Pam vs JR

[Sarah]

Just reading the other thread about Dallas After Pam by @Angela Channing brought another thought into my head which I hope we can discuss. It has probably been debated before but would be good to chat about again.

When Dallas was written, there were (according to the wonderful The Complete Book of Dallas by Suzy Katler) two central figures - Pam and JR, the protagonist and antagonist, central to every good storyline. We meet Pam as a 'damn Barnes' and JR as the sneaky, not to be trusted eldest son of Jock and Ellie Ewing. Bobby's marriage to Pam goes down like a fart in a spacesuit and JR isn't best pleased.

Over the years, Pam remained an important part of the show, but her character became eclipsed by JR with the eventual outcome that JR did, for many, become the most important character of the show. Does everyone see it that way?

I think there is an argument (or debate!) to be had that either character were as important as each other, but also an argument that JR was more important. Given that Pam was not actually a blood Barnes could take away from her significance to the show (disclaimer - I know it doesn't!).

JR's character grew over the years to the point that he was in every episode, and when Larry passed away most people said that Dallas died with him. However, I'm aware that a number of viewers also switched off when Pam left.

Larry was such a brilliant actor who completely embodied the character of JR but rumour also had it during the 80's that Victoria was fed up because she had signed up for Dallas believing she was going to be the show's star.

What are your thoughts on this? Are both characters as important as each other?

 

[tommie]

I'd probably say yes - losing Bobby was bad, but losing Pam was worse. It's a shame they never let her fulfill her potential in season nine as I would've liked to see a full-blown war between Pam and JR, with the rest of the family being stuck in between. That could've been a storyline that lasted for seasons and potentially could've brought ms Principal from leaving.

But Dallas subscribed to the idea that women were hapless simpering idiots (unless you're Donna or a stunt casted guest star), so...

 

[Pammy P]

Absolutely, both characters were central to the show, when VP decided to jump ship then it sank!!!! Barnes v Ewing was the backbone of the show, and PAMELA was the link between the feuding families. OK, it was the Bobby and Pam show when it first came out but the character of JR as you say Sarah took off and he became the main function of Dallas, the baddie!

JR was the best baddie and Pamelas was the link for the feud and backstabbing, Bob was caught in the middle - compelling viewing.

 

[Sarah]

Absolutely, both characters were central to the show, when VP decided to jump ship then it sank!!!! Barnes v Ewing was the backbone of the show, and PAMELA was the link between the feuding families. OK, it was the Bobby and Pam show when it first came out but the character of JR as you say Sarah took off and he became the main function of Dallas, the baddie!

JR was the best baddie and Pamelas was the link for the feud and backstabbing, Bob was caught in the middle - compelling viewing.

Thanks @Pammy P - I've just become very curious about the whole thing. Yes, Pam is the link but she isn't a blood Barnes so the whole thing could have been avoided but I don't want to go down that road as it would mean NO DALLAS!!! :eck:

 

[Pammy P]

Yes @Sarah she was not a "blood" Barnes, fathered by Hutch McKinney, however we will never know as HM was killed and DNA was not done to prove Digger was NOT her Father, so in essence he could have been her natural father! Only Rebecca Blake Barnes Wentworth would know and I don't this was touched on ever in the show. Shame they did not bring Rebecca back when Digger was around to have sorted this out, Rebecca and Digger face to face, who is Pam's father!!! Rather have the storyline we had, or as you say "NO DALLAS"!

 

[Angela Chilling]

For me, Dallas first and foremost was about the Barnes Ewing feud and Pamela was essential to personalising it rather that it just being played out as 2 rival business adversaries. She was therefore every bit as essential as JR in the shows success, although I think JR was more important. I think the character suffered from Victoria not being part of the Larry, Patrick and Linda "Three Amigos" clique, especially when Larry became executive producer, and other characters became more important at the expense of Pamela. When she left the show, the emotional side of the conflict between the Barnes and Ewing families went and it was weaker for it.

 

[Sarah]

Yes @Sarah Rather have the storyline we had, or as you say "NO DALLAS"!

OMG my life would have been SO different!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :eck:

It remains to be seen whether Victoria created that divide for herself but something definitely went on! Hence why she wasn't asked to do TNT. A tell all book must happen

Enjoying reading your views everyone! And thanks, I know it's a sticky old subject

 

[Kenny Coyote]

I'd probably say yes - losing Bobby was bad, but losing Pam was worse. It's a shame they never let her fulfill her potential in season nine as I would've liked to see a full-blown war between Pam and JR, with the rest of the family being stuck in between. That could've been a storyline that lasted for seasons and potentially could've brought ms Principal from leaving.

