JR and Miss Ellie

[stevew]

I liked Miss Ellie bit I do not think she was any better mother than Jock was a father to JR. There were moments but overall I find her to be a horrible mother to him. For example, his entire life making a big deal about his Southworth’s own South Fork, no drilling on the land, keeping her friend sons at home, even making the argument to give the ranch to her brother when he shows up. But then she has no problem giving 1/2 the ranch to Clayton and then all of it to Bobby. She had no problem driving a gas guzzling car or flying around in plans, but she’d stand by and watch the Gulf be drilled for oil to do it and not South Fork where it could be done the most safe (and if she directed it the most safe for the land), making no effort in her estate to even protect the land meting giving it to Bobby (which was phony anyway because he’d have had to drill to pay the gift tax). She did a good job at momma from Cat on A Hot Tim Roof, “Where is Brick? Where is my only son?” Should anyone be surprised JR turned out the way he did with the parents he had? No parents aren’t to blame for everything their children do, but they have to understand the effect they have in them. I always got the impression a lot of people and stuff came before JR. I never felt that way with my parents. I could have murdered some one and my parents would have visited me in jail all the time.

In a fan fiction I wrote once John Ross’s sister explained to Bobby the difference between her and him when it came to their brother. “If my brother would truly be happy burning down South Fork, even for just a moment, I’d bring the lighter fluid.” I feel the same could be said about my parents growing up. When my dad said he’d gladly cut off his right and left arm for me, I had no doubt it was true. I’m not sure Miss Ellie would give up a finger nail clipping for JR. Just the way I felt about their relationship.

 

[Top Jimmy]

There was a playful moment between the two in an early episode, sometime in the 1978-79 season. I don't remember the exact details, but I think Miss Ellie walks in or witnesses a rare affectionate moment between Sue Ellen and JR in their bedroom. I think they may have had sex, or it may have been shortly after Sue Ellen is pregnant, and Miss Ellie makes a reference to them being intimate. She also says "Junior, you were born old!" At least I think she said that in the scene. Does anyone else remember the scene I'm thinking of? I'm probably messing up some of the details. I think it was a rare moment where she laughs with JR.

Also, Miss Ellie displayed maternal warmth to JR after he was shot by Kristin and she thought Sue Ellen was the culprit. She and Jock visited JR in the hospital and helped him with his wheelchair. Miss Ellie gave Sue Ellen a dirty look when Sue Ellen tried to help JR, and Miss Ellie rebuffed her and took over, telling her she would do it.

 

[Kenny Coyote]

If I had been Sue Ellen, I´d have told Miss Ellie: "Here is Nick Pearce´s father´s number. Give him a call and ask him is he is disappointed too! Please b*tch...!"

If she'd spoken that way to my wife Sue Ellen would never set foot in our house again.

What does a son's mother care about some thug who broke into her son's home, threatened him, wouldn't leave when told to leave, then physically assaulted him, and then had the misfortune to die in the process? Does Nick get extra pity from Ellie because he was screwing her son's wife?

 

[Kenny Coyote]

Duplicate

 

[stevew]

If she'd spoken that way to my wife Sue Ellen would never set foot in our house again.

What does a son's mother care about some thug who broke into her son's home, threatened him, wouldn't leave when told to leave, then physically assaulted him, and then had the misfortune to die in the process? Does Nick get extra pity from Ellie because he was screwing her son's wife?

I think when it comes to JR and Sue Ellen we really can’t blame one or the other things, especially as we weren’t there from the start. It’s pretty obvious she married home for his money and he married her for her position. So, of course their marriage was full of misery and I’m sure neither ever really trusted the other loved them in the least. I do believe they did love each other and that only made things more difficult between the two of them. As for Miss Ellie, kind of hard as a mother to take the side of a woman who’s repeatedly cheating on your son and who has shot him, even if he’s done the same to her.

 

[Billy Wall]

I think when it comes to JR and Sue Ellen we really can’t blame one or the other things, especially as we weren’t there from the start. It’s pretty obvious she married home for his money and he married her for her position. So, of course their marriage was full of misery and I’m sure neither ever really trusted the other loved them in the least. I do believe they did love each other and that only made things more difficult between the two of them. As for Miss Ellie, kind of hard as a mother to take the side of a woman who’s repeatedly cheating on your son and who has shot him, even if he’s done the same to her.

I think you have to put the lions share of the blame at JR’s feet. Miss Ellie has even said to JR: “You’ve neglected that girl the moment you brought her into this house.”

