Pink Floyd needs no education

Emelee

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Julia's Gun

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Yes he's been widely criticized for attacking Zelensky but saying nothing negative about Putin invading another country and murdering innocent civilians.
What a sad joke Roger Waters is.... We don't need no education - a priveleged grammar school twat trying to be radical, he needs educating more than most...
 
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Frank Underwood

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Roger Waters is telling the truth and the media is spewing bullshit by continuing to refer to the conflict in Ukraine as an "unprovoked war."

Ukrainian extremists (Nazis) exist. Jon Stewart was roasted for giving such a person a medal:

Source: https://thegrayzone.com/2022/08/31/jon-stewart-pentagon-ukrainian-nazi-disney/

One can recognize that fact, along with the fact that the US and NATO provoked Russia without being a "Putin sympathizer." In fact, Waters said he views Putin's invasion as "the act of a gangster." Wow, so Waters recognizes Russia was provoked AND thinks Putin's a gangster? Recognizing the catalyst for war doesn't have to mean you support it.

Perhaps some people need an education in nuance.

Source: https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/roger-water-russia-ukraine-1319000/
 
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Snarky Oracle!

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The people of the Ukraine and the people of Russia are both victims of the politicians from both countries -- and of NATO.,

These things tend to be complicated and very, very dirty, and the media's simplistic versions are not reliable. Putin is a nasty dictator, it's true. But he is not the only villain in this.

Hopefully, we're not venturing into the Cuban Missile Crisis 2.0, because we don't seem to have any 'rational men' like Khrushchev and Kennedy at the helm today.

R.450f8af10205524f2d9049521267eecd
 

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The people of the Ukraine and the people of Russia are both victims of the politicians from both countries -- and of NATO.,

These things tend to be complicated and very, very dirty, and the media's simplistic versions are not reliable. Putin is a nasty dictator, it's true. But he is not the only villain in this.

Hopefully, we're not venturing into the Cuban Missile Crisis 2.0, because we don't seem to have any 'rational men' like Khrushchev and Kennedy at the helm today.

R.450f8af10205524f2d9049521267eecd
I don't understand the comments about NATO. It is basically an alliance that is supposed to preserve western democracies and freedoms.
I agree that these countries may have their issues, but what is the alternative?
It can't be every country for itself, when it comes to national defense.
It should also be noted that non-NATO countries are enjoying the benefits of its alliance, simply because of their geographic locations.
Soviet Communism and the Warsaw Pact, as well as exporting revolution were serious threats in the real world in the past,
and now Russia is demonstrating that it will take military action to extend its borders. It would be realistic to think that this would continue
and not be contained, if there was no counter to it. Terrorism is a continuing threat, and is being financed and exported by bad actors. The Rise of China is changing and will continue to change the economic power structure
and the political power structure worldwide.

I am not suggesting that there can never be a thoughtful analysis and evaluation of how to improve NATO,
but what is the alternative?

The reality of war between Russia and the Ukraine is that people are dying and suffering from
incalculable misery. I don't know all the factors that led to this, but now that it is here,
there has to be some process for dealing with it,
even though it hasn't resolved the situation

I am not dismissing other opinions. As you say, these things can be complicated.
I am suggesting that NATO is probably the best entity that we have for dealing with those
who would attack us, at least until someone has a better idea.

As far as Roger Waters, he seems to attract a lot of objections to his politics.
In 2020, Major League Baseball stopped advertising his concert, due to his criticism of Israel, for one example.
With regard to Poland, if RW expresses his opinion on a matter that Poland finds offensive,
then Poland has the right to cancel his shows.
 
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Frank Underwood

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I don't understand the comments about NATO. It is basically an alliance that is supposed to preserve western democracies and freedoms.
I agree that these countries may have their issues, but what is the alternative?
It can't be every country for itself, when it comes to national defense.
It should also be noted that non-NATO countries are enjoying the benefits of its alliance, simply because of their geographic locations.
Soviet Communism and the Warsaw Pact, as well as exporting revolution were serious threats in the real world in the past,
and now Russia is demonstrating that it will take military action to extend its borders. It would be realistic to think that this would continue
and not be contained, if there was no counter to it. Terrorism is a continuing threat, and is being financed and exported by bad actors. The Rise of China is changing and will continue to change the economic power structure
and the political power structure worldwide.

