The Muppet Show - Disney adds warning over negative stereotypes

[thomaswak]

Of course not. But Disney is not the prime example of what's right & wrong. They surely care much more about their own image than human values. Like most corporate companies I guess.

Criticism of the Walt Disney Company - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Sarah]

Disney is a multi billion pound/dollar etc corporation but my understanding is that they do and must take their educational responsibilities very seriously considering their involvement with children.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

better a silly disclaimer than corporate censorship.

Yes. That's about my take on it. I'd far prefer material that's considered offensive in some way isn't hidden, but can be viewed with the understanding of the context of times and places in which they were made.

Keeping the work out there like this is an improvement on the tendency to show an untruthful censored version of the original material (as the BBC are increasingly doing).

I believe the only way to move forwards is to understand and learn from the past. I've never understood the tendency to want to hide something because it's unattractive or just plain ugly. Cultural nuggets that show how certain attitudes manifested are some of the most powerful tools available.

If that means adding a disclaimer, so be it. I'm still not sure what to make of this sentence though:

These stereotypes were wrong then and are wrong now.

I think I understand what they're trying to say but I find the language extremely patronising and prescriptive. Saying these things "were wrong then" isn't helpful at all. I'm not saying it's right that certain stereotypes were ever acceptable. But acceptable they were deemed to be at the time. So saying they "were wrong then" is yet more revisionism, which perpetuates the damaging illusion that things have always been as comfortable and enlightened as they are today.

Wouldn't it be more helpful to give the context, present the evidence and trust the audience to decide for themselves what is (or was) right or wrong.

 

[thomaswak]

Here my very little take on the subject. Once, in an other forum, about comic books, a member was fighting with me because I tried to make her understand that in the 60's, 70's, and 80's, an unwanted kiss was not considered like an abuse.

She was very upset, because she thinks - and it's her right - that an unsolicited kiss is as bad and offensive as sexual rape, even in fiction. She was really upset because X-Men's Wolverine gave Jean Grey a kiss on the mouth without warning her, in a comic book published in the 80's. She kept calling Wolverine a rapist. Anyway...

I tried really hard to make her understand that everything has a context, the context of its time. 40 years ago, an unsolicited kiss wasn't socially seen like an abuse. Many, many movies, books, TV series, comics had the hero kiss the heroine without asking. And at the time it was not a big deal or a problem. She refused to accept that and kept on saying, that whatever the time was, it was an abuse...

So what do we do now? And what do we do next? Do we erase all literature, movies, that featured an unsolicited kiss ? Do we have to put a disclaimer warning us about an unsolicited kiss to Luke from Leia in Star Wars? (Yes, in this now Disney movie, Leia kissed Luke without consent)...

Of course, many things can be offensive. As an asian French guy, do you know that asians in French movie were just jokes for decades? Oh sure, it's not really mean. But it can be hurtful to reduce asian people to the same stereotype, always. So of course, racism and abuse is not the way to go. Never. But I hope we will never fall in a total "cancel culture" that will deny the past (and its mistakes)...

Edit : an other exemple is the TV show Friends. We can like it, or not. It's up to personal taste.
As a gay guy myself, I never ever felt offended by the Friends gay jokes. Sometimes it was stupid, but I never felt them as homophobic... But now Millenials think that the show is problematic and homophobic and they feel offended by it... What do we do? Erase Friends from existence? Put a warning sign?

Millenials watching Friends on Netflix are shocked at how problematic it is

The show’s plot lines have offended a new generation of viewers

www.independent.co.uk

escriptive. Saying these things "were wrong then" isn't helpful at all. I'm not saying it's right that certain stereotypes were ever acceptable. But acceptable they were deemed to be at the time. So saying they "were wrong then" is yet more revisionism, which perpetuates the damaging illusion that things have always been as comfortable and enlightened as they are today.

Wouldn't it be more helpful to give the context, present the evidence and trust the audience to decide for themselves what is (or was) right or wrong.

That's my feeling too. Same story : that member, on this other forum, refuses to accept that 40 years ago, an unsolicited kiss between 2 adults wasn't seen as an abuse, socially. Especially when you take the context : It was unsolicited kiss between people attracted to each others. Wolverine kissed Jean without asking for her autorisation? Sure, but Jean was attracted to him. They both were. Do we have to put a warning on the new print of this book, saying "unsolicited kiss is wrong now and was wrong then"?

