Dallas had our attention, but did it have our respect?

Kenny Coyote

Telly Talk Star
We've been over this ground before. If you want or need to nail things down in definitive black and white terms, then "popularity equals quality" will do it for you (although I guess to follow this equation to its logical end, you have to compare ratings of everything all over the world). But it's probably the least interesting way of looking at things. If it comes down to "This episode is definitively better than that episode because more people watched it", then that's kind of boring.

I didn't claim it's an exciting topic, but I do use objectively evaluable criteria. Otherwise it's nothing but mere opinion.

If you or anyone else wants to put forth some other more interesting objective criteria that they use to measure greatness I'd be glad to discuss it.
 
If you or anyone else wants to put forth some other more interesting objective criteria that they use to measure greatness I'd be glad to discuss it.

Why does it have to be objective? The thread started out discussing attitudes and the way something is received. That's an entirely subjective thing.

Dallas was a huge ratings success in the UK. But there were still certain cultural differences that affected how it was received here, and perhaps informed peoples motives for watching. Is that not interesting enough for you to discuss?

The reasons behind someone watching something are far more interesting to me than the statistics, which tend to be a bit dry and don't actually address the original question of how attitudes have changed over time.
 

James from London

International Treasure
If you or anyone else wants to put forth some other more interesting objective criteria that they use to measure greatness I'd be glad to discuss it.

Hmm, I'm not sure I'm really interested in objectivity in relation to Dallas. I mean, yeah, it was massive in the ratings in America thirty-forty years ago, we all know that. But it's not thirty-forty years ago and I'm not in America so I don't feel like that has much impact on what I think or feel about Dallas in the present.

Subjectivity, interpretation, perception - all that waffly vague stuff is more up my alley.

Dallas was a huge ratings success in the UK. But there were still certain cultural differences that affected how it was received here, and perhaps informed peoples motives for watching. Is that not interesting enough for you to discuss?

Yes, that's what prompted me to post the article in the first place. As I say, the ratings we all know about.

In fairness, the thread title might have been a bit misleading. I should have put quotation marks round it.
 
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James from London

International Treasure
Although it's an interesting angle for a critic, kinda like trying to decide whether or not a song deserves to be the #1

Oh yes, that would be fascinating -- for someone to go back and critique the No.1 TV show for every week in history, as they do for the No.1 singles on Popular and Pitchfork!
 
Although it's an interesting angle for a critic, kinda like trying to decide whether or not a song deserves to be the #1
Oh yes, that would be fascinating -- for someone to go back and critique the No.1 TV show for every week in history, as they do for the No.1 singles on Popular and Pitchfork!

Or your next time round with Dallas could be from highest rated episode to lowest. Or vice versa.
 

James from London

International Treasure

Kenny Coyote

Telly Talk Star
Why does it have to be objective? The thread started out discussing attitudes and the way something is received. That's an entirely subjective thing.

The thread started out with a post including the following quote:

Dallas had our attention, but did it have our respect? In his 2013 book, Armchair Nation: An Intimate History of Britain in Front of the TV, Professor Joe Moran details the extent to which British appreciation of the show was couched in mockery. Terry Wogan would often begin his Radio 2 morning show with a devilish takedown of the previous night’s episode, and the soap was also a favourite subject of the legendarily wry Observer TV critic Clive James. “It was never embraced as quality television because, frankly, it wasn’t,” says Moran now. As such, Dallas’s influence on the shows that came after was limited: “Part of its appeal was that it was very American and very different, so there would have been no point trying to replicate it. The appeal of Dallas was that it took itself seriously. Television drama has generally got higher quality since the 1980s.”


I'm fine with discussing opinions and yes, it is more interesting, but the thread started out with a post including that idea that it's possible to definitively state "it is high quality" or "it isn't high quality." My posts in this thread have been a response to that idea that it's possible to definitively state: “It was never embraced as quality television because, frankly, it wasn’t."

That quote doesn't make it sound like it's an objective thing, does it?

If someone is going to flat out state "it wasn't" then he'd damn well better be able to back up his statement with criteria which is both objectively measurable and that we all agree on.