I am not suggesting that there can never be a thoughtful analysis and evaluation of how to improve NATO,
but what is the alternative?

The reality of war between Russia and the Ukraine is that people are dying and suffering from
incalculable misery. I don't know all the factors that led to this, but now that it is here,
there has to be some process for dealing with it,
even though it hasn't resolved the situation

I am not dismissing other opinions. As you say, these things can be complicated.
I am suggesting that NATO is probably the best entity that we have for dealing with those
who would attack us, at least until someone has a better idea.
The problem is that the US and NATO broke their promise to Russia. Here's an excerpt from a Salon article:

The most critical events that have been airbrushed out of the West's political narrative are the violation of agreements made by Western leaders at the end of the Cold War not to expand NATO into Eastern Europe, and the U.S.-backed coup in Ukraine in February 2014. Western mainstream media accounts date the crisis in Ukraine back to Russia's 2014 reintegration of Crimea, and the decision by ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine to secede from Ukraine as the Luhansk and Donetsk People's Republics.

But these were not unprovoked actions. They were responses to the U.S.-backed coup, in which an armed mob led by the neo-Nazi Right Sector militia stormed the Ukrainian parliament, forcing elected President Viktor Yanukovych and members of his party to flee for their lives. After the events of Jan. 6, 2021, in Washington, that scenario should now be easier for Americans to understand.

Source: https://www.salon.com/2022/02/02/in...asco-the-us-is-reaping-exactly-what-it-sowed/

Here's a lengthier excerpt from another Salon article detailing how several government officials expressed their concerns about NATO expansion:

Putin's central demand is that NATO remove troops from countries that joined the group of U.S.-allied nations after 1997. In 1990, under George H.W. Bush, Secretary of State James Baker repeatedly promised Soviet premier Mikhail Gorbachev and other Soviet leaders that if the USSR let the Warsaw Pact nations leave, NATO would not "move one inch eastward." As is detailed in declassified U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents released in 2017, Bush and the leaders of West Germany, the U.K. and France gave similar assurances.

When the German magazine Der Spiegel examined these documents and interviewed those involved, its reporters concluded that "there was no doubt that the West did everything it could to give the Soviets the impression that NATO membership was out of the question for countries like Poland, Hungary or Czechoslovakia."

Today, those three former Warsaw Pact countries and two others, in addition to the three former Baltic Soviet republics and several formerly neutral countries, are members of NATO.

Putin and other Russian leaders have complained bitterly about this Western duplicity, complaints echoed by Gorbachev. Numerous others have made similar criticisms, including former CIA Director Robert Gates, Cold War diplomat and historian George Kennan, and Jack Matlock, the last U.S. ambassador to the Soviet Union.

In 1995, 18 retired U.S. foreign service and State and Defense Department officers signed a letter denouncing these NATO recruitments, saying they would convince Russians that the U.S. was seeking to "isolate, encircle, and subordinate them." It is this NATO penetration into Russia's sphere that is the root cause of the current conflict.

Some justify NATO's expansion by claiming Russia was a threat to its neighbors. Yet in the decade after the fall of the USSR, the Russian economy and military were in catastrophic condition.

Source: https://www.salon.com/2022/01/30/ye...nt-mean-his-ukraine-demands-are-unreasonable/

As far as Roger Waters, he seems to attract a lot of objections to his politics.
In 2020, Major League Baseball stopped advertising his concert, due to his criticism of Israel, for one example.
With regard to Poland, if RW expresses his opinion on a matter that Poland finds offensive,
then Poland has the right to cancel his shows.
Criticism of Israel is often conflated with anti-semitism. However, there's a difference between criticisms of the Israeli government and the Jewish people.