 

[Angela Channing]

There was an episode of The Muppet Show in which Chris Langham was the guest star. He was later convicted of having images and videos of child rape and sex abuse. Is it ok to still show that episode to children or do people only get angry at censorship and warnings when it stops them from ridiculing minority groups?

 

[thomaswak]

There was an episode of The Muppet Show in which Chris Langham was the guest star. He was later convicted of having images and videos of child rape and sex abuse. Is it ok to still show that episode to children or do people only get angry at censorship and warnings when it stops them from ridiculing minority groups?

That's an interesting question.
Mark Salling was convicted for the same reasons (yet, he never abused a child himself, as far as we know) and he committed suicide. Do we have to cancel/erase Glee?

Kevin Spacey is accused of sexual abuse. Do I throw away my Usual Suspect and American Beauty dvd?

Same for Bill Cosby. What he did to those women can't be forgiven and forgotten. But erasing all the Cosby Show from existence, denying the laughs, the joy it brought to people is a bit extreme. People know, they have the choice to watch, or not.

If tomorrow we learn that John Forsythe, Robert Foxworth or Larry Hagman abused some women in the past, do we have to delete Dynasty, Falcon Crest and Dallas ?

 

[DallasFanForever]

Anyone that was convicted of child rape or sex abuse I would have a problem watching those episodes. I gotta say it would definitely bother me. And if I had kids I wouldn’t want them watching those episodes either. I’m not saying take those episodes with these people off the air for good but if those networks decided never to show them again would I understand? I certainly would. Ultimately everyone is going to make their own choice. Not much really offends me but at the same time I try to consider others feelings and I don’t think anyone should have to feel offended by anything. I don’t like that at times we seem to be erasing history now either but I certainly do get it.

 

[thomaswak]

I'm gonna tell something I don't share much. I was a victim of child abuse. It took me 8 years of therapy to get over suicidal tendencies, and from self destruction. I started the therapy at 17 yo. And my third therapist (a woman) was the one able to make me understand that I wasn't guilty, responsible, and that I deserve to have a life as "normal" as I could get. Thank God, now I live, and I am mostly happy with my life, knowing I will never be like someone who never faced that trauma. I know it also broke my own sexuality at the time, as I was attracted to older men than me for years. It was not sane. But now I can date people of my age or a little younger (but not much. Twenty something feels already way too young for me.) I watched Glee, liked the show, I liked Mark Salling, without knowing he was sexually attracted to kids. I liked his Puck character. So what do I do now? I cancel and deny everything? I am strong enough to separate the show from the man. I would not want anyone to cancel Glee from its existence because of Mark Salling's demons. I would prefer people to chose to watch it or not. The problem now, with many millennials, is that they live in that "cancel culture" and want to annihilate anything that offends them. The art is not the artist. And the artist is not the man. People should keep the freedom to chose to watch or not.

 

[Angela Channing]

That's an interesting question.
Mark Salling was convicted for the same reasons (yet, he never abused a child himself, as far as we know) and he committed suicide. Do we have to cancel/erase Glee?

Kevin Spacey is accused of sexual abuse. Do I throw away my Usual Suspect and American Beauty dvd?

Same for Bill Cosby. What he did to those women can't be forgiven and forgotten. But erasing all the Cosby Show from existence, denying the laughs, the joy it brought to people is a bit extreme. People know, they have the choice to watch, or not.

If tomorrow we learn that John Forsythe, Robert Foxworth or Larry Hagman abused some women in the past, do we have to delete Dynasty, Falcon Crest and Dallas ?

Personally, I don't think shows and films should be erased. I still would enjoy watching Kevin Spacey films and I would have no problem with watching Gone With The Wind because it is a very good film. However, I think it's absolutely right that film studios should let it be known that they no longer support some of the views expressed in past productions so viewers are not left in any doubt that these portrayals are no longer acceptable in modern society. Disclaimers before screenings are a good approach.