But Dallas subscribed to the idea that women were hapless simpering idiots (unless you're Donna or a stunt casted guest star), so...

You wanted to se a war between Pam and JR? A war over what? She and JR were working for the same company - Ewing Oil - in season 9. They were on the same side. This was not a scenario like the one Jock's will set up where Bobby and JR were in a contest for control of Ewing Oil. There was no longer any contest going on that would have even given Pam the opportunity to compete with JR to see who would win control of Ewing Oil. The scenario they were in by season 9 is both JR and Pam wanted Ewing Oil to prosper for the sake of each of their sons. So again, what would the war have been over and what would the victor have gained?

The only way Pam could have gone to war against JR would have been by selling Christopher's birthright out from under him, depriving him of the opportunity Bobby wanted Christopher to have - to continue running Ewing Oil in the next generation, and then starting a war pitting Wentworth vs Ewing Oil. How would any war in the oil business between Pam and JR even have been considered close or compelling? JR spent all his life wanting to work in the oil business. Pam didn't. JR learned the oil business from his father since he was a young boy. Then he earned a business degree from The University Of Texas in Austin. Pam had nothing more than a high school diploma and a background in women's clothing. Pam had none of the credentials she would have needed to make such a war convincing or believable. As she told Bobby, she lacked the stomach for fighting. She abandoned Bobby twice because she couldn't take being around the competition and fighting regarding the oil business and she wasn't even directly involved it then she was just on the periphery of it yet couldn't stand the pressure of being married to a man who was fighting to win the contest for Ewing Oil. A woman suited for fighting a war against JR Ewing in their business would have stood beside her man as he struggled to win the contest but Pam showed herself incapable of that. She abandoned Bobby to get away from even being around the contest.

So in addition to lacking any of the necessary background credentials for fighting JR, she lacked the guts to fight such a war. She hated fighting. Pam ultimately divorced Bobby to get away from the competition that was going on between JR and Bobby for control of Ewing Oil that year. She wasn't in the fight for Ewing Oil; she was just around it and couldn't even stomach that. She hated fighting but to be a great fighter you have to love it and have to have the necessary credentials to know how to do it well. Pam neither had the credentials to work at anywhere near the top level of the oil business and she also lacked the guts to fight and the love of competition.

In every conceivable measure of what would make a great opponent for JR, Pam failed to even come close to measuring up in every single relevant aspect including education, experience, love of the business, the love of competition and having the guts and mental toughness to not only be able to spend one's life competing at the highest levels of the independent oil industry but to thrive in doing so.

 

[ArchieLucasCarringtonEwing1989]

I have always seen it this way: JR was the heart of DALLAS, Pam was its energy! DALLAS really couldn't have gone on with either of them and it was proven when Pam left, the energy was gone, if JR had left it would've been equally as disastrous.

Pam and JR are the big two of the series, hence why I liked it when Pam separated from Bobby as she gained her own clique against the Ewings; Pam, Mark, Cliff, Afton and Katherine: The Pam Gang as it where, and for the first time Bobby really was stuck in the middle between his ex wife who he still loved and his older brother who he respected and loved.

Season 9 was an opportunity to see Pam and JR put their differences aside and work against a larger enemy, which they sort of did, they had to think about two very important people: John Ross & Christopher, while I would've liked to have seen an all out war between the two its as @Kenny Coyote says it would've been impractical, Pam never wanted anything to do with oil of any kind, she was fighter for sure, but not in oil, if anything I would see JR mentoring Pam, as a mutual respect between them grows as a larger and bigger enemy threatens them all and Pam and JR are literally the last two standing.

Both characters are smart, both are resourceful, both aren't afraid to stand alone against a majority and come through unscathed.
Bobby's death was sad, but also the reboot DALLAS needed in 1985, Pam's departure threw the Dallasverse out of synchronicity in 1987 and it never really recovered.

 

[tommie]

Okay then put it this way: Pam and JR are begrudgingly working together during season nine with the tension building. Whatever cliffhanger leads into season ten, it makes Pam go into proper war mode against JR - now ironically seasoned by JR himself. There you have two full seasons of plot.

 

[Spooky Owl!]

