Marvel Watching the Marvel Cinematic Universe from the beginning...

[Mel O'Drama]

For as much as the MCU has made the most of superhero fiction, it has always been surprisingly reticent about three tropes of the genre: secret identities, code names, and costumes.

Yes. And none have really bothered me too much.

Of the three, I am most forgiving on secret identities. The truth is, it's the least plausible trope of the genre.

A big part of the fun for me was the idea of transformation. There's a kind of psychology to it, with the suggestion that the ordinary can be so much more and not to judge what's on the surface.

So much mileage was gained from it over the years - with the hero having to find different ways to protect their identity, and cliffhangers coming from someone discovering - or about to discover - it.

I'm sure you're right that it's more difficult to pull off now. As well as today's technologies there's also the matter of young audiences being more worldly/cynical/jaded. I can't help feel slightly sad about that.

I'm much less forgiving about costumes. It's maddening because sometimes the MCU costumes are so spot on, and other times they don't even try.

Hawkeye's the one that springs immediately to mind for me. I can understand it would be tricky to make that headpiece look good, but it's no less outrageous than Spider-Man's costume if one stops to think about it.

I'd say comic book artists have got better at considering what would be feasible in the real world (and, indeed, on film) when creating new costumes. Carol Danvers new costume when she was "promoted" to Captain Marvel is probably a good example of this (though the filmmakers still did a bit of tweaking when it came to it).

Not related, but I'll add one general gripe about the MCU films: the musical scores just aren't memorable.

Agreed. I've enjoyed many of them, but the music lacks iconography.

On that note, I watched Doctor Strange last night and it's one of the few where the score has grabbed me. I enjoyed that it sounded genuinely vintage at times and retro fun at others. I still didn't pick out a particular theme for the character though.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Doctor Strange (2016)

Strange is yet another character who was a recurring constant presence in my comics-reading days but to whom I never particularly connected. I found both the character and his powers to be inaccessible and difficult to relate to. Apart from some of his appearances in The Avengers or other guest-appearances, the closest I came to reading him on a regular basis was buying the Strange Tales title in the late-Eighties, but even here I bought that comic for the Cloak & Dagger strip and tended to either skim over his half or skip it altogether.

I didn’t actually know his origin (indeed, I wasn’t sure whether he even had one, or he was just this mystical presence that materialised) which was almost certainly an asset in approaching the film (especially with the inevitable changes made to race and gender of supporting characters). I found the background interesting enough.

There’s lots about the film I enjoyed far more than expected:

As mentioned a post or two ago, Michael Giacchino’s score is great and balanced the traditional with the contemporary really well. I also liked that he incorporated traditional Eastern sounds in at times.

The mysticism felt rooted in relatable philosophies with the concepts of energies being accessed and used, and the concept of things just beyond our understanding, and I really enjoyed Strange’s journey of self-discovery as his mind opened to look past the science to the possible. There was even time for a few existential questions to be pondered, which added a little substance.

Less enjoyable for me - though not entirely unexpected given the subject matter - were the effects. With reality warping inherent to the story and character, this was always going to be an effects extravaganza and it really does feel as though the effects crew threw pretty much everything at this film.

This is where it lost me. Intellectually I can rationalise that this is exactly what warped or alternative realities may look like. But the bottom line is that I thought they looked really cheap and silly. The same goes for Dormammu. It felt a bit like watching an old film that’s used animation to enhance the live-action story. It has its own kind of vintage charm, but it hasn’t dated well. This one looks dated to begin with, so I wonder how it will look to people in fifty years’ time.

On the plus side, I really did love the animation for the Cloak Of Levitation. It almost felt like its own character - like the Magic Carpet in Aladdin.

I’d always imagined Strange speaking with a mid-Atlantic accent (think of a toned down version of Sideshow Bob). British Benedict Cumberbatch would seem the ideal person to tap into this kind of upmarket sound. The accent he used, while convincingly American to my ears, didn’t fit the character for me. I didn't envisage him so smart-mouthed, either. The vocal fry surprised me (unpleasantly), but according to some sources it seems he’s known for it. I learn something new every day.