I don't know if Disney plan to screen the Chris Langham episode of The Muppet Show but if they don't I think the argument against screening a disclaimer before the episodes containing scenes mocking minorities would be severely weakened.

 

[Angela Channing]

I'm gonna tell something I don't share much. I was a victim of child abuse. It took me 8 years of therapy to get over suicidal tendencies, and from self destruction. I started the therapy at 17 yo. And my third therapist (a woman) was the one able to make me understand that I wasn't guilty, responsible, and that I deserve to have a life as "normal" as I could get. Thank God, now I live, and I am mostly happy with my life, knowing I will never be like someone who never faced that trauma. I know it also broke my own sexuality at the time, as I was attracted to older men than me for years. It was not sane. But now I can date people of my age or a little younger (but not much. Twenty something feels already way too young for me.) I watched Glee, liked the show, I liked Mark Salling, without knowing he was sexually attracted to kids. I liked his Puck character. So what do I do now? I cancel and deny everything? I am strong enough to separate the show from the man. I would not want anyone to cancel Glee from its existence because of Mark Salling's demons. I would prefer people to chose to watch it or not. The problem now, with many millennials, is that they live in that "cancel culture" and want to annihilate anything that offends them. The art is not the artist. And the artist is not the man. People should keep the freedom to chose to watch or not.

I'm sorry to hear you had that experience when you were a child. I agree people should still be able to enjoy Glee but the production company and the broadcaster won't want to give the impression that they don't care about, or even worse that they condone, the crimes of Mark Salling. That's why a disclaimer before the show is a good approach as it allows these shows to continue to be watched.

 

[thomaswak]

I understand what you say and feel, and the subject is so complex @Angela Channing
About The Muppet Show episode, It will certainly make some parents really uncomfortable. No doubt. And I suppose most parents will refuse theirs kids to watch it. But what about the kids? They won't know so they won't care. They just want to see Kermit and Peggy, and laugh. Will they be hurt to watch this episode? Is the episode and the guest are actually offensive in this episode? Were Kids (who watched this episode in its original run) hurt or traumatized?

Same for Michael Jackson's music. I personally don't think he was a pedophile (but I can be 100% wrong and my point of view is irrelevant here). But if he was proven to be, would his music suddenly become offensive and literally destructive and dangerous?

 

[Toni]

Yes. That's about my take on it. I'd far prefer material that's considered offensive in some way isn't hidden, but can be viewed with the understanding of the context of times and places in which they were made.

Keeping the work out there like this is an improvement on the tendency to show an untruthful censored version of the original material (as the BBC are increasingly doing).

I believe the only way to move forwards is to understand and learn from the past. I've never understood the tendency to want to hide something because it's unattractive or just plain ugly. Cultural nuggets that show how certain attitudes manifested are some of the most powerful tools available.

If that means adding a disclaimer, so be it. I'm still not sure what to make of this sentence though:



I think I understand what they're trying to say but I find the language extremely patronising and prescriptive. Saying these things "were wrong then" isn't helpful at all. I'm not saying it's right that certain stereotypes were ever acceptable. But acceptable they were deemed to be at the time. So saying they "were wrong then" is yet more revisionism, which perpetuates the damaging illusion that things have always been as comfortable and enlightened as they are today.

Wouldn't it be more helpful to give the context, present the evidence and trust the audience to decide for themselves what is (or was) right or wrong.

I agree with you. I understand the sentence as "These stereotypes were wrong (and we were racist and stupid) then and are wrong (we are only stupid) now."

 

[thomaswak]

I'm sorry to hear you had that experience when you were a child. I agree people should still be able to enjoy Glee but the production company and the broadcaster won't want to give the impression that they don't care about, or even worse that they condone, the crimes of Mark Salling. That's why a disclaimer before the show is a good approach as it allows these shows to continue to be watched.

Thanks for your kind words. Hopefully the worst is behind me now. But it took so long, and I know that I am still unbalanced sometimes, on some subjects...
Some people will never truly understand the damages done to kids. It's worst they can imagine.

I agree, disclaimer is better than cancelation.

 

[DallasFanForever]

I actually like the disclaimer idea better than the cancellation myself. But I would definitely understand a cancellation depending on the situation, and if enough people demanded it. Let’s face it, it’s a tough topic and I don’t think there’s a wrong answer either way.