You wanted to se a war between Pam and JR? A war over what? She and JR were working for the same company - Ewing Oil - in season 9. They were on the same side. This was not a scenario like the one Jock's will set up where Bobby and JR were in a contest for control of Ewing Oil. There was no longer any contest going on that would have even given Pam the opportunity to compete with JR to see who would win control of Ewing Oil. The scenario they were in by season 9 is both JR and Pam wanted Ewing Oil to prosper for the sake of each of their sons. So again, what would the war have been over and what would the victor have gained?

Why did they fight around the house? JR didn't want her there. And she refused to leave (all that often).

That's enough. It would have been even worse around the office.

As Sue Ellen explained to Jamie once, the enmity between Pam and JR was because they both "have strong personalities" but mostly "because she's a Barnes."

 

[Kenny Coyote]

Why did they fight around the house? JR didn't want her there. And she refused to leave (all that often).

That's enough. It would have been even worse around the office.

As Sue Ellen explained to Jamie once, the enmity between Pam and JR was because they both "have strong personalities" but mostly "because she's a Barnes."

She did leave though. Pam left twice and the second time she didn't just leave for a week or two; she divorced Bobby because she said "I don't have the stomach to be on your team." Not exactly a ringing endorsement for someone who would be any sort of competition for JR.

So far nobody has answered: You wanted to se a war between Pam and JR? A war over what? She and JR were working for the same company - Ewing Oil - in season 9. They were on the same side. This was not a scenario like the one Jock's will set up where Bobby and JR were in a contest for control of Ewing Oil. There was no longer any contest going on that would have even given Pam the opportunity to compete with JR to see who would win control of Ewing Oil. The scenario they were in by season 9 is both JR and Pam wanted Ewing Oil to prosper for the sake of each of their sons. So again, what would the war have been over and what would the victor have gained?

 

[Spooky Owl!]

She did leave though. Pam left twice and the second time she didn't just leave for a week or two; she divorced Bobby because she said "I don't have the stomach to be on your team." Not exactly a ringing endorsement for someone who would be any sort of competition for JR.

Yes, she left twice.

Which is why I said: "And she refused to leave (all that often)."

So far nobody has answered: You wanted to se a war between Pam and JR? A war over what?

So far almost everybody has answered. You just don't accept those answers because they don't align with your fantasies.

 

[Kenny Coyote]

Yes, she left twice.

Which is why I said: "And she refused to leave (all that often)."

So far almost everybody has answered. You just don't accept those answers because they don't align with your fantasies.

My "fantasies"? I'm not saying Pam should have waged war against JR. I had no desire to see JR in a "war" against Pam -the least qualified, most poorly suited candidate for an opponent he ever had. That might be your fantasy and the fantasy of a few other people here but it's certainly not mine.. You've mentioned many times that you felt robbed of seeing a war between Pam and JR after Bobby "died." Apparently you fantasized about seeing Pam waging war against JR in the oil industry although when asked how she would have done that considering they were both running Ewing Oil for a while and with the same goals - leaving a bigger, stronger company for their sons to run, you have no ideas as to how this fantasy storyline would have been executed.

I like the reality of the storyline they actually did regarding Pam and JR running Ewing Oil in season 9. The way they had Pam sell Christopher's 30% to JR made sense because it got her out of a high pressure job in an industry she not only never had any passion for but instead actively disliked as it was an industry she blamed for the death of her mother and also blamed for her and Bobby's marriage failing. So her getting herself out of Ewing Oil while also possibly sparing her son from having the same sort of fights for control of Ewing Oil with John Ross that Bobby had with JR was perfectly in character for Pam; it made sense!

I suspect you haven't described how your fantasy war between Pam and JR in the oil business would have manifested itself because the reality of how Pam's character was depicted in Dallas doesn't align with your fantasy of Pam somehow miraculously acquiring the guts, a strong enough stomach, and the requisite mental toughness for competing at the highest levels of the independent oil industry in a war against perhaps the dirtiest player in the game. The way Dallas portrayed Pam's character over the years showed she lacked the willingness and desire and the requisite credentials necessary for providing JR with any sort of serious challenge.

To put it another way, the Pam that Dallas depicted - the Pam who was shown to be so ill suited for waging a war against JR that she was unwilling to even stand by Bobby during the contest for Ewing Oil - left Bobby because she didn't have the stomach to even be on the periphery of a fight between Bobby and JR is a character whose qualities as the show actually depicted them don't align with the fantasy version of Pam you've created in you own mind - the Pam who would have had both the inclination to embroil herself in some type of war in the oil industry against JR Ewing and the competence and expertise to prove herself a serious and compelling challenge to JR in that type of war.