 

[Kenny Coyote]

I think when it comes to JR and Sue Ellen we really can’t blame one or the other things, especially as we weren’t there from the start. It’s pretty obvious she married home for his money and he married her for her position. So, of course their marriage was full of misery and I’m sure neither ever really trusted the other loved them in the least. I do believe they did love each other and that only made things more difficult between the two of them. As for Miss Ellie, kind of hard as a mother to take the side of a woman who’s repeatedly cheating on your son and who has shot him, even if he’s done the same to her.

I can't blame one more than the other in a marriage that has clearly gone bad, especially since we weren't there for the first seven years of it. Marriage is a mutual relationship and the two of them, for whatever combination of reasons, had a marriage that had gone terribly wrong. At some point, the two people involved in that have got to have the strength to walk away from that marriage, for their happiness and for their son's own good. Sue Ellen saying she was going to stay at Southfork because she had "earned the right" was delusional. No such right exists and it was a horrible idea to have their son grow up witnessing such a brutally dysfunctional relationship with that as his primary example of what love is supposed to look like.

 

[Toni]

If she'd spoken that way to my wife Sue Ellen would never set foot in our house again.

What does a son's mother care about some thug who broke into her son's home, threatened him, wouldn't leave when told to leave, then physically assaulted him, and then had the misfortune to die in the process? Does Nick get extra pity from Ellie because he was screwing her son's wife?

I can´t help but putting myself on Sue Ellen´s side. Nick wasn´t a thug, to begin with. He was a financial consultant (or something like that) who happened to fall in love with Sue Ellen, and wanted to help her out of an abusive relationship. Aside from his family former mob connections, Nick was decent, charming and a gentleman. Did Miss Ellie try to know the truth about why he ended up flying his way down to the pavement during a fight with J.R.? No. Did Miss Ellie try to be equal in the fact that John Ross needed to be able to see his mum instead of being locked up in a boarding school? No. She didn´t care, even less than she cared about the injustice that was separating Baby Lucy from Val. And well, Nick wasn´t a one-night fling for Sue Ellen: they were in love.

All those things don´t need to be taken into account by a compassionate, warm, but somewhat delusional woman like Miss Ellie? I think yes. Again, blame on the writing...either that, or Miss Ellie was a much different woman (Larry Hagman himself said very often that even the mother was a b*tch in the beginning..."no decent person there"). Also, the complexity of the character was made believable by that force of nature that was the one and only Barbara Bel Geddes. Just my 2 cents...

 

[stevew]

I think you have to put the lions share of the blame at JR’s feet. Miss Ellie has even said to JR: “You’ve neglected that girl the moment you brought her into this house.”

She also admitted to neglecting JR the moment Jock returned from the war, so I’m not sure she qualifies as a good judge of neglect. I’m also not sure “neglect” from a man you knew was running a large business counts as a reason to “blame” him for the issues of the marriage.

 

[stevew]

I can't blame one more than the other in a marriage that has clearly gone bad, especially since we weren't there for the first seven years of it. Marriage is a mutual relationship and the two of them, for whatever combination of reasons, had a marriage that had gone terribly wrong. At some point, the two people involved in that have got to have the strength to walk away from that marriage, for their happiness and for their son's own good. Sue Ellen saying she was going to stay at Southfork because she had "earned the right" was delusional. No such right exists and it was a horrible idea to have their son grow up witnessing such a brutally dysfunctional relationship with that as his primary example of what love is supposed to look like.

VERY well put.

 

[stevew]

I can´t help but putting myself on Sue Ellen´s side. Nick wasn´t a thug, to begin with. He was a financial consultant (or something like that) who happened to fall in love with Sue Ellen, and wanted to help her out of an abusive relationship. Aside from his family former mob connections, Nick was decent, charming and a gentleman. Did Miss Ellie try to know the truth about why he ended up flying his way down to the pavement during a fight with J.R.? No. Did Miss Ellie try to be equal in the fact that John Ross needed to be able to see his mum instead of being locked up in a boarding school? No. She didn´t care, even less than she cared about the injustice that was separating Baby Lucy from Val. And well, Nick wasn´t a one-night fling for Sue Ellen: they were in love.

All those things don´t need to be taken into account by a compassionate, warm, but somewhat delusional woman like Miss Ellie? I think yes. Again, blame on the writing...either that, or Miss Ellie was a much different woman (Larry Hagman himself said very often that even the mother was a b*tch in the beginning..."no decent person there"). Also, the complexity of the character was made believable by that force of nature that was the one and only Barbara Bel Geddes. Just my 2 cents...