I've been showing why even if you can establish objective criteria, you're never gonna get everybody to agree that it's valid or even relevant.


In other words, I've been saying: "Observer TV critic Clive James is full of s**t and here's why."

BTW, some people already know this but for those who don't it might be interesting: The rating one particular episode got back in the 80s was not a reflection of how good people thought that episode was. It was a reflection of how much they liked the previous episodes and of their expectations for how much they would like that episode.

The episode that had a 90 million plus audience could have been a huge letdown and it still would have been watched by those people. The rating it got was a reflection of how much people liked that whole storyline and how much they wanted to see the payoff to it.

These days when we have ratings that include a 3 day period or even 7 day period, people can tell their friends how great a particular episode was and help it get a big audience over that time period.
 
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James from London

International Treasure
"Observer TV critic Clive James is full of s**t and here's why."

I think you mean Professor Joe Moran, but I take your point.

Clive James used to be very funny about Dallas. I think he was quite fond of it. I remember seeing a copy of the Observer Magazine in art class at school (for some reason, there was always a big stash of Sunday supplements in our art classes) with Linda Gray on the cover and a big article/interview James had done with the cast where he described that wobbly thing Sue Ellen does with her mouth (which I'd never noticed before) and how the Ewings seemed to assemble for a meal every twelve minutes. It just as the Dallas phenomenon was taking off and was probably one of the first big features about it in the UK (that wasn't about Victoria Principal's love life). I'd love to read it again to see how it holds up, but I've looked on the net, but no luck.

Clive James's fascination with the '80s soaps lasted throughout the decade. I remember him on TV discussing Season 8 of Dynasty with Germaine Greer of all people.

Just googled Clive James and Dallas together and came up with a few interesting things:

"From his books and beyond, it was clear that he was an ardent fan of Dallas (1978-91) writing on everything from the JR Ewing’s shooting to his vivid descriptions of JR’s screen wife Sue Ellen. He admitted to recording it twice and diagnosing himself as having Dallasosis which he defined as a “condition brought about by excess Dallas”.

https://weegiemidget.wordpress.com/remembrances/remembrances-2019/clive-james/

"Clive James, the Observer's TV critic at the time, called it: "Every American soap opera you have ever seen rolled into one and given an unlimited charge account at Neiman Marcus." The average Brit had never seen any other US soap opera, didn't know what a charge account was, and drew a total blank on Neiman Marcus, too, but that was all part of the fun."


https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2012/sep/04/dallas-return-stetsons-dawn

He first came to general notice writing pithy and frequently hilarious TV criticism for the Observer newspaper in London some thirty or so years ago. His ability to take ephemeral material and turn it into something guaranteed to make one both think and yet laugh out loud was unmatched – I well remember how in one glorious series of articles he would take the mangled southern US drawl of the characters of “Dallas” and turn his column into something approaching comic genius by spelling their dialogue out phonetically.

Thus, you will see, Sue-Ellen Ewing wasn’t an alcoholic, she had someone with what was hilariously described as a “drinkin’ prarlm”.

https://wellthisiswhatithink.com/2013/09/04/a-true-genius-dont-go-just-yet-clive-james/

Any critic who describes "Dallas" as "every American soap opera you have ever seen all rolled into one and given an unlimited charge account at Neiman-Marcus" can't be all bad. By American standards, however, he might be considered by some as just a bit naughty. John Simon-like naughtiness, but less cutting and with more wit. Especially when he goes on to describe J. R. Ewing as wearing "an Astroturf haircut and a hatband composed of what appear to be crushed budgerigars [budgie birds]."

https://www.csmonitor.com/1981/0327/032700.html

It seemed like pretty much everyone in the UK watched Dallas, from the highbrow to the lowbrow. Terry Wogan would recap events sarcastically on his morning Radio 2 show, coining such epithets as “the poison dwarf” (for the diminutive Lucy Ewing), while Clive James regularly chimed in from his cerebral Observer column to guiltily admit that he couldn’t live without his weekly fix of Ewing action.