 

[Spooky Owl!]

My "fantasies"? I'm not saying Pam should have waged war against JR. I had no desire to see JR in a "war" against Pam -the least qualified, most poorly suited candidate for an opponent he ever had. That might be your fantasy and the fantasy of a few other people here but it's certainly not mine.. You've mentioned many times that you felt robbed of seeing a war between Pam and JR after Bobby "died." Apparently you fantasized about seeing Pam waging war against JR in the oil industry although when asked how she would have done that considering they were both running Ewing Oil for a while and with the same goals - leaving a bigger, stronger company for their sons to run, you have no ideas as to how this fantasy storyline would have been executed.

I like the reality of the storyline they actually did regarding Pam and JR running Ewing Oil in season 9. The way they had Pam sell Christopher's 30% to JR made sense because it got her out of a high pressure job in an industry she not only never had any passion for but instead actively disliked as it was an industry she blamed for the death of her mother and also blamed for her and Bobby's marriage failing. So her getting herself out of Ewing Oil while also possibly sparing her son from having the same sort of fights for control of Ewing Oil with John Ross that Bobby had with JR was perfectly in character for Pam; it made sense!

I suspect you haven't described how your fantasy war between Pam and JR in the oil business would have manifested itself because the reality of how Pam's character was depicted in Dallas doesn't align with your fantasy of Pam somehow miraculously acquiring the guts, a strong enough stomach, and the requisite mental toughness for competing at the highest levels of the independent oil industry in a war against perhaps the dirtiest player in the game. The way Dallas portrayed Pam's character over the years showed she lacked the willingness and desire and the requisite credentials necessary for providing JR with any sort of serious challenge.

To put it another way, the Pam that Dallas depicted - the Pam who was shown to be so ill suited for waging a war against JR that she was unwilling to even stand by Bobby during the contest for Ewing Oil - left Bobby because she didn't have the stomach to even be on the periphery of a fight between Bobby and JR is a character whose qualities as the show actually depicted them don't align with the fantasy version of Pam you've created in you own mind - the Pam who would have had both the inclination to embroil herself in some type of war in the oil industry against JR Ewing and the competence and expertise to prove herself a serious and compelling challenge to JR in that type of war.

But that reasoning makes sense to you. Yet it isn't universal. Hence, it's your fantasy that it is.

 

[Presea]

You wanted to se a war between Pam and JR? A war over what? She and JR were working for the same company - Ewing Oil - in season 9. They were on the same side. This was not a scenario like the one Jock's will set up where Bobby and JR were in a contest for control of Ewing Oil. There was no longer any contest going on that would have even given Pam the opportunity to compete with JR to see who would win control of Ewing Oil. The scenario they were in by season 9 is both JR and Pam wanted Ewing Oil to prosper for the sake of each of their sons. So again, what would the war have been over and what would the victor have gained?

The only way Pam could have gone to war against JR would have been by selling Christopher's birthright out from under him, depriving him of the opportunity Bobby wanted Christopher to have - to continue running Ewing Oil in the next generation, and then starting a war pitting Wentworth vs Ewing Oil. How would any war in the oil business between Pam and JR even have been considered close or compelling? JR spent all his life wanting to work in the oil business. Pam didn't. JR learned the oil business from his father since he was a young boy. Then he earned a business degree from The University Of Texas in Austin. Pam had nothing more than a high school diploma and a background in women's clothing. Pam had none of the credentials she would have needed to make such a war convincing or believable. As she told Bobby, she lacked the stomach for fighting. She abandoned Bobby twice because she couldn't take being around the competition and fighting regarding the oil business and she wasn't even directly involved it then she was just on the periphery of it yet couldn't stand the pressure of being married to a man who was fighting to win the contest for Ewing Oil. A woman suited for fighting a war against JR Ewing in their business would have stood beside her man as he struggled to win the contest but Pam showed herself incapable of that. She abandoned Bobby to get away from even being around the contest.

So in addition to lacking any of the necessary background credentials for fighting JR, she lacked the guts to fight such a war. She hated fighting. Pam ultimately divorced Bobby to get away from the competition that was going on between JR and Bobby for control of Ewing Oil that year. She wasn't in the fight for Ewing Oil; she was just around it and couldn't even stomach that. She hated fighting but to be a great fighter you have to love it and have to have the necessary credentials to know how to do it well. Pam neither had the credentials to work at anywhere near the top level of the oil business and she also lacked the guts to fight and the love of competition.