I agree that there was no decent person in Dallas. Miss Ellie was written to be this sweet old lady. It if you look close enough, as you say “know the truth” she was a selfish woman who participated in the abuse of her children and grandchildren. People like Jock and JR come off as bad guys but they weren’t alone no matter how much the “good” guys faked it. As far as I can tell Sue Ellen married JR to use his wealth and position. Pamela pushed Bobby into business when it’s not what he wanted, then later with her brother Wollongong accepted 2/3’s of everything Katherine’s father worked for his whole life. These aren’t good people no matter how much we want to like them.

 

[Billy Wall]

She also admitted to neglecting JR the moment Jock returned from the war, so I’m not sure she qualifies as a good judge of neglect. I’m also not sure “neglect” from a man you knew was running a large business counts as a reason to “blame” him for the issues of the marriage.

If you’re referring to those late night business meetings at a hotel, I agree. Lol Come on, we all know what she was talking about. And as for Jock, he cheated on Miss Ellie during the war. Did Miss Ellie cheat on Jock?

 

[stevew]

If you’re referring to those late night business meetings at a hotel, I agree. Lol Come on, we all know what she was talking about. And as for Jock, he cheated on Miss Ellie during the war. Did Miss Ellie cheat on Jock?

No I don’t know exactly what she was taking about and anyone in that job will actually work a great deal. There is also more to a marriage failure than cheating. For all we know Jock felt insecure about Digger and Miss Ellie exasperated those feelings in fact for all we know she cheated during the war as well. Gary certainly looked a lot different than the rest and Jock really disliked him. All of this of course is just guess work. We don’t know what caused any of these situation but in my life I’ve always found “blame” is big enough to be shared.

 

[CeeCee72]

This is a great discussion.

I have always wondered why Miss Ellie was viewed by so many people as a sweet, loving matriarch. She manipulated her kids and their lives even more than Jock did. She also refused to interfere in any bad or destructive behavior going on in her own home unless is directly impacted her.

Consider:

- She forced Jock to keep Bobby on a president of Ewing Oil after JR was shot, solely for selfish reasons (keeping Bobby at Southfork) without caring one bit about how JR would be affected.

- She had no problem pitting Pam against Bobby or Donna against Ray whenever it suited her (breaking the will, the land deal, etc.). She never worried one bit about the strain it put on their marriages.

- She allowed Lucy to be taken from her mother and was complicit in keeping Gary out of Lucy's life.

- She turned a blind eye to all the abusive relationships in her own household. Her grandchildren were being damaged by the behavior of their parents and she never interfered, choosing to let it all go just to "keep the family together."

Others have already pointed out other instances of her bad mothering. I actually think she may have damaged her kids even more than Jock did.

 

[Kenny Coyote]

People like Jock and JR come off as bad guys but they weren’t alone no matter how much the “good” guys faked it.

You thought Jock came off as bad? If he's bad, I'd really like see someone who would meet the standard of "good." Ray said Jock was the best man he ever knew. His sons loved him. His wife loved him. They had a successful marriage for over 40 years.

Jock was a hard working, extremely productive man. He set a standard his sons aspired to reach, but never did. He is the man who saved Southfork from being auctioned off and the man who built an empire from the ground up. That's quite an accomplishment. He didn't even have any significant money to help him get started.

People from big oil company owners down to small business owners liked him and said his "word was better than a contract." I'm sure he was good at playing "hardball" but everyone in the oil business did that; it's a matter of adapting to one's environment. First you ask: "What do I have to do to be able to survive"? Then you find out what you have to do to flourish in that environment. I think Jock became what he had to be in that business. He was retiring almost right after the show started, so we got to see very little of him doing business. Since we didn't see him build his company, I have to go on: "Did Jock Ewing have the respect and trust of the rest of the oil community"? The majority, by far, would have said yes they respected him and also trusted him.

 

[Swami]

You thought Jock came off as bad? If he's bad, I'd really like see someone who would meet the standard of "good." Ray said Jock was the best man he ever knew. His sons loved him. His wife loved him. They had a successful marriage for over 40 years.

Jock was a hard working, extremely productive man. He set a standard his sons aspired to reach, but never did. He is the man who saved Southfork from being auctioned off and the man who built an empire from the ground up. That's quite an accomplishment. He didn't even have any significant money to help him get started.