In many ways, this film surpassed my expectations. It was certainly enjoyable enough. The abundance of obvious CGI, though, is never going to endear me.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Here’s how the good Doctor ranks:

1. Captain America: Civil War
2. Captain America: The Winter Soldier
3. Captain America: The First Avenger
4. Iron Man
5. The Incredible Hulk
6. Thor
7. Ant Man
8. The Avengers
9. Doctor Strange
10. Guardians Of The Galaxy
11. Avengers: Age Of Ultron
12. Thor: The Dark World
13. Iron Man 2
14. Iron Man 3

 

[DallasFanForever]

1. Captain America: Civil War
2. Captain America: The Winter Soldier
3. Captain America: The First Avenger

I have to agree with your top three, as I feel the Captain America movies were the best Marvel films. But I am interested to see if anything will knock them off the top of your list.

 

[Crimson]

In many ways, this film surpassed my expectations. It was certainly enjoyable enough. The abundance of obvious CGI, though, is never going to endear me.

Your reaction is about as I expected; if anything I'm glad you enjoyed it as much as you did. This one was inevitably going to be a CGI extravaganza. I saw this one in IMAX 3D and I don't recall the FX being cheap looking; I was fairly blown away by the experience. Convincing is another matter. My brain rejects bad CGI done on mundane subjects. An unconvincing CGI rhino? Yeah, that's going to irk me. Since my brain has no idea what a Dark Dimension inhabited by a malevolent cosmic being would look like, it's easier for me to ride it out. Plus, Strange's most famous artist was Ditko, noted for a garish phantasmagoria.



For myself, I consider the film kind of mid-tier. My objection to is that all of the origin films have a beat-for-beat sameness to them, no matter how much the set decorations may change. Like GoTGv1, I give this one bonus points for a conclusion that's more inventive than beating the snot out of the villain.

British Benedict Cumberbatch would seem the ideal person to tap into this kind of upmarket sound. The accent he used, while convincingly American to my ears, didn’t fit the character for me. I didn't envisage him so smart-mouthed, either.

My image of Dr. Strange has always been Vincent Price circa the late 60s; and there's some evidence that's exactly who the character was based on.

There were a lot of changes made to Dr. Strange and I suspect all for the same reason. An arrogant surgeon and Master of the Mystic Arts could easily come across as snooty and even authoritarian -- not exactly crowd pleasing characteristics. I think the character was brought down to Earth, so to speak, to make him more accessible. This is notable in his accent (humdrum American) and his personality (sly, rebellious and even sneaky). Even the gestures used for magic look like operating machinery, rather than the graceful, elegant gestures I would have expected; almost certainly intentional to prevent the character from seeming effete.

he accent he used, while convincingly American to my ears, didn’t fit the character for me. I didn't envisage him so smart-mouthed, either. The vocal fry surprised me (unpleasantly), but according to some sources it seems he’s known for it.

I suppose I am neither particularly attuned or irked by voices or speaking quirks. If people talk with a vocal fry in real life, I would expect to hear it on screen too. The days of actors using generic, fake accents kind of died out in the 50s. Plus, I think off-kilter vocal tics add character flair. Over in the other universe, Gal Gadot plays Wonder Woman with a raspy throatiness that has nothing to do with the character but, which I find adds a great deal of personality.

1. Captain America: The Winter Soldier
2. Guardians of the Galaxy vol 1
3. Captain America: Civil War
4. The Avengers
5. Iron Man
6. Captain America: The First Avenger
7. Doctor Strange
8. Avengers: Age of Ultron
9. Thor
10. The Incredible Hulk
11. Ant-Man
12. Iron Man 3
13. Iron Man 2
14. Thor: The Dark World

 

[Mel O'Drama]

I am interested to see if anything will knock them off the top of your list.

Me too.

Looking at the pattern that's developed since Iron Man it seems every fourth film has shot into the top spot. Will Thor: Ragnarok and Captain Marvel continue the trend?