But such popularity rarely lasts, and Dallas was finally wound up in 1991. Its final episode was a surfeit of surreal plot excess, as an ‘angel’ turned up to show JR how the Ewings might have lived if he’d never been born. In a devilish inversion of It’s a Wonderful Life, they were of course a lot happier. At which point the ‘angel’ revealed himself to be quite the opposite, and urged JR to reach for what Clive James always referred to as his “gern”. We heard the gern go off, and that was it for the Ewings.

https://blog.incoherent.net/2012/09/05/dallas-the-next-generation-season-1-episode-1/

"James appeared on television too, becoming most famous for his shows … about television ... An in-depth discussion about Dallas prompted Stephen Fry to recall watching it dubbed into Italian abroad and realising that half the mesmerising power of JR’s villainry came from Larry Hagman’s decision to give him such a light, airy voice and manner in superb contrast to his diabolic nature."

https://www.theguardian.com/culture...wlingly-funny-critic-who-made-tv-writing-sing

"As if all that wasn't enough Clive James' reviews of [Dallas] in the Observer remain among the best television writing ever published. Genius."

https://www.insider.co.uk/special-reports/business-on-tv-dallas-10154064

"SOMEONE SHART JR

In a week which contained a full-scale production of Hamlet, the well-known tragedy by William Shakespeare, there could be no question about what was the most important event — the long-delayed episode of Dallas(BBC1) in which JR got shot.

The BBC overdid the joke, as the humourless are wont to do. After JR had been plugged there was an item on the Nine O’Clock News (BBC1) to tell the world that it had happened, almost as if anyone who hadn’t been watching would be interested in hearing about it. Before the episode rolled there was a great deal of preparatory barking from the link-men. ‘The long-awaited dramatic climax to the present series of Dallas — the shooting of JR!’ In the event, all you saw was JR getting mown down. You didn’t see who was pulling the trigger. Thus was the way left clear for another long tease-play before the next series arrives to put us out of our supposed misery.

The Beeb should realise, poor soft creature, that the Dallas thing is only a gag if you play it straight. After all, that’s what the actors are doing. With the possible exception of JR himself, everybody in the cast is working flat out to convey the full range of his or her, usually her, emotional commitment. Sue Ellen, in particular, was a study in passionate outrage when she realised the extent of her husband’s perfidy. Her mouth practically took off. You will remember that JR swindled all the other big oilmen in Dallas by selling them his oil wells ‘off the coast of South-East Asia’ just before the wells were nationalised, presumably by the South-East Asian Government. This behaviour filled Sue Ellen with disgerst, and she reached for her gern.

Sue Ellen keeps her gern in a bottom drawer. Or perhaps it is JR’s gern and on this occasion she was only borrowing it. Whatever the truth of that, you were left certain of one thing: that you could not be sure it was Sue Ellen who shot JR. Candidates for the honour were queueing up in the corridor. It is even possible that Miss Ellie shot him, since she has been showing increasing signs of madness, singing her dialogue instead of saying it. Don’t be surprised if the sheriff turns up with a wornt for her arrest. There could be a tornt of wornts."

https://wellthisiswhatithink.com/2013/09/04/a-true-genius-dont-go-just-yet-clive-james/
 

Kenny Coyote

Telly Talk Star
I think you mean Professor Joe Moran, but I take your point.

Clive James used to be very funny about Dallas. I think he was quite fond of it. I remember seeing a copy of the Observer Magazine in art class at school (for some reason, there was always a big stash of Sunday supplements in our art classes) with Linda Gray on the cover and a big article/interview James had done with the cast where he described that wobbly thing Sue Ellen does with her mouth (which I'd never noticed before) and how the Ewings seemed to assemble for a meal every twelve minutes. It just as the Dallas phenomenon was taking off and was probably one of the first big features about it in the UK (that wasn't about Victoria Principal's love life). I'd love to read it again to see how it holds up, but I've looked on the net, but no luck.

Clive James's fascination with the '80s soaps lasted throughout the decade. I remember him on TV discussing Season 8 of Dynasty with Germaine Greer of all people.