Poland may have the "right" to cancel an artist's shows because they find the artist offensive. However, I certainly wouldn't perform in a country that doesn't respect free speech if I was an artist. That's the problem with cancel culture, which is clearly a global problem. Nobody should have to restrict their views to a pre-approved narrative.
 
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Emelee

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Russia is not in any way a victim. They keep on attacking neighboring countries year in and year out. Always with the submarine and armed military planes "accidentally" entering other countries soil. Always with the hacker attacks aiming to destabalize the bank & business security systems.

Sweden & Finland haven't been part of NATO, yet Russia has provocted us for so many years now. For that, you can't blame NATO or nazis or extremists. It's all on Russia.

And what about yesterday's attack on the 2 Nord Stream gaslines underwater? Two big explosions between Sweden & Poland, big enough to be felt 3000 kilometers away, causing big gas leaks. It's gaslines delivering gas from Russia to Germany. Coincidence? Of course not. The only one benefiting from such an "accident" is Russia. And considering the magnitude of the explosions deep under water, you would need what only a state military can provide.

Another little "accident" caused by Russia.

But I see that Russia's insanely huge propaganda machine is working. That's why I only trust mainstream media. They at least get fact checked and reviewed. Alternative media, not so much. I have no way of knowing if their facts are real or fake, what their agenda is and if they take their news partly from foreign propaganda machines. Russia sure studied nazi-Germany's propaganda work well. Ordinary Russians only get news approved by Putin from the state television. I feel for them.
 

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I certainly don't consider Salon to be "alternative media," but that's apparently what you're called when you try to give both sides of a story. They referred to Putin as a "tyrant" and an "amoral opportunist," while also acknowledging that he was double crossed by the US and NATO. Roger Waters referred to Putin as a "gangster" while also recognizing the role NATO, the US, and Ukrainian extremists played in the conflict. IMO, they are the truth tellers. It's those focused solely on Russia who are engaged in propaganda.

Russia-gate and the Iraq War were supposedly "fact checked" by the mainstream media too... Let's not pretend that they don't have an agenda, which amounts to US imperialism is good while imperialism waged by enemies of the US is bad. Many critics of the role that the US, NATO, and Ukraine played in this conflict have acknowledged that Putin isn't innocent, but that's not the whole story. Are we supposed to pretend that Ukraine doesn't have a Nazi problem or that the 2014 US-backed coup in Ukraine didn't take place? Are we supposed to ignore the US officials who warned against NATO expansion after the US promised NATO would not "move one inch eastward?"

It's clear from reading Waters's letter to a Ukrainian fan that he is a staunch anti-imperialist, as am I. However, that doesn't mean you don't analyze every contributing factor. It appears the only reason people are upset with Roger Waters and "alternative media" is because they rightly acknowledge that Russia isn't the sole aggressor in this conflict.
 
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Jock Ewing Fan

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Russia is not in any way a victim. They keep on attacking neighboring countries year in and year out. Always with the submarine and armed military planes "accidentally" entering other countries soil. Always with the hacker attacks aiming to destabalize the bank & business security systems.

Sweden & Finland haven't been part of NATO, yet Russia has provocted us for so many years now. For that, you can't blame NATO or nazis or extremists. It's all on Russia.

And what about yesterday's attack on the 2 Nord Stream gaslines underwater? Two big explosions between Sweden & Poland, big enough to be felt 3000 kilometers away, causing big gas leaks. It's gaslines delivering gas from Russia to Germany. Coincidence? Of course not. The only one benefiting from such an "accident" is Russia. And considering the magnitude of the explosions deep under water, you would need what only a state military can provide.

Another little "accident" caused by Russia.