 

[Rove]

Good to see a calm and rational conversation happening above regardless of your personal beliefs on this matter.​

 

[thomaswak]

Good to see a calm and rational conversation happening above regardless of your personal beliefs on this matter.​

Yes, it's really nice. I think compassion can help us to at least respect the other's point of view, even if they don't align to ours. But in that case, as @DallasFanForever implied, the subject is way too complex to have a 100% solution, or a 100% wrong answer. Listening to each others without being judgmental, with a open mind, can help to make the debate grow, with respect.

 

[DallasFanForever]

That’s why I like it here. This place is full of open minded people. We need that in this world now more than ever. Whether I agree with someone or not I listen to what they have to say and I try to look at the situation from their point of view. Having intelligent conversations without anyone getting offended is very possible when people try, even today.

 

[darkshadows38]

Animaniacs is one of the greatest cartoons ever made and that had stuff that was made both for adults and kids and i would not be surprised if Disney put a disclaimer on that. it's funny how people forget how dark some of their films actually are and if i recall Fantasia (1940) also has something racist in it i think? i forget what is is though.
some of their films such as snow white are based off really dark fairy tales by the brothers grimm & i have a book of their stories i just have not read them just yet..

once upon a time actually is a bit more alike those stories but not as dark of course, it's funny how they pick and choose some things and not put anything on them and some they do by that they have in some offensive stuff especially when Walt was still alive and those are easily the best films too. not everything they've done has offensive stuff of course but it's like it's okay for this film but not for that. i just find it funny as hell how they refuse to release Song of the south (1946) when their films around that time and into the 50's and beyond i believe has offensive stuff in them and those are on dvd/bluray or 4K!

i'm not saying everything they put out has it in them of course not but you'd be surprised i think Alice in wonderland (1951) was one of them as well. yet those films have no such disclaimer

 

[darkshadows38]

re-reading some of these posts let me add that really a kiss from the 80's? i wonder if that same member found it offensive that a lot of the movies from the 30's also had the lead steal a kiss without asking or even outside of comic books and how is that considered rape? sure in real life it's wrong to do but if it's fiction just as long as you know to teach your kids it's wrong so when they get older they know that.

i can watch plenty of stuff with people who are scum, Wallace Beery who is a favorite actor of mine the man himself is scum i mean i dunno how true this is but from what i read i forget which actress he was married to at one time but he gave her something to cause an abortion and the studios no doubt back than hid that. i dunno how true that is though or if it's true at all to be fair. i'm a fan of Bill Cosby's work now do i think the guy was wrong on the crap he pulled you beat your ass i do and it does piss me off too but i love his films and albums and tv shows. Kevin Spacey will always be one of my favorite actors of all time even if the man turned out not to be scum.

i'm not gonna refuse to watch his work even if the man didn't turn out to be who we thought he was. i see Michael Jackson was brought up honestly i think he did do it but i also think part of it was his father really screwed him up far more than he later realized perhaps? that said i still love his music and can listen to it in fact i listen to the jackson 5 more than his solo stuff.

thomaswak​

I am sorry that you had to go through that i am thrilled to learn you are working on your demons and have beaten quite a few of them, i always say that we all are screwed up in the head well i use the F word but you get the idea i'm sure. anyways yeah we are all screwed up in some form or another but it's just how we deal with it and i've got plenty of demons i've beat as we all have our own demons. i don't have kids but if i did i'd teach them right and wrong and i would show them some of my favorite movies even if it had an actor in it that did something messed up. i wouldn't refuse to show a kid something like one of Kevin Spacey's films and tell him Spacey did this and you can't watch it cause of it if they wanted to see it. i'd show it to them and i'd hope once they learn about how screwed up the man is that hey'd be able to separate the two. well that's my take it anyways i'd like to think there are some who agree with me and if there aren't that's okay too i am not claiming i know everything i don't it's just an opinion that's all

 

[Toni]

That’s why I like it here. This place is full of open minded people. We need that in this world now more than ever. Whether I agree with someone or not I listen to what they have to say and I try to look at the situation from their point of view. Having intelligent conversations without anyone getting offended is very possible when people try, even today.

​