Since my brain has no idea what a Dark Dimension inhabited by a malevolent cosmic being would look like, it's easier for me to ride it out.

This actually helped me enjoy it as much as I did. I could accept that whatever was happening was something that was outside my realm of experience and understanding so it wasn't something I could outright dismiss. In a way, the writing - with Stephen's mind opening to reveal what he couldn't see before - covered that. Anything that doesn't look right is simply something I couldn't comprehend.

I suppose I like my CGI more low key, and to work in harmony with the live action. There were parts of this film where there was very little live-action happening, and almost everything onscreen was computer generated. To me those moments felt like a high tech ride experience.

It may not be my thing, but I can appreciate the spectacle, and I'm sure it was even more breathtaking on an IMAX screen.

My objection to is that all of the origin films have a beat-for-beat sameness to them, no matter how much the set decorations may change.

Very true. I think Benedict's performance helped with some aspects. His reaction on seeing his smashed and pinned fingers gave it a real sense of horror.

Like GoTGv1, I give this one bonus points for a conclusion that's more inventive than beating the snot out of the villain.

I did enjoy that little Groundhog Day thing he had going on with Dormammu.

My image of Dr. Strange has always been Vincent Price circa the late 60s; and there's some evidence that's exactly who the character was based on.

Oh yes - I can completely see that now you mention it.

There were a lot of changes made to Dr. Strange and I suspect all for the same reason. An arrogant surgeon and Master of the Mystic Arts could easily come across as snooty and even authoritarian -- not exactly crowd pleasing characteristics. I think the character was brought down to Earth, so to speak, to make him more accessible.

This all makes sense. I have always thought of him as a lofty highbrow Reed Richards/Charles Xavier type, but as mentioned I also found the character quite inaccessible when I was young.

If people talk with a vocal fry in real life, I would expect to hear it on screen too. The days of actors using generic, fake accents kind of died out in the 50s.

I'm a little intrigued by Benedict's. I haven't noticed too much fry in any other projects in which I've seen him, and having looked at some interviews I don't hear it in most. In this one there's practically none (though he's also speaking in a higher register):

I'd assumed when watching it was a choice, perhaps suggested by a dialect coach or because he'd picked up on it when listening to certain American accents. But then I stumbled upon this, where he sounds very much as he did in Doctor Strange... but with a British accent:

So yes, perhaps it's simply an extension of his natural speaking voice.

Over in the other universe, Gal Gadot plays Wonder Woman with a raspy throatiness that has nothing to do with the character but, which I find adds a great deal of personality.

That worked for me as well.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Guardians Of The Galaxy Vol. 2 (2017)

​

I went into this one feeling I was watching it purely for completion. However, I decided to treat the whole thing as a giant visually impressive music video with some gags linking the songs.

With expectations so lowered it was actually not only tolerable: I found myself enjoying the film. Quite a bit. I laughed a lot and (as with the first film) thought it looked good. It helped that I knew the characters this time round. Even new face Mantis is familiar to me as an Avengers member in the comics, so that helped. Oh - and I was great to see the Watcher make an appearance, looking like a perfect live-action rendition of the visual established in the comics.

As things went along, I actually enjoyed this more than the first and seemed as though it was going to be a film I’d rank fairly highly. However, the space chase in the final act seemed to go on forever and I found myself tuning out and mentally planning my next grocery shop while twitching my leg. This hugely impacted on how I viewed the film overall.

Things were sweetened by the ending, which I found quite touching.

That prolonged space battle bumps it down a couple of places, but it’s not a bad outcome:

1. Captain America: Civil War
2. Captain America: The Winter Soldier
3. Captain America: The First Avenger
4. Iron Man
5. The Incredible Hulk
6. Thor
7. Ant Man
8. The Avengers
9. Doctor Strange
10. Guardians Of The Galaxy Vol. 2
11. Guardians Of The Galaxy
12. Avengers: Age Of Ultron
13. Thor: The Dark World
14. Iron Man 2
15. Iron Man 3

 

[Crimson]

Guardians Of The Galaxy Vol 2. (2017)

This is one of the bigger disappointments of the MCU for me. I don't think it's a bad film -- lower mid-tier in my ranking -- but I consider it a poor follow up to the original. I've seen the film a few times, and yet I have less distinct memories of this one than any other MCU movie; it's just an overstuffed blur to me.