But I see that Russia's insanely huge propaganda machine is working. That's why I only trust mainstream media. They at least get fact checked and reviewed. Alternative media, not so much. I have no way of knowing if their facts are real or fake, what their agenda is and if they take their news partly from foreign propaganda machines. Russia sure studied nazi-Germany's propaganda work well. Ordinary Russians only get news approved by Putin from the state television. I feel for them.
I agree with you, that Russia is no victim. They have been bad actors worldwide since the Lenin days (at the very least) and they can not be trusted to keep their word.
I just read about the Nord Stream lines - highly suspicious.
I respectfully disagree about mainstream media. I don't know about your country but in the USA, the mainstream media are little more than rubber stamps for
Big Tech, Elites, and the extreme left of the Democratic Party
 

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Jock Ewing Fan said:
I agree with you, that Russia is no victim. They have been bad actors worldwide since the Lenin days (at the very least) and they can not be trusted to keep their word.
I just read about the Nord Stream lines - highly suspicious.
Yes, although the US clearly cannot be trusted to keep their word either.

Jock Ewing Fan said:
I respectfully disagree about mainstream media. I don't know about your country but in the USA, the mainstream media are little more than rubber stamps for
Big Tech, Elites, and the extreme left of the Democratic Party
Yes, although they also rubber stamp the extreme right policies of imperialism and corporatism. They're also against actual progressivism such as social democracy.

Then again, maybe that's considered extreme left now since the military industrial complex and the corporations have all gone "woke."
 
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Jock Ewing Fan

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I certainly don't consider Salon to be "alternative media," but that's apparently what you're called when you try to give both sides of a story. They referred to Putin as a "tyrant" and an "amoral opportunist," while also acknowledging that he was double crossed by the US and NATO. Roger Waters referred to Putin as a "gangster" while also recognizing the role NATO, the US, and Ukrainian extremists played in the conflict. IMO, they are the truth tellers. It's those focused solely on Russia who are engaged in propaganda.

Russia-gate and the Iraq War were supposedly "fact checked" by the mainstream media too... Let's not pretend that they don't have an agenda, which amounts to US imperialism is good while imperialism waged by enemies of the US is bad. Many critics of the role that the US, NATO, and Ukraine played in this conflict have acknowledged that Putin isn't innocent, but that's not the whole story. Are we supposed to pretend that Ukraine doesn't have a Nazi problem or that the 2014 US-backed coup in Ukraine didn't take place? Are we supposed to ignore the US officials who warned against NATO expansion after the US promised NATO would not "move one inch eastward?"

It's clear from reading Waters's letter to a Ukrainian fan that he is a staunch anti-imperialist, as am I. However, that doesn't mean you don't analyze every contributing factor. It appears the only reason people are upset with Roger Waters and "alternative media" is because they rightly acknowledge that Russia isn't the sole aggressor in this conflict.
I find your posting to be intelligent and informative. Respectfully have to disagree with you on this one.
Wikipedia identifies Salon as "politically progressive/liberal". It was founded by David Talbot, who has a history of liberal activism, especially in San Francisco .Salon has published some highly inaccurate info, to the point where retractions were necessary.
IE "Deadly Immunity", a headline falsely claiming that Florida Governor Ron DeSantis signed a bill that would force Professors and students to register their political views with the State of Florida (how does an editor not catch that?) as well as preventing readers from using ad blockers to see its content (Cryptocurrency Mining).
Furthermore, some podcasts have reported various media (I think Salon was one that was referenced) have vilified people who criticized the Disney Star Wars trilogy, Head of Lucasfilm Kathleen Kennedy and more recent Marvel movies for simply expressing dislike for the direction and content of these movies.

Again, Sir, I support your postings as intelligent and informative, but I must respectfully disagree this time
 
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Frank Underwood

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For full context, here's the letter Roger Waters received from a Ukrainian fan and his response:

From Alina:

Hello!

My name is Alina Mitrofanova, I am 19 years old, and I live in Ukraine. Today my country is resisting the Russian invasion and the real war started by Russian president and led by Russian army.

I am a huge Pink Floyd and Roger Waters fan, and it was very important for me to hear Roger’s opinion on this whole situation. It may not seem as urgent and critical, because this war can be considered as only “our problem”, but unfortunately it rapidly becomes a catastrophe for the entire Europe and world.

