Neil Young and Joni Mitchell leave Spotify over Joe Rogan

Angela Channing

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I know some people are trying to turn this issue into one about Joe Rohan's freedom of speech but it really isn't about that. Mr Rogan can say whatever he likes but if he, or someone on his podcast, is saying something that is clearly inaccurate and also dangerous, then others should be allowed to exercise their freedom of speech to challenge what he is saying.
 

Emelee

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I know some people are trying to turn this issue into one about Joe Rohan's freedom of speech but it really isn't about that. Mr Rogan can say whatever he likes but if he, or someone on his podcast, is saying something that is clearly inaccurate and also dangerous, then others should be allowed to exercise their freedom of speech to challenge what he is saying.

Anyone should be able to listen to the pod and everyone should be able to reply to it with their opinions of the topic. Forcing the platform to cencur a pod isn't the right way to go. Two wrongs don't make a right. There are much better ways to deal with it. We don't want to become China.
 

Angela Channing

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Anyone should be able to listen to the pod and everyone should be able to reply to it with their opinions of the topic. Forcing the platform to cencur a pod isn't the right way to go. Two wrongs don't make a right. There are much better ways to deal with it. We don't want to become China.
Were either Neil Young or Joni Mitchell trying to censor Joe Rogan? I thought they both said they didn't want their music associated with Spotify because that platform was allowing Joe Rogan to promote incorrect anti-vaxx material. They were just drawing attention to the misinformation and inaccuracies of some the podcast's anti-vaxx messaging.
 
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Frank Underwood

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It's not really a scientific debate because overwhelmingly the science is on one side which is that covid vaccines are safe, effective and are saving lives. A debate suggests that evidence and opinion is more equally split. It's like saying there is a debate whether climate change is real when 99% of scientific opinion says it exists.
Scientific debate isn't limited to vaccines. There's also debate over lockdowns, mandates, alternative medications, vaccinating everybody vs. specifically targeting vulnerable groups, etc. Majority opinions haven't always been on the right side of history either. Covid policies are being determined by a group of scientists, governmental health officials, and pharmaceutical corporations who all have their own agendas. If other scientists with backgrounds in epidemiology, virology, and immunology come along and present different ideas on how to control Covid, I'm going to listen to what they have to say. It doesn't necessarily mean they're right, but they should be allowed to make their case.

A year ago, media figures such as Rachel Maddow and even President Joe Biden claimed the virus stopped with every vaccinated person and couldn't be spread to others. We now know this is misinformation. Vaccinated people can develop breakthrough cases and spread Covid to others. If someone said this was possible back then, they would have been accused of spreading a dangerous conspiracy theory. That's the problem with trying to silence dissenting views and limiting Covid information to establishment sources.

You are right about hospital overcrowding being a long standing issue but it has been made so much worse in the pandemic by beds being taken up by covid patients, the majority of whom are unvaccinated. This isn't a point of debate, this is a demonstrable fact.
When something has already failed, it's only natural that stressing it even further will make that failure even worse.

In the US, the pandemic has put a huge spotlight on a failed healthcare system that prioritizes profits over people, and a government that's both apathetic and complicit.
 
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Frank Underwood

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Were either Neil Young or Joni Mitchell trying to censor Joe Rogan? I thought they both said they didn't want their music associated with Spotify because that platform was allowing Joe Rogan to promote incorrect anti-vaxx material. They were just drawing attention to the misinformation and inaccuracies of some the podcast's anti-vaxx messaging.
Detailing his personal experience with Covid and advocating for alternative treatments does not make Rogan "anti-vax."

Rogan admitted he's not a doctor. He's simply interested in hearing from a variety of medical experts on how best to deal with Covid, including those in the mainstream.

Artists like Young and Mitchell allow their music to be on platforms that treat their employees inhumanely such as Amazon, which proves they're phony moral crusaders.
 

Angela Channing

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Detailing his personal experience with Covid and advocating for alternative treatments does not make Rogan "anti-vax."

Rogan admitted he's not a doctor. He's simply interested in hearing from a variety of medical experts on how best to deal with Covid, including those in the mainstream.

Artists like Young and Mitchell allow their music to be on platforms that treat their employees inhumanely such as Amazon, which proves they're phony moral crusaders.
It's more than that. He's spreading lies and misinformation to undermine confidence in the vaccine programme.

Mr Rogan said "This is not a vaccine, this is essentially a gene therapy". This is a complete lie. There is nothing in any of the approved vaccines that can change DNA.

Mr Rogan said "I don't think it's true there's an increased risk of myocarditis from people catching Covid-19 that are young, versus the risk from the vaccine". This is another lie. In reality, research has shown that this condition, which can lead to shortness of breath, chest pain and in very rare cases to heart failure, is considerably more common after a Covid infection than after vaccination, as is also the case with blood clots. It also appears that cases of myocarditis post-vaccination are generally milder and shorter-lasting.

His podcast has also promoted the use of Ivermectin to cure Covid. This claim was made on an episode by Bret Weinstein who said: "Ivermectin alone is capable of driving this pathogen to extinction". This simply isn't true. There is some low quality, unverified research that also made this claim and in some cases the data had been clearly manipulated. This may be what he was basing his opinion on. If you look only at rigorously carried out peer reviewed studies, there is no evidence of the drug's effectiveness.


On the podcast Robert Malone said if you get vaccinated after having had Covid, you're at greater risk of harmful side effects. Although, studies have shown that a very small number of conditions, e.g blood clots and heart inflammation, are slightly more likely after certain vaccines, they are extremely rare and far less than the harmful effects of getting Covid.

Mr Rogan is not just relaying his personal experience, he is spreading misleading anti-vaxx propaganda.
 