1. Captain America: The Winter Soldier
2. Guardians of the Galaxy vol 1
3. Captain America: Civil War
4. The Avengers
5. Iron Man
6. Captain America: The First Avenger
7. Doctor Strange
8. Avengers: Age of Ultron
9. Thor
10. The Incredible Hulk
11. Ant-Man
12. Guardians of the Galaxy vol 2
13. Iron Man 3
14. Iron Man 2
15. Thor: The Dark World

 

[Mel O'Drama]

This is one of the bigger disappointments of the MCU for me. I don't think it's a bad film -- lower mid-tier in my ranking -- but I consider it a poor follow up to the original.

Considering how well the first film ranked for you I'd imagine that makes it all the more disappointing (similar to the Iron Man sequels). We were probably approaching it from opposite directions in that regard.

 

[Crimson]

The biggest surprise for me is that I found the movie forgettable. I don't even have any particular complaints about it, it just left no impression on me. But I will add two thoughts, at least.

Marvel has really perfected the CGI de-aging, to a truly impressive degree. The technology isn't always this impressive, not even in other Disney films; in the last PIRATES movie, the attempt at de-aging Johnny Depp looked like a Snapchat filter.

The character of Drax the Destroyer is a rare instance of the MCU losing the thread of a character. Drax, in the original film, was an intimidating brute; the humor with the character came from him taking language literally. And then James Gunn turned him into a loveable idiot.

 

[Ome]

If you're wondering at the speed I am rating your posts; I follow this thread on my phone when not logged in.

Having watched all these movies, I love the feel of reliving each of them as I read all of your comments while Mel continues his journey.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Marvel has really perfected the CGI de-aging, to a truly impressive degree.

Yes - that was indeed impressive.

The technology isn't always this impressive, not even in other Disney films; in the last PIRATES movie, the attempt at de-aging Johnny Depp looked like a Snapchat filter.

If I re-watch the first X-Men trilogy I'd be curious to see how the de-ageing scenes in The Last Stand hold up. I don't think I'd seen this kind of thing done before then and I was very impressed with those scenes at the time*.

*It's just a shame the rest of the film is so terrible (if memory serves).

The character of Drax the Destroyer is a rare instance of the MCU losing the thread of a character. Drax, in the original film, was an intimidating brute; the humor with the character came from him taking language literally. And then James Gunn turned him into a loveable idiot.

This didn't bother me (nor even consciously register with me) as I'd only watched the first film once and didn't know the character that well, but that's a good point.

The other MCU character who springs to mind for me as being characterised quite differently is Bruce Banner, but that's different as it was not only a recast but seemed to be a conscious decision.

And on that note, it's occurred to me that my enjoyment of Civil War was possibly increased by Bruce/Hulk's absence. I wonder how I'll feel about him in hands other than Whedon's.

If you're wondering at the speed I am rating your posts; I follow this thread on my phone when not logged in.

Oh, rate away. It makes me feel loved.

Having watched all these movies, I love the feel of reliving each of them as I read all of your comments while Mel continues his journey.

I'm very curious how my journey compares with yours. I think we're watching at similar rates though in a different order. We'll have to compare rankings once I've watched them all.

 

[Ome]

We'll have to compare rankings once I've watched them all.

I need to list all the films in my favourite order. As I remember, I only listed my top ten. I would be curious to know everyone's favourite order of characters too.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

I would be curious to know everyone's favourite order of characters too.