The war started 11 days ago, and every day we hear sirens that signalize about bombs thrown by Russian occupants. Russia’s aggression destroys MY country, kills hundreds of innocent adults and children in MY country, and I cannot explain how many Ukrainians are forced to leave their homes and run away from this madness. Ukrainian Eastern cities are being destroyed by Russian army, hundreds of thousands of people are evacuating and becoming refugees, and their number is increasing every minute. I’m in pain, as many other Ukrainians, because it hurts a lot to see how MY country becomes a military target for Russia and its mad leader, who’s convinced that there are “neo-Nazis”, who have to be killed. It’s absolutely false, because I live here, and I can tell 200% that there are no such people there!

I ask Roger to speak publicly about this war because I still cannot understand how a person, who wrote a significant number of anti-war lyrics, hasn’t spoken about tragedy yet. Furthermore, fully understand that Roger’s point of view may be different, but I ask him to share his own opinion on this war. It’s better than just being silent, because in this situation, silence is one of the worst enemies – it’s impossible to build a wall in this situation and stay isolated from this problem.

I’m 95% sure that this letter will not be delivered to Roger directly, and it would be just a miracle if a have an answer. However, a man who speaks about risks of nuclear catastrophe and about the senselessness of the war cannot be silent in this situation. Tell the world your position!

Best regards from Ukraine,

Alina Mitrofanova


From Roger:

Dear Alina,

I read your letter, I feel your pain, I am disgusted by Putin’s invasion of Ukraine, it is a criminal mistake,
in my opinion, the act of a gangster, there must be an immediate ceasefire. I regret that Western governments are fueling the fire that will destroy your beautiful country by pouring arms into Ukraine, instead of engaging in the diplomacy that will be necessary to stop the slaughter. Rest assured if all our leaders don’t turn down the rhetoric and engage in diplomatic negotiations there will be precious little of Ukraine left when the fighting is over. A long drawn out insurgency in Ukraine would be great for the gangster hawks in Washington, it’s what they dream of, “playing the game” as they do, ”with the bravery of being out of range” I desperately hope your President is not a gangster too and that he will do what is best for his people, and demand of the Americans that they come to the table. Sadly, however, many world leaders are gangsters and my disgust for political gangsters did not start last week with Putin. I was disgusted by the gangsters Bush and Blair when they invaded Iraq in 2003, I was and still am disgusted by the gangster government of Israel’s invasion of Palestine in 1967 and its subsequent apartheid occupation of that land which has now been going on for over fifty years. I was disgusted by the gangsters Obama and Clinton ordering NATO’s illegal bombings of both Libya and Serbia. I am disgusted by the wholesale destruction of Syria initiated, as it was, in 2011 by outside interference in the cause of regime change. I was disgusted by the invasion of Lebanon in 1982 when the gangster Shimon Peres connived with the Christian Phalangist Militias in the murder of Palestinian refugees in Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in the south of that country.

I feel for you Alina, and your Mum and Dad and your uncles and aunts and brothers and sisters and cousins, I lost both my father Eric Fletcher Waters, and my grandfather George Henry Waters in wars fighting the Germans.

Please believe me when I tell you that I believe in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights signed in Paris 1948. I have fought as hard as I know how to foster and support human rights for all my brothers and sisters all over the world for as long as I can remember, and I support you and yours now, with all my heart.

Speaking of gangsters, I do have to take issue with you about one thing in your letter, your “200%” belief that there are no Neo-Nazis in your country is almost certainly mistaken. Both the Azov Battalions in your army, the National Militia and C14 are well-known self-proclaimed Neo Nazis groups. They are gangsters too.

Also, I have not been silent on Ukraine, I wrote a piece which was distributed six days ago by Globetrotter, I shall append it to this post: https://braveneweurope.com/roger-waters-the-war…

What else Alina? Well, we the people, all of us in every country in the world, including Ukraine and Russia, can fight the gangsters, we can tell them we will not be part of their obscene and deadly wars to garner power and wealth at the expense of others, we can tell them that our families, in fact, all families all over the world mean more to us than all the power and money in the world.

