teach ethics. All they're qualified to do is entertain.
 

Kenny Coyote

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Here in Holland it was shown by the Evangelische Omroep (Evangelic Broadcast) because it had lots of God related topics but that doesn't mean there has to be an agenda.
It's also not relevant who produced it, the only thing that matters is what I see happening on screen.

You're right, there doesn't have to be an agenda, but sometimes there is one. If a show does have an agenda, then who produced it is relevant because it's their agenda.
 
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