That sounds fun. I've been so focussed on the film as a whole I haven't even thought about ranking the characters. I'll give that one some thought. Like you, I'd enjoy seeing others' favourites as well.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Spider-Man: Homecoming (2017)

​

A few little “this may affect my viewing experience” caveats to throw in with this one:

• I have watched this film before (and little more than a year ago)
• I’ve also seen this film’s first sequel and so I’m aware of some of the bigger picture
• Complicating things further, I’m familiar with Tobey Maguire’s portrayal and have seen the first Andrew Garfield film, so these will also provide something of a benchmark
• I was an avid Spider-Man reader for many years and feel more strongly connected to the character than most other MCU characters
• This was a matinee screening

Here’s what I had to say last time I watched:

A watchable enough film, but not really the kind of Spider-Man that speaks to me most. I can't get my head round the idea of him being an Avenger, and to have all this incredible technology to support him. I far prefer him poor, alone and a little miserable.

There was also a shedload of liberty-taking with the characters' lore. Half the supporting cast were of a different ethnicity to the comic version, and Liz Allan as The Vulture's daughter is just silly. But there were some nice little nods to touches from the comics as well, so it almost balanced out.

I think the Raimi/Maguire films captured the feel of Spider-Man's world better, with most of the supporting characters really well cast.

That said, I do think the Holland/Watts films have by far the best Spidey mask and overall the best costume (apart from the thick black go-faster stripes and the narrowing/widening eyes). Holland also looks closer to my ideal of Peter Parker visually (and Garfield even more so), but was played too young and the babbling teen enthusiasm bit was very wearing (it was possibly fun to watch for actual teenagers, if they could get past Holland clearly being much older than he was acting).

To an extent, I’ve made peace with many of my previous gripes with the film (hence the caveat. This arguably gives Homecoming an advantage most other films may not have until my second or third time round with them).

In MCU terms, some of the advanced weaponry is more understandable as a result of scavenging Chitauri arms following the Battle Of New York. It still doesn’t feel particularly Spider-Man, and it means obvious CGI fakery, but I could accept it.

Likewise, the Adrian Toomes of the comics was an engineer and bringing this into the twenty first century it also makes sense for the Vulture costume and flight mechanism - with the crossover technology reverse-engineered - to resemble a miniature fighter jet. I wasn’t thrilled with how different the costume was from the comic version, but it had a reality to it and one of my favourite of the film’s little nods to the comics was Adrian’s fur-collared bomber jacket which evoked the fur-collared costume of the comics. Having now watched all the MCU films leading to this one, the similarities between the Vulture’s mask and that of Star-Lord screamed at me.

The film’s big twist when Peter went to Liz’s home as her date for homecoming is great fun. This time round, knowing what was coming, I was able to appreciate the layers when I factored this into Liz’s earlier scenes. I do have two gripes with it: Firstly, the “family man” angle is far removed from the Vulture I know. Secondly, Peter finding out that the film’s big villain is the father of a classmate with whom he’s close was already brilliantly done in the first Raimi Spider-Man film (a twist that was more faithful to the source material). For a short time I did wonder why not just go the comics route of having Toomes connected to Peter by having May date Nate Lubensky (who would now be a hot young thing in line with MCU casting) but I suppose that would have meant too much time spent with the olds and it’s important to get to know the young supporting cast.

I did love the cat and mouse game that developed from the Peter/Liz/Adrian dynamic, particularly that chilling car ride where Toomes works it all out as Liz chatters away obliviously and Peter squirms in horror.

continued...​

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Spider-Man: Homecoming


continued​

The more diverse cast adds credibility for the film’s setting in place and time, but it’s still an adjustment for me. More bothersome is that many characterisations are so different. Screen Ned is great fun, but I don’t get why he’s called Ned Leeds as couldn’t be further away. Ned was never comic relief, nor do I ever recall him being close with Peter. He was serious, brooding and competitive. His “two geeks together” friendship with Peter feels more analogous with Harry Osborn. Since Harry had appeared in four of the five previous Spider-Man films I can understand why the MCU might want to explore some different characters, but this is one case where I wish Jacob Batalon’s character simply had a different name. And all things considered, I’m hoping the MCU don’t tackle the Hobgoblin story with this particular iteration of the Spider-Man universe.