Where I live in the USA we can join Black Lives Matter or Code Pink or BDS or Veterans For Peace or myriad other anti-war, pro-law
, pro-freedom, pro-human rights organizations.

I will do anything I can to help effect the end of this awful war in your country, anything that is except wave a flag to encourage the slaughter. That is what the gangsters want, they want us to wave flags. That is how they divide and control us, by encouraging the waving of flags, to create a smokescreen of enmity to blind us to our innate capacity to empathize with one another, while they plunder and rape our fragile planet. I will do everything in my power to help bring peace back to you and your family and your beautiful country. The long-drawn-out war/insurgency that Hillary Clinton and Condoleezza Rice and the rest of the has been gangster Washington Hawks are encouraging is not in your nor Ukraine’s best interests.

I wish you well Alina.

Thank you for your letter, and if you chose to send a reply to this.

I will print that reply.

I promise.

Love

R.

PS. Have you got a dog? If so please send a pic.


Source: https://americansongwriter.com/roge...m-to-speak-out-invasion-is-act-of-a-gangster/
 

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Yes he's been widely criticized for attacking Zelensky but saying nothing negative about Putin invading another country and murdering innocent civilians.
What a sad joke Roger Waters is.... We don't need no education - a priveleged grammar school twat trying to be radical, he needs educating more than most...

Sadly, I will have to add Roger Waters to a list that includes Bruce Springsteen, Billy Joel, and other entertainers, whom I can no longer enjoy due to their
politics
 

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I find your posting to be intelligent and informative. Respectfully have to disagree with you on this one.
Wikipedia identifies Salon as "politically progressive/liberal". It was founded by David talbot, who has a history of liberal activism .Salon has published some highly inaccurate info, to the point where retractions were necessary.
IE "Deadly Immunity", a headline falsely claiming that Florida Governor Ron DeSantis signed a bill that would force Professors and students to register their political views with the State of Florida (how does an editor not catch that?) as well as preventing readers from using ad blockers to see its content (Cryptocurrency Mining).
Furthermore, some podcasts have reported various media (I think Salon was one that was referenced) have vilified people who criticized the Disney Star Wars trilogy, Head of Lucasfilm Kathleen Kennedy and more recent Marvel movies for simply expressing dislike for the direction and content of these movies.

Again, Sir, I support your postings as intelligent and informative, but I must respectfully disagree this time
Fair enough. I wasn't aware of all that. I still don't consider Salon to be alternative media because it's a well established media outlet. I'm not surprised they have a particular agenda, as most mainstream media does. However, the two specific Salon articles I posted in this thread appear to be well sourced and they cite specific government officials.

On top of that, other sources can be readily found online that also accuse the US and NATO of provoking Russia.

Jock Ewing Fan said:
Sadly, I will have to add Roger Waters to a list that includes Bruce Springsteen, Billy Joel, and other entertainers, whom I can no longer enjoy due to their politics
I've never had that problem with entertainers I disagree with. I'm able to compartmentalize and separate my opinion of an entertainer's political views from the art they create.
 
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Frank Underwood

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Some people are quick to accuse Russia of being behind the attack on the Nord Stream gas lines, despite President Biden vowing to "bring an end to it:"

President Joe Biden promised on February 7 to prevent Nord Stream 2 from becoming operational if Russia invaded Ukraine. "If Russia invades,” said Biden, “then there will no longer be a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it."

Reporter: "But how will you do that, exactly, since...the project is in Germany's control?"

Biden: "I promise you, we will be able to do that."

Former Polish Defense Minister Radek Sikorski accused the US of being behind the sabotage. On the other hand, Poland’s Secretary of State called that "Russian propaganda."

German magazine Der Spiegel notes that Russia could have pulled off such an attack on the pipelines, but “It is difficult to see whether Russia or Ukraine could have an interest in such an incident.” Indeed, Russia could have restricted natural gas flows like it did earlier this month when it blamed an oil leak as the excuse, without blowing up the pipelines.