People from big oil company owners down to small business owners liked him and said his "word was better than a contract." I'm sure he was good at playing "hardball" but everyone in the oil business did that; it's a matter of adapting to one's environment. First you ask: "What do I have to do to be able to survive"? Then you find out what you have to do to flourish in that environment. I think Jock became what he had to be in that business. He was retiring almost right after the show started, so we got to see very little of him doing business. Since we didn't see him build his company, I have to go on: "Did Jock Ewing have the respect and trust of the rest of the oil community"? The majority, by far, would have said yes they respected him and also trusted him.

Jock was the first one to admit that he taught JR everything he knew, but he didn't teach him when to stop. At the same time, he warned JR against dealing with Ames and Garr, saying their fathers were men he could have dealt with, but not their young boys. On several occasions the Cartel ended up dealing with Ewing Oil primarily out of loyalty to Jock.

Swami

 

[CeeCee72]

I think Jock came off a very honorable. He had high ideals and standards and tried to live up to them.

But as a father, I think his high expectations and lofty goals were crushing to the boys - especially to Gary. And honestly, JR was driven to impress him to the point he would do ANYTHING to make him proud.

I actually think Ray had the best relationship with Jock. He grew up away from his influence and was already a grown man when he found out Jock was his father. He didn't have the same pressure as the others. And to me, Ray always had the best character and sense of decency...and he was the only one NOT raised by Jock and Ellie.

 

[Swami]

I've just remembered another rare moment of praise for JR from Miss Ellie, to Jock as he awaits bypass surgery.

Jock worries about not having been a good father, Ellie says "Look at JR, he may get on your nerves once in a while but he's done wonders for Ewing Oil, a natural born businessman"

Swami

 

[stevew]

You thought Jock came off as bad? If he's bad, I'd really like see someone who would meet the standard of "good." Ray said Jock was the best man he ever knew. His sons loved him. His wife loved him. They had a successful marriage for over 40 years.

Jock was a hard working, extremely productive man. He set a standard his sons aspired to reach, but never did. He is the man who saved Southfork from being auctioned off and the man who built an empire from the ground up. That's quite an accomplishment. He didn't even have any significant money to help him get started.

People from big oil company owners down to small business owners liked him and said his "word was better than a contract." I'm sure he was good at playing "hardball" but everyone in the oil business did that; it's a matter of adapting to one's environment. First you ask: "What do I have to do to be able to survive"? Then you find out what you have to do to flourish in that environment. I think Jock became what he had to be in that business. He was retiring almost right after the show started, so we got to see very little of him doing business. Since we didn't see him build his company, I have to go on: "Did Jock Ewing have the respect and trust of the rest of the oil community"? The majority, by far, would have said yes they respected him and also trusted him.

I think you forgot Donna’s book and the things she exposed that Jock did, which most certainly were the tip of the iceberg. That doesn’t take away from his accomplishments but JR wasn’t alone in being a “bad” guy to accomplish his goals. In fact it was Jock who taught JR to do what ever he “had” to do. You might be comfortable with justifying wrongs because it was the environment of big oil at the time, like done with all sorts of businesses all across time, like with slavery for instance. But not everyone is. In my opinion what is wrong now was wrong then and I expect to be held to that standard by those who follow me. Morality doesn’t change based on time as far as I’m concerned. And I’m not sure I care about the respect of those of the oil industry which included people like H.L. Hunt (real life). The very cartel it self, designed to set prices, was immoral and anti-capitalistic in its nature, not to mention illegal. So yes I find him to be a “bad” guy, and in fact most if not all to be very heavy shades of gray in morality. The point was most seem to view them as such, the two bad guys. I could be wrong. I suppose you could do a poll to see the consensus within this community.

 

[stevew]

I think Jock came off a very honorable. He had high ideals and standards and tried to live up to them.

But as a father, I think his high expectations and lofty goals were crushing to the boys - especially to Gary. And honestly, JR was driven to impress him to the point he would do ANYTHING to make him proud.

I actually think Ray had the best relationship with Jock. He grew up away from his influence and was already a grown man when he found out Jock was his father. He didn't have the same pressure as the others. And to me, Ray always had the best character and sense of decency...and he was the only one NOT raised by Jock and Ellie.

I can agree with Ray. He seemed a bit more gray early on, sleeping around with the bosses young granddaughter but as it turned out you have a point.