Secret identities are out of the window once again. As well as Tony Stark knowing Spidey’s identity, there’s also Ned and May. The reveals with both latter characters are great. They’re funny and surprising and create little cliffhanger moments. It does have an impact on the character though. Something I’ve loved about Peter is his sense of isolation. Especially early on, comic Peter had the weight of the world on his shoulders, with nobody to share his troubles with and the constant worry about someone finding out. This iteration goes a different route, probably understandably. Away from the written thought clouds that expressed Peter’s feelings, he needs to be able to speak them aloud. For me it feels like too much, too soon, but at least there are still enough people out of the loop for the secret identity thing to still cause stress.

Where this film really delivers for me is in the “great responsibility” angle. Peter needing to leave the party at Liz’s house to investigate the strange lights - resulting in him becoming a laughing stock; Looking sadly at Liz in the pool, desperately wanting to take up her offer of hanging out with them but knowing he’s come to D.C. to track the bad guys; Running out on Liz at the homecoming dance to go after her father; Letting down his decathlon team as he’s locked in a warehouse. The conflict, tension and suspense are palpable and these small, human moments of angst are what Spider-Man is all about for me. More important than if he can save the world is if he can save face and gain a degree of credibility with his classmates. This is what makes the character so identifiable, and the film scores big on this level.

The crossovers with other MCU characters are even more enjoyable in context this time round. Busy as it was, I liked seeing a Pete’s-eye view of the Clash Of The Avengers at Leipzig-Halle Airport. Particularly watchable was the relationship between Tony and Peter, and I enjoyed the subtext of their interactions meeting a particular need in them, with Tony playing something of a father figure. I liked that it felt challenging and uncomfortable for each of them at times while still having a genuine warmth and care.

The action scenes can be determiners with my enjoyment of an MCU film, and I’m delighted to say that I found the action in Homecoming not only watchable but genuinely thrilling. On reflection, there was a lot more action than it seemed while watching, but because it was so carefully woven into the plot and it never lost sight of character I was invested the whole way. In terms of action being integral, this heads into Winter Soldier territory. And many had the requisite sense of fun that a Spider-Man film needs.

One thing this film really captured was the exhilarating head rush that comes with Spidey’s aerial acrobatics. During the Rescue At The Washington Monument I actually had to look away a couple of times when the camera looked downwards as I began to get a dizzying sense of vertigo. And this is watching on a TV screen.

Speaking of motion sickness, I still struggled with the opening footage shot by Peter Parker which felt as though it went on far too long. One of my lingering memories of my first watch was the poor first impression of Tom Holland’s Peter as being annoyingly hyper-talkative. This time round - possibly because I was braced for it - it didn’t feel quite so annoying.

Nevertheless, while Holland’s is no doubt the most realistic portrayal of a teenage Peter coming to terms his exciting new abilities, I don’t actually want to watch a realistic teenager for two solid hours (OK, it’s not realistic for a teenager to swing round New York on webs, but we’re talking Marvel Cinematic realism here).

Holland speaking in a higher register to sound younger gets really wearing. This register, combined with the rapidity of speech and the teen-speak is the most unpleasant aspect of the entire portrayal for me. This is a shame, because he really looks the part. It’s my hope that there’s either a time-jump or that the MCU will simply allow Peter to grow up. He’s fifteen in this film, which makes him probably around twenty in 2022, which fills me with hope. He really does have potential to become my favourite portrayal of the character, but we’re nowhere near there just yet.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Spidey swings into my rankings:

1. Captain America: Civil War
2. Captain America: The Winter Soldier
3. Captain America: The First Avenger
4. Iron Man
5. The Incredible Hulk
6. Thor
7. Spider-Man: Homecoming
8. Ant Man
9. The Avengers
10. Doctor Strange
11. Guardians Of The Galaxy Vol. 2
12. Guardians Of The Galaxy
13. Avengers: Age Of Ultron
14. Thor: The Dark World
15. Iron Man 2
16. Iron Man 3

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Thor: Ragnarok (2017)

​

Well, I was greatly looking forward to this one. I got the sense it was viewed by many as an improvement on the previous film(s) and I was also looking forward to seeing real-life versions of Hela. This made me both curious and a little excited to see how this film would play for me.