Just googled Clive James and Dallas together and came up with a few interesting things:

"From his books and beyond, it was clear that he was an ardent fan of Dallas (1978-91) writing on everything from the JR Ewing’s shooting to his vivid descriptions of JR’s screen wife Sue Ellen. He admitted to recording it twice and diagnosing himself as having Dallasosis which he defined as a “condition brought about by excess Dallas”.

https://weegiemidget.wordpress.com/remembrances/remembrances-2019/clive-james/

"Clive James, the Observer's TV critic at the time, called it: "Every American soap opera you have ever seen rolled into one and given an unlimited charge account at Neiman Marcus." The average Brit had never seen any other US soap opera, didn't know what a charge account was, and drew a total blank on Neiman Marcus, too, but that was all part of the fun."


https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2012/sep/04/dallas-return-stetsons-dawn

He first came to general notice writing pithy and frequently hilarious TV criticism for the Observer newspaper in London some thirty or so years ago. His ability to take ephemeral material and turn it into something guaranteed to make one both think and yet laugh out loud was unmatched – I well remember how in one glorious series of articles he would take the mangled southern US drawl of the characters of “Dallas” and turn his column into something approaching comic genius by spelling their dialogue out phonetically.

Thus, you will see, Sue-Ellen Ewing wasn’t an alcoholic, she had someone with what was hilariously described as a “drinkin’ prarlm”.

https://wellthisiswhatithink.com/2013/09/04/a-true-genius-dont-go-just-yet-clive-james/

Any critic who describes "Dallas" as "every American soap opera you have ever seen all rolled into one and given an unlimited charge account at Neiman-Marcus" can't be all bad. By American standards, however, he might be considered by some as just a bit naughty. John Simon-like naughtiness, but less cutting and with more wit. Especially when he goes on to describe J. R. Ewing as wearing "an Astroturf haircut and a hatband composed of what appear to be crushed budgerigars [budgie birds]."

https://www.csmonitor.com/1981/0327/032700.html

It seemed like pretty much everyone in the UK watched Dallas, from the highbrow to the lowbrow. Terry Wogan would recap events sarcastically on his morning Radio 2 show, coining such epithets as “the poison dwarf” (for the diminutive Lucy Ewing), while Clive James regularly chimed in from his cerebral Observer column to guiltily admit that he couldn’t live without his weekly fix of Ewing action.

But such popularity rarely lasts, and Dallas was finally wound up in 1991. Its final episode was a surfeit of surreal plot excess, as an ‘angel’ turned up to show JR how the Ewings might have lived if he’d never been born. In a devilish inversion of It’s a Wonderful Life, they were of course a lot happier. At which point the ‘angel’ revealed himself to be quite the opposite, and urged JR to reach for what Clive James always referred to as his “gern”. We heard the gern go off, and that was it for the Ewings.

https://blog.incoherent.net/2012/09/05/dallas-the-next-generation-season-1-episode-1/

"James appeared on television too, becoming most famous for his shows … about television ... An in-depth discussion about Dallas prompted Stephen Fry to recall watching it dubbed into Italian abroad and realising that half the mesmerising power of JR’s villainry came from Larry Hagman’s decision to give him such a light, airy voice and manner in superb contrast to his diabolic nature."

https://www.theguardian.com/culture...wlingly-funny-critic-who-made-tv-writing-sing

"As if all that wasn't enough Clive James' reviews of [Dallas] in the Observer remain among the best television writing ever published. Genius."

https://www.insider.co.uk/special-reports/business-on-tv-dallas-10154064

"SOMEONE SHART JR

In a week which contained a full-scale production of Hamlet, the well-known tragedy by William Shakespeare, there could be no question about what was the most important event — the long-delayed episode of Dallas(BBC1) in which JR got shot.

The BBC overdid the joke, as the humourless are wont to do. After JR had been plugged there was an item on the Nine O’Clock News (BBC1) to tell the world that it had happened, almost as if anyone who hadn’t been watching would be interested in hearing about it. Before the episode rolled there was a great deal of preparatory barking from the link-men. ‘The long-awaited dramatic climax to the present series of Dallas — the shooting of JR!’ In the event, all you saw was JR getting mown down. You didn’t see who was pulling the trigger. Thus was the way left clear for another long tease-play before the next series arrives to put us out of our supposed misery.

