JR and Vanessa

Ray&Donna

Eternal Member
I've seen numerous people on this forum trash Gayle Hunnicutt as looking old, but my primary issue was that JR had some previously unknown romance we were unaware of. JR never seemed particularly romantic to me, he treated women abominably.. then he decided he was going to eliminate Cally and live with Vanessa in his old age
 

Rove

Telly Talk Warrior
Thankfully my memory of Vanessa diminishes with time. My personal DVD collection of Dallas finishes with "Swan Song." I also believe I had witnessed the best of Dallas and anything past this point pales in comparison to those early years.

I had no issue with past indiscretions of JR popping back into Dallas but it all seemed so attention grabbing rather than anything organic. Of all the relationships JR had I think his dalliance with Cally takes the cake. That was just plain weird. Funny how people accepted JR and Cally but had major issues with Sue Ellen and Peter.
 

Swami

Telly Talk Supreme
Of all the poor storylines of the final seasons, this really was one of the worst. It just defied belief that JR would get all lovey-d0vey about someone so utterly antiquated and old-fashioned.

Fair enough, if they were finally going to split JR and Sue Ellen up, at least pair JR up in a believable relationship, instead of lumbering him with a jaded Xanthippe.

For all the criticism of JR & Mandy, there was a chemistry to it (OK, not to the same level as JR & Sue Ellen).

For me, the only storylines which are worse than JR and that Beaumont woman are Haleyville, JR in the sanatorium and Angelica Nero - that's how bad I found it.

Swami
 

Kenny Coyote

Telly Talk Star
The other awful dalliance that JR had was with Rose McKay, that doesn't bear thinking about.

Swami

True but at least he got something out of it; it was a sacrifice he made for Ewing Oil to get Rose to put a bug in Carter McKay's office. It would have been a better scene if JR had looked upwards in the midst of it and said: "Daddy, I sure hope you're proud of me now because I'm really takin' one for the team here. If this doesn't prove my dedication to Ewing Oil, nothing ever will"!

As for Peter, 20 year old guys aren't typically interested in women old enough to be their mothers while women often go for older men so that was also part of what was so bizarre about Sue Ellen and Peter.

Who knows, it might have been a practical joke the rest of the crew were playing on Linda Gray by pairing her up with John Ross' playmate. Maybe she'd done something to upset some people and the Peter storyline was payback. If it was a rib on Linda Gray, it was a hell of a rib!
 
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Swami

Telly Talk Supreme
True but at least he got something out of it; it was a sacrifice he made for Ewing Oil to get Rose to put a bug in Carter McKay's office. It would have been a better scene if JR had looked upwards in the midst of it and said: "Daddy, I sure hope you're proud of me now because I'm really takin' one for the team here. If this doesn't prove my dedication to Ewing Oil, nothing ever will"!

I suppose you have a point there, perhaps that sums up JR's raison d'etre, in that he doesn't really have a line that he won't cross in terms of doing what he can for Ewing Oil.

Swami
 

tommie

Telly Talk Hero
I've seen numerous people on this forum trash Gayle Hunnicutt as looking old, but my primary issue was that JR had some previously unknown romance we were unaware of. JR never seemed particularly romantic to me, he treated women abominably.. then he decided he was going to eliminate Cally and live with Vanessa in his old age

Eh, I don't think there's an issue with JR having an old romance popping up - he was what? In his late 20s/early 30s when he and Swellin' got married?

I think the main issue is that they tried to oversell it as she was his first true love and all that - why? Just have her be an old fling and have her pop up with a son (preferably not played by an underwear model) - it's completely believeable that JR would have a bastard kid out there somewhere, it was just the writing that was off.
 

Kenny Coyote

Telly Talk Star
I've never understood it either, the actress is younger than both Larry & Linda.


All I can put it down to is pure ignorance from those who refer her old.

I put it down to: Nobody had the internet and quick access to IMDb back then, so the age of the actress was a non-issue. It was how old the actress looked - not her real age that mattered. Put Vanessa in a picture with Cally and Mandy - which one of the three doesn't quite belong in the picture?
 
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Ome

Admin Emeritus
It was how old the actress looked - not her real age that mattered.

I can't say any of the actor's ages every crossed my mind apart from Peter Richards


Put Vanessa in a picture with Cally and Mandy - which one doesn't belong in the picture?


Why does there have to be a right or a wrong? What is wrong with a little diversity?


I thought it was interesting how they moved JR from the younger Cally, to the older Vanessa. Whatever Vanessa was wearing or how she behaved also made for an interesting route to take JR at that point in his life.
 

Ome

Admin Emeritus
I put it down to: Nobody had the internet and quick access to IMDb back then, so the age of the actress was a non-issue.

I don't recall discussing what people in the late 80s/early 90s were saying about the character, I can only go on what has been posted here on the Dallas forum over the last few years.

So, therefore, people behaving ageist about the character is happening now while we have the Internet and IMDb - I can't comment on something that might have been said back in the late 80s, early 90s.
 

Kenny Coyote

Telly Talk Star
Why does there have to be a right or a wrong? What is wrong with a little diversity?

I don't see it as a matter of right and wrong but having seen the women JR had been attracted to, she wasn't it.

So, therefore, people behaving ageist about the character is happening now while we have the Internet and IMDb - I can't comment on something that might have been said back in the late 80s, early 90s.

What is ageist? Is that having a type, such as a woman who goes for older men, or a man who goes for younger women? If a man likes a woman of a certain height, is he "heightist"?

I'm commenting on my initial reaction to seeing Vanessa appear in the series during the initial run. That's how I saw it then and I my reaction hasn't changed because she still doesn't look like she'd have been his type.