The great news is that I LOVED Hela. I loved that her look was pretty much straight from the comics. I loved that she danced the line between dark brutality and camp. I enjoyed that her arrival introduced a genuine threat to Asgard.

The little nods to MCU history and chronology were enjoyable, what with the footage of Natasha from Age Of Ultron and finding out what Bruce and Thor have been doing while absent from the universe. This film also introduced Doctor Strange to the wider MCU and felt significant on that level.

The not so great news is that I didn’t enjoy much else and I actively disliked a great deal of it.

Ironically, one of the reasons I disliked this film was a reason I enjoyed Spider-Man: Homecoming so much: the sense of fun. I really don’t care to see Thor quipping away while chained up and listening to a villain monologuing. I didn’t like that some of the laughs were at the main character’s expense (tee hee. Clumsy Thor is ruining Doctor Strange’s sanctum with his oafish, accident-prone ways). It felt more like watching a satire of Thor than an actual Thor film.

Most unforgivable of all, much of the film felt as though it was simply riffing on Guardians Of The Galaxy. Thor travelling between worlds and gathering a motley crew of companions of various CGI shapes, sizes and IQs made it feel simply a badge engineered GOTG, right down to the endless gags, quips, puns and aggressive wackiness.

Another irony: I cited the Jeff Goldblum style of delivery as a reason for not enjoying Justin Hammer. In this film, along comes… Jeff Goldblum. Dear God.

For me, dialogue and delivery are really important to a good story. I’ve revisited this again and again in these films - pedantically pointing out various small details such as vocal fry, the register of a voice, contemporary speech patterns and anachronisms - because these details can go a long way towards creating a believable world, but it can also throw things right off if it’s not right. They’re the skeleton of the films and at the back of my mind is whether or not this dialogue would convince on a stage with a minimal set and no effects, or in a novel.

In the first two Thor films, there were some tiny details that bothered me on Asgard, which could have mostly been resolved by not using contractions in speech. Overall, though, they did create an Asgard that a felt authentic and seemed to choose actors with care. This film simply threw it all out the window for the sake of increasing the fun. Asgard seems to have been overrun with contempory British accents, from the Cockney gatekeeper/executioner to the MCU’s version of Valkyrie (who is at least shown to be a Valkyrie rather than the Valkyrie I associate with the Marvel Universe.

It’s not just the delivery but the dialogue that’s gone to pot. Asgardians now pepper their speech with such words and terms as “Mischeeveeeous”, “OK”, “Let’s go look”, “Hi” and - most unforgivable of all for this setting - “Oh my God”. It almost feels as though the Asgardians have been hanging out in trendy L.A. coffee shops.

It hasn’t gone unnoticed that I’ve yet to fully enjoy a film which features Mark Ruffalo’s Bruce Banner/Hulk and so, while his presence isn’t the reason for me not enjoying this one, it wasn’t a particular help.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Here’s how Thor I am at sore (or something like that):

1. Captain America: Civil War
2. Captain America: The Winter Soldier
3. Captain America: The First Avenger
4. Iron Man
5. The Incredible Hulk
6. Thor
7. Spider-Man: Homecoming
8. Ant Man
9. The Avengers
10. Doctor Strange
11. Guardians Of The Galaxy Vol. 2
12. Guardians Of The Galaxy
13. Avengers: Age Of Ultron
14. Thor: The Dark World
15. Iron Man 2
16. Thor: Ragnarok
17. Iron Man 3

 

[Crimson]

I would be curious to know everyone's favourite order of characters too.

While I could easily rattle off my few top favorites, I've never given this much thought into a formal Top 10 of any sort. All inclusive of heroes, villains and supporting players? Nevertheless, I'll hold off on such a list until Mel is near the end, as some characters on my list haven't even been introduced into the MCU at this stage.