The Beeb should realise, poor soft creature, that the Dallas thing is only a gag if you play it straight. After all, that’s what the actors are doing. With the possible exception of JR himself, everybody in the cast is working flat out to convey the full range of his or her, usually her, emotional commitment. Sue Ellen, in particular, was a study in passionate outrage when she realised the extent of her husband’s perfidy. Her mouth practically took off. You will remember that JR swindled all the other big oilmen in Dallas by selling them his oil wells ‘off the coast of South-East Asia’ just before the wells were nationalised, presumably by the South-East Asian Government. This behaviour filled Sue Ellen with disgerst, and she reached for her gern.

Sue Ellen keeps her gern in a bottom drawer. Or perhaps it is JR’s gern and on this occasion she was only borrowing it. Whatever the truth of that, you were left certain of one thing: that you could not be sure it was Sue Ellen who shot JR. Candidates for the honour were queueing up in the corridor. It is even possible that Miss Ellie shot him, since she has been showing increasing signs of madness, singing her dialogue instead of saying it. Don’t be surprised if the sheriff turns up with a wornt for her arrest. There could be a tornt of wornts."

https://wellthisiswhatithink.com/2013/09/04/a-true-genius-dont-go-just-yet-clive-james/

Yes, I meant Moran.

Reading that, I wondered if that same type of humor would still be likely to be used these days, with political correctness having the effect on people's use of humor it has. These days people have to wonder if the joke that got a good reception last year is still considered "OK" to tell today. I don't know if it's gotten as bad in Europe as it has here in the U.S.

I can tell you that if here, if a columnist here did phonetic translation of dialogue to make fun of a character, a lot of people would get upset. I wouldn't but then I can't be politically correct. If someone did a column about Empire and described character saying: "Let me axe you a question" they'd never hear the end of it.
 
I'm fine with discussing opinions and yes, it is more interesting, but the thread started out with a post including that idea that it's possible to definitively state "it is high quality" or "it isn't high quality."

That was someone's subjective opinion (albeit, I agree, misleadingly stated as a fact).


If someone is going to flat out state "it wasn't" then he'd damn well better be able to back up his statement with criteria which is both objectively measurable and that we all agree on.

Maybe he did. That quote is one line from a 352 page book that I haven't read. He's on Twitter if you want to ask him about it.

But for the purposes of this thread, it's enough that someone expressed that opinion.




I remember seeing a copy of the Observer Magazine in art class at school (for some reason, there was always a big stash of Sunday supplements in our art classes) with Linda Gray on the cover and a big article/interview James had done with the cast where he described that wobbly thing Sue Ellen does with her mouth (which I'd never noticed before) and how the Ewings seemed to assemble for a meal every twelve minutes. It just as the Dallas phenomenon was taking off and was probably one of the first big features about it in the UK

What a find that was. I'm hoping you manage to track down that article again someday.

My school, too, always had a plethora of Sunday sups in our art rooms.


I remember him on TV discussing Season 8 of Dynasty with Germaine Greer of all people.

Good lord. I've read that line three or four times and I can't get it to compute.



Well This Is What I Think said:
I well remember how in one glorious series of articles he would take the mangled southern US drawl of the characters of “Dallas” and turn his column into something approaching comic genius by spelling their dialogue out phonetically.
Blog Incoherent's Simon said:
what Clive James always referred to as his “gern”. We heard the gern go off, and that was it for the Ewings.
Well This Is What I Think said:
SOMEONE SHART JR

These are really appealing to my daft sense of humour. A book compilation of Clive's Dallas articles is my new merchandise fantasy.
 

Kenny Coyote

Telly Talk Star
[QUOTE="James from London, post: 214930, member: 22" Its final episode was a surfeit of surreal plot excess, as an ‘angel’ turned up to show JR how the Ewings might have lived if he’d never been born. In a devilish inversion of It’s a Wonderful Life, they were of course a lot happier. At which point the ‘angel’ revealed himself to be quite the opposite, and urged JR to reach for what Clive James always referred to as his “gern”. We heard the gern go off, and that was it for the Ewings.[/QUOTE]

More misinformation from the critics. In the story the last episode told, Miss Ellie, Jock, Bobby and Cally all ended up much less happy. It turned out that JR's life had positive effects on some and negative effects on others.
 