EDIT: I looked it up and it's to discriminate on the basis of age, but discriminating is a good thing:

Definition of discriminate


transitive verb

1a: to mark or perceive the distinguishing or peculiar features ofDepth perception may be defined as the ability to appreciate or discriminate the third dimension …— H. G. Armstrong
b: DISTINGUISH, DIFFERENTIATEdiscriminate hundreds of colors
2: to distinguish by discerning or exposing differences : to recognize or identify as separate and distinct


If people couldn't discriminate from one person to the next, they wouldn't be able to tell the difference between one person and the next and that would be the end of romance because all people would be interchangeable!
 
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Michelle Stevens

'The Lovely Michelle'
I liked the idea of exploring JR's pre-Sue Ellen romances be it Vanessa Beaumont or Lee Ann De La Vega. He didn't marry Sue Ellen until 1970 so no doubt he had many loves before Sue Ellen. The fact we became attached to Sue Ellen after twelve seasons and never once did we hear of any of his past romances does make it unsettling when he says at one point to Vanessa that she was his truest love. Bobby always had Jenna Wade that entered the mix when he as married to Pam but they never though of that dynamic for JR until 1989. I liked Vanessa as she as a noble character.
 

CeeCee72

Telly Talk Star
As for Peter, 20 year old guys aren't typically interested in women old enough to be their mothers while women often go for older men so that was also part of what was so bizarre about Sue Ellen and Peter.

Um... Not true.

As a woman with hobbies that are more traditionally appealing to men (poker, football, sports in general, politics) who found herself suddenly single in her 40s...

Younger men were constantly hitting on me, much more so than the older men. It was constant enough to be annoying. The young ones see them as "cougars" who can "teach" them and make them feel more manly. Not to mention they are attracted to having a relationship with woman who is more emotionally mature and not dependent on a man to make her feel good about herself.

And it wasn't just my personal experience. I saw it all the time. There's nothing unusual about a man in his 20s persuing an older woman.
 

CeeCee72

Telly Talk Star
When Vanessa first showed up, I was intrigued. She was different. And at that point, I would have supported ANYTHING that got JR away from Cally.

BUT...

JR and Vanessa had ZERO chemistry together. Watching them on screen together was dull. And it was jarring to hear JR wax on about how she was his true love. Although, I chalk that up to him trying to convince himself of that more than anything else.

As for Vanessa not being JR's "type," well she wasn't. And it wasn't her age, it was that she wasn't glamorous.
 

Swami

Telly Talk Supreme
When Vanessa first showed up, I was intrigued. She was different. And at that point, I would have supported ANYTHING that got JR away from Cally.

BUT...

JR and Vanessa had ZERO chemistry together. Watching them on screen together was dull. And it was jarring to hear JR wax on about how she was his true love. Although, I chalk that up to him trying to convince himself of that more than anything else.

As for Vanessa not being JR's "type," well she wasn't. And it wasn't her age, it was that she wasn't glamorous.

If the writers were determined to pair JR off with someone other than Sue Ellen, then Mandy was the only choice. His various dalliances in the later seasons left a lot to be desired.

Swami
 

Seaviewer

Telly Talk Warrior
It just defied belief that JR would get all lovey-d0vey about someone so utterly antiquated and old-fashioned.

Although I didn't buy it either, the idea was that she was his original one true love. He didn't suddenly "get all lovey-dovey". He was seeing her as that love that he had lost.
 

CeeCee72

Telly Talk Star
Although I didn't buy it either, the idea was that she was his original one true love. He didn't suddenly "get all lovey-dovey". He was seeing her as that love that he had lost.
Which could have actually been INTERESTING and a chance for JR to have some emotional growth - if the writers had bothered to try.
 

Kenny Coyote

Telly Talk Star
Not true.

As a woman with hobbies that are more traditionally appealing to men (poker, football, sports in general, politics) who found herself suddenly single in her 40s...

Younger men were constantly hitting on me, much more so than the older men. It was constant enough to be annoying. The young ones see them as "cougars" who can "teach" them and make them feel more manly. Not to mention they are attracted to having a relationship with woman who is more emotionally mature and not dependent on a man to make her feel good about herself.

And it wasn't just my personal experience. I saw it all the time. There's nothing unusual about a man in his 20s persuing an older woman.

Oh, I don't doubt it. There are instances of young men being attracted to women older than they are, but on average, when there is an age difference in a couple, more often than not, it is the man who is older. If you think of the married couples you know, who tends to be the older one in those marriages, the man or the woman?

You said it was constant enough to be annoying. Is that because they were young or for some other reason?

I've heard about the cougar thing, and when I first heard about it, I thought it was a fad. I don't know if that phenomenon is just as prevalent as it once was or not. It's my impression that the cougar phenomenon was usually young men looking to have a fling with an older woman as opposed to a serious relationship with the possibility of marriage.

It makes all the sense in the world why typically, woman go for men a little bit older than them and men go for women a little younger than them when they are looking for someone to marry. While a man can become a father at almost any age, a woman's time window for becoming a mother is much briefer. If two people, looking to marry and start a family are a man who is 24 and the woman is 36, they're going to have to hurry to have children while it's still safe. Is a man in his mid-twenties likely to be able to support a wife and kids? Probably not. He's just starting to work his way up to his full earning potential and money will be tight int those first few years even without children, unless the woman has a high income. But if she's decided to become a mom and wants to spend time at home with her kids until they're old enough to start kindergarten, then her income goes away and the man is supporting the family. It's far more likely that a man who is in his mid-thirties will be able to support them than he would have been ten years earlier when he was likely earning considerably less.

Which could have actually been INTERESTING and a chance for JR to have some emotional growth - if the writers had bothered to try

That would have been a very positive step for the show. Do you think there was still time to turn the show around to what it was like in its glory years, or do you think it would have been a case of too little, too late?
 
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