In every conceivable measure of what would make a great opponent for JR, Pam failed to even come close to measuring up in every single relevant aspect including education, experience, love of the business, the love of competition and having the guts and mental toughness to not only be able to spend one's life competing at the highest levels of the independent oil industry but to thrive in doing so.

One thing that you have to remember is the concept of the Mary Sue when it comes to writing. If they had decided to make Pam fight JR, it did not have to make sense. As long as the writers wanted to please fans of Pam, they could have made her do anything they wanted, regardless of her lack of business experience. It was the same thing with Sue Ellen running Valentine Lingerie. As long as the fans thought that their favorite characters looked strong and successful, I think that a lot of them didn't care how unrealistic it was.

 

[Kenny Coyote]

One thing that you have to remember is the concept of the Mary Sue when it comes to writing. If they had decided to make Pam fight JR, it did not have to make sense. As long as the writers wanted to please fans of Pam, they could have made her do anything they wanted, regardless of her lack of business experience. It was the same thing with Sue Ellen running Valentine Lingerie. As long as the fans thought that their favorite characters looked strong and successful, I think that a lot of them didn't care how unrealistic it was.

A lot of Dallas fans did care about having a certain amount of realism though. If they hadn't, Bobby's return with the explanation "it was just a dream" would have been accepted instead of becoming the joke it became. If you look at the height of Dallas popularity it was the "Who Shot J.R." storyline and that was back when the show was grittier and more realistic than it became in the mid 80s onward.

You're right that there are some fans who don't care about realism and there are even a few of those types of fans on this board. It's people who say they wanted to see Pam fight JR yet find themselves unable to explain even the most basic questions such as what would the fight have been about, what would have been the objective - namely what would Pam seeking to gain by winning, etc.

In some cases it even gets to the point where they disregard the character of Pam that was depicted throughout the entire show and substitute a different character for Pam entirely - one who has the desire to learn the oil business (despite her never once having asked Bobby to teach her the business or get her a job at Ewing Oil), a Pam that apparently never tried to help Miss Ellie overturn Jock's will because she couldn't stand even being on the periphery of the contest between Bobby and JR which turned into a fight intense enough that she actually moved out of Southfork, separating from Bobby and eventually divorcing him because the contest or fight for Ewing Oil was something that bothered her so much she couldn't even find the strength to stand by Bobby and offer him moral support in his contest with JR, claiming she didn't "have the stomach to" do so.

 

[Spooky Owl!]

You're right that there are some fans who don't care about realism and there are even a few of those types of fans on this board. It's people who say they wanted to see Pam fight JR yet find themselves unable to explain even the most basic questions such as what would the fight have been about, what would have been the objective - namely what would Pam seeking to gain by winning, etc.

The problem is that your definition of "realism" is any scenario which flatters the Great White Fathers, completely and totally.

And when you say people are "unable to explain even the most basic questions such as what would the fight have been about" what you really mean is "to your own satisfaction" -- because we have indeed explained why JR and Pam would fight at Ewing Oil: for the same reason they fought at Southfork... She was a Barnes.

That's pretty basic.

But as always you keep trying to make your own rigidity and shallowness into a virtue.

 

[Karin]

To get back to the original question. I think that although a lot of people perceive JR as the most important character in Dallas and that the show is dead without him I think Dallas was really an ensemble piece with several important characters that played off each other so well and that was what created that special Dallas dynamic.

JR might have been the driving force in a lot of plots and the one who schemed and stirred up trouble so in that sense he was the most important character in Dallas. But if he didn't have anyone to cause trouble for that we cared about, like Pam, his schemes lost some of it's previous sting and became not as interesting as before.

So in that sense both characters were as important.

So well no Dallas was not just about JR vs. Pam. It was about a dysfunctional family where JR, Sue Ellen, Bobby, Pam, Lucy, Miss Ellie, Ray, Donna, Jock and Cliff Barnes all filled their own functions and take away one characters and a piece of the puzzle is missing.

 

[Sarah]

Yes @Karin Schill - absolutely agree, it's an ensemble cast. I don't agree it fell apart without Pam either - I believe it fell apart as a result of core cast leaving - Linda, Barbara, Victoria, Susan especially. But I do appreciate how by the time Pam left the dynamic changed completely. However I have to say that I also feel once Sue Ellen left and her and JR had that final split, that nothing was the same again. Mainly because of how JR's character changed. So the spotlight is really put on his importance, once Linda leaves. He goes mad.