James from London

International Treasure
An in-depth discussion about Dallas prompted Stephen Fry to recall watching it dubbed into Italian abroad and realising that half the mesmerising power of JR’s villainry came from Larry Hagman’s decision to give him such a light, airy voice and manner in superb contrast to his diabolic nature."

And here it is!


Miss Ellie ... singing her dialogue instead of saying it.

I've always remembered that description but didn't realise where it came from. I think it totally nails that slightly dreamy, faraway quality that BBG had as Miss Ellie, which added to the exotic otherness of Dallas. That's something a good critic does: they can bring into focus something that's just out of reach, a feeling one can't quite identify or a thought one hasn't yet formulated.

My school, too, always had a plethora of Sunday sups in our art rooms.

Why was that? I get that we had newspapers to cover the desks. Did the supplements just come along as part of the deal? Or were they hoarded in case of a collage emergency?

Good lord. I've read that line three or four times and I can't get it to compute.

Haha! All I remember is Greer saying she was confused because it was all the same characters as the last time she'd last watched it, but they were all differently paired off. I'm guessing Sammy Jeff threw her.
 
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And here it is!

Wow. That's great.

Stephen Fry said:
If we'd called Thatcher "Thatchy"... she would have rolled over and you could have tickled her.

I'd forgotten how animated and energetic Stephen used to be. Incorporating those Aussie bloke and butch Italian impressions was impressive. And he actually had Larry's mannerisms down for that brief impersonation.

Such erudition. His views on the "disc jockey type for whom America is just one big masturbatory fantasy... and suddenly they've got a milk bottle in their underpants because they've said something American" is everything I feel about the increasing appropriation of American language and culture by Brits.



That's something a good critic does: they can bring into focus something that's just out of reach, a feeling one can't quite identify or a thought one hasn't yet formulated.

I hadn't consciously thought that, but you're absolutely right. And if they can do that with wry humour, so much the better.



Why was that? I get that we had newspapers to cover the desks. Did the supplements just come along as part of the deal? Or were they hoarded in case of a collage emergency?

It might have come out of a staffroom politics thing. Brandishing their supplements on a Monday morning indicates which other teachers they would have most in common with. Kind of like that hanky code thing.



Haha! All I remember is Greer saying she was confused because it was all the same characters as the last time she'd last watched it, but they were all differently paired off. I'm guessing Sammy Jeff threw her.

Gosh. Let's hope she never watched Melrose Place, then.
 
Well if Dallas was good enough for the Queen Mother it was good enough for me.

That's some benchmark.

She was also a huge Neighbours fan, apparently*. Corrie too. I wonder if she was a secret forum member back in the early days.



* On a related note, I've just started watching random episodes of Anh's Brush With Fame on Daily Motion which is surprisingly compelling (it's basically celebs undergoing counselling while having their portraits painted). Craig McLachlan said that, among a bunch of other questions about the series, the Queen Mum asked him if he thought Henry would find love, to which he replied "Your Majesty, I hope so"."
 

James from London

International Treasure
You found English quotes about a cultural product not from their own island condescending? Perish the thought!

A point which the article has already made:

Friends was a near-instant hit in the UK, and while it was at first subject to the same sort of anti-US snobbery that afflicted Dallas, this surely said more about mid-90s British audiences than it did about mid-90s US television.

...

As the century ended and the golden era dawned – The Sopranos first aired on British television in the summer of 1999 – UK attitudes to US television were completely transformed from lazy derision of the likes of Dallas to breathless admiration.

I'd forgotten how animated and energetic Stephen used to be. Incorporating those Aussie bloke and butch Italian impressions was impressive. And he actually had Larry's mannerisms down for that brief impersonation.

Yes, his JR is spot on! And I hadn't really thought out about it before, but he's right - Hagman's casual, throwaway delivery is a big part of what makes his performance so effective.

Many moons ago, I was introduced to Tony Slattery as a Dallas fan and he told me that he and Stephen Fry would phone each other after every episode and discuss it at length.
 
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