And Russia has made no secret of its desire to continue to supply Europe with natural gas. On September 16, Russian President Vladimir Putin denied Russia caused Europe's energy crisis and said that if Europe wanted more natural gas it should lift the sanctions in the way of opening Nord Stream 2. "The bottom line is,” said Putin, “if you have an urge, if it's so hard for you, just lift the sanctions on Nord Stream 2, which is 55 billion cubic metres of gas per year, just push the button and everything will get going.”

Source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/michae...rmer-polish-defense-minister/?sh=6d88668c312e

Interestingly enough, it seems the CIA had advance knowledge of the impending attacks:

The C.I.A. issued a vague warning in June to a number of European nations, including Germany, that the two Nord Stream gas pipelines that carry natural gas from Russia could be targeted in forthcoming attacks, three senior officials familiar with the intelligence said on Tuesday.

The warning was not specific, the officials said, and they declined to say whether Russia itself was identified as a possible attacker.

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/27/world/europe/cia-nord-stream-pipelines-attack.html

Political Commentator Paul Joseph Watson also brought up an interesting point on Twitter. He stated "Why would Russia blow up their own pipelines to cripple energy supplies to Germany, when Nord Stream 1 stopped sending gas to Germany last month and Nord Stream 2 wasn't even operational? Genuine question."
 
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Emelee

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If you really know Russia, it makes very much sense for them to blow up their own pipelines and put the blame on others. One loss but so much more to gain. It's what Russia does best. Afterall, this is the country that sends KGB agents to poison objects for people who are against the Russian regime. Poison tea, umbrellas, you name it. The nuttier the better. Then blame others countries for it. This is what they do. This is what they make facts in their gigantic propaganda machine. They need for it to be logic or else people won't buy into it. Kreml is lethal.
 

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If you really know Russia, it makes very much sense for them to blow up their own pipelines and put the blame on others. One loss but so much more to gain. It's what Russia does best. Afterall, this is the country that sends KGB agents to poison objects for people who are against the Russian regime. Poison tea, umbrellas, you name it. The nuttier the better. Then blame others countries for it. This is what they do. This is what they make facts in their gigantic propaganda machine. They need for it to be logic or else people won't buy into it. Kreml is lethal.
Thank You Emelee. Whether or not other countries have acted in less than good faith, it doesn't excuse Russia's constant disregard
for laws, international agreements and boundaries, not to mention their support of countries that are exporting terrorism
 

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I certainly don't consider Salon to be "alternative media," but that's apparently what you're called when you try to give both sides of a story. They referred to Putin as a "tyrant" and an "amoral opportunist," while also acknowledging that he was double crossed by the US and NATO. Roger Waters referred to Putin as a "gangster" while also recognizing the role NATO, the US, and Ukrainian extremists played in the conflict. IMO, they are the truth tellers. It's those focused solely on Russia who are engaged in propaganda.

Russia-gate and the Iraq War were supposedly "fact checked" by the mainstream media too... Let's not pretend that they don't have an agenda, which amounts to US imperialism is good while imperialism waged by enemies of the US is bad. Many critics of the role that the US, NATO, and Ukraine played in this conflict have acknowledged that Putin isn't innocent, but that's not the whole story. Are we supposed to pretend that Ukraine doesn't have a Nazi problem or that the 2014 US-backed coup in Ukraine didn't take place? Are we supposed to ignore the US officials who warned against NATO expansion after the US promised NATO would not "move one inch eastward?"

It's clear from reading Waters's letter to a Ukrainian fan that he is a staunch anti-imperialist, as am I. However, that doesn't mean you don't analyze every contributing factor. It appears the only reason people are upset with Roger Waters and "alternative media" is because they rightly acknowledge that Russia isn't the sole aggressor in this conflict.
But countries in the Baltic, Poland, Hungary etc are sovereign nations with the right to make agreements and secure their borders.
I thought all member states of Nato had a voice in who can be a member.
Why should Russia have veto power over another sovereign nation's rights?
 
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