To an extent, I’ve made peace with many of my previous gripes with the film (hence the caveat. This arguably gives Homecoming an advantage most other films may not have until my second or third time round with them).

I'm not far removed from your position, except perhaps I made my peace much longer ago. Given my druthers, I'd have preferred to see Holland play a true friendly neighborhood Spider-Man, dealing with his own rogues gallery as relatively low-level threats. That said, I get the reasons for the changes. We had five previous solo Spider-Man films, so I get the reason for a different approach. Also, Disney presumably went through arduous negotiations with Sony to get Spider-Man into the MCU; it makes sense to want to make the most of that by incorporating him thoroughly into the shared universe.

I also appreciate that thought seemed to go into how this would logically change the character; there's inevitably a big difference between a high school kid who's a loner nerd and one who goes off on international and intergalactic adventures. (Consider DC Comics' schizo approach to Batman. He's a "brooding loner" -- except for his eleven sidekicks and six team affiliations.)

The not so great news is that I didn’t enjoy much else and I actively disliked a great deal of it.

Given how you felt about GOTG, I pretty much anticipated this. Myself, I love RAGNAROK; solidly in my Top 5. I think the movie has an energy and zest that make earlier films in the MCU (both THOR; TIH; even the first Cap film) seem pallid and serviceable. More importantly, it finally breathed life into Thor as a character. While I liked the character in comic books, his earlier appearances in the MCU felt empty; I had wrote it off as Chris Hemsworth lacking charisma. With RAGNAROK, personality has finally been added and I like those traits. His cheerful but faltering optimism. His desire to be noble and heroic, while not quite knowing how. Thor has finally become a bold hero and a likeable chap.

I didn’t like that some of the laughs were at the main character’s expense (tee hee. Clumsy Thor is ruining Doctor Strange’s sanctum with his oafish, accident-prone ways).

As much as I loved RAGNAROK and thought most of its humor worked, there are some cheap gags that should have been left on the cutting room floor. My own pet peeve in the movie is the ball: this guy can take a punch from the Hulk, but gets knocked over by a rubber ball?

In this film, along comes… Jeff Goldblum. Dear God.

I don't share your irritation at how actors speak -- in fact, I rather like Goldblum's bemused, droll delivery and appreciate that such grand characters aren't predictably played as being ponderously self-serious. That said, I wasn't thrilled about Goldblum in the movie for the same reason I didn't care for Stallone or even Glenn Close showing up in earlier films; they're too distractingly famous to disappear into their supporting roles.

It’s not just the delivery but the dialogue that’s gone to pot. Asgardians now pepper their speech with such words and terms as “Mischeeveeeous”, “OK”, “Let’s go look”, “Hi” and - most unforgivable of all for this setting - “Oh my God”. It almost feels as though the Asgardians have been hanging out in trendy L.A. coffee shops.

There was a time I would have agreed with this, but I had an epiphany some years ago that cleared up such concerns. Twentieth century Hollywood created this weird, collective notion that everyone in history -- and even mythology -- sounded like Lawrence Olivier performing Hamlet. If Asgardians existed, they would probably speak Old Norse or even an unintelligible alien language; neither of which would be crowd pleasers in a superhero film. Having them speak in formal, quasi-Old English is entirely as anachronistic as having them talk like California surfer bros. Either way, it's an arbitrary line in the sand in how fictitious beings "should" sound.


1 Captain America: The Winter Soldier
2 Guardians of the Galaxy vol 1
3 Captain America: Civil War
4 Thor: Ragnarok
5 The Avengers
6 Iron Man
7 Captain America: The First Avenger
8 Spider-Man: Homecoming
9 Doctor Strange
10 Avengers: Age of Ultron
11 Guardians of the Galaxy vol 2
12 Thor
13 The Incredible Hulk
14 Ant-Man
15 Iron Man 3
16 Iron Man 2
17 Thor: The Dark World