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Frank Underwood

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Mr Rogan said "I don't think it's true there's an increased risk of myocarditis from people catching Covid-19 that are young, versus the risk from the vaccine". This is another lie. In reality, research has shown that this condition, which can lead to shortness of breath, chest pain and in very rare cases to heart failure, is considerably more common after a Covid infection than after vaccination, as is also the case with blood clots. It also appears that cases of myocarditis post-vaccination are generally milder and shorter-lasting.
Rogan said this during a conversation with Australian media personality Josh Szeps. When Szeps said Rogan was incorrect, Rogan fact checked himself during the podcast. Rogan later tweeted "If anyone was going to make me look dumb on the podcast I’m glad it’s @joshzepps, because I love him, and he’s awesome. However this is why I was confused: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...zer-jab-side-effect-than-covid-suggests-study."

Szeps was praised for "shutting down" Rogan by his detractors, to which Szeps tweeted "I hope readers realize that Rogan enjoys this kind of pushback. I hardly 'shut him down'. He's a big boy."

An MD named Vinay Prasad weighed in and said "At some ages, for Men, for some doses of specific mRNA shots, the risk of vaccine induced myocarditis exceeds the risk of myocarditis from infection."

It's more than that. He's spreading lies and misinformation to undermine confidence in the vaccine programme.

Mr Rogan said "This is not a vaccine, this is essentially a gene therapy". This is a complete lie. There is nothing in any of the approved vaccines that can change DNA.

His podcast has also promoted the use of Ivermectin to cure Covid. This claim was made on an episode by Bret Weinstein who said: "Ivermectin alone is capable of driving this pathogen to extinction". This simply isn't true. There is some low quality, unverified research that also made this claim and in some cases the data had been clearly manipulated. This may be what he was basing his opinion on. If you look only at rigorously carried out peer reviewed studies, there is no evidence of the drug's effectiveness.


On the podcast Robert Malone said if you get vaccinated after having had Covid, you're at greater risk of harmful side effects. Although, studies have shown that a very small number of conditions, e.g blood clots and heart inflammation, are slightly more likely after certain vaccines, they are extremely rare and far less than the harmful effects of getting Covid.

Mr Rogan is not just relaying his personal experience, he is spreading misleading anti-vaxx propaganda.
Rogan was on a regimen of vitamins and medications, of which Ivermectin was one of. I don't how effective it is, but Rogan recovered from Covid within a few days.

I also don't know if Rogan's done any further fact checking or backtracking on these particular claims, but I find the following statement from him indicative of his intent:

"Do I get things wrong? Absolutely I get things wrong, but I try to correct them. Whenever I get something wrong, I try to correct it cause' I'm interested in telling the truth. I'm interested in finding out what the truth is. And I'm interested in having interesting conversations with people that have differing opinions. I'm not interested in only talking to people that have one perspective. That's one of the reasons why I had Dr. Sanjay Gupta on, who I respect very much, and I really enjoyed our conversation together. He has a different opinion than those men (Dr. Peter Mccullough and Dr. Robert Malone) do. I had Dr. Michael Osterholm on at the very beginning of the pandemic. He is on President Biden's Covid 19 advisory board. I had Dr. Peter Hotez on who is a vaccine expert. I'm interested in finding out what is correct and also finding out how people come to these conclusions and what the facts are." - Joe Rogan
 

Emelee

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Were either Neil Young or Joni Mitchell trying to censor Joe Rogan? I thought they both said they didn't want their music associated with Spotify because that platform was allowing Joe Rogan to promote incorrect anti-vaxx material. They were just drawing attention to the misinformation and inaccuracies of some the podcast's anti-vaxx messaging.

Yes they were. It was basically saying "it's him or me". Either you remove him or you remove me. In my world that is an attempt to censor Spotify and I don't like it at all. I'm glad Spotify said no to them. I agree that it's wrong to spread incorrect "facts", but not with the Young/Mitchell solution. Cause what's next? A pod where they discuss if avortion should be illegal and artists demand "remove that pod or my music"?

They'll probably be back on Spotify when the pandemic is over.
 

Angela Channing

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Yes they were. It was basically saying "it's him or me". Either you remove him or you remove me. In my world that is an attempt to censor Spotify and I don't like it at all. I'm glad Spotify said no to them. I agree that it's wrong to spread incorrect "facts", but not with the Young/Mitchell solution. Cause what's next? A pod where they discuss if avortion should be illegal and artists demand "remove that pod or my music"?

They'll probably be back on Spotify when the pandemic is over.
A better comparison would be if a podcast misinformed people that abortion will lead to lifelong infertility and should that message be challenged or not? It's more a question about do we think it's right that people should be allowed to give incorrect and dangerous information without it being disputed.
 

Emelee

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A better comparison would be if a podcast misinformed people that abortion will lead to lifelong infertility and should that message be challenged or not? It's more a question about do we think it's right that people should be allowed to give incorrect and dangerous information without it being disputed.

But is it very dangerous not to get vaccinated against covid? Most people who got covid before the vaccine came survived.

Covid vaccine is IMO important, but I don't care for it being mandatory for all since most people survive it. Also because a friend's little brother died of the swineflu vaccine, a vaccine said to be "safe". And I don't really trust the covid vaccines from Russia and China etc.

I prefer adding disclaimers before podcasts with questionable content rather than censoring/removing.
 

Angela Channing

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But is it very dangerous not to get vaccinated against covid?
If you have an underlying health condition or elderly and a virulent variant of Covid is prevalent in your society then yes it is very dangerous. If you don't fall in any of those categories the level of danger is less but still significantly higher than being vaccinated.
 

Crimson

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Artists like Young and Mitchell allow their music to be on platforms that treat their employees inhumanely such as Amazon, which proves they're phony moral crusaders.

I know it's not the main issue here, but "I'm leaving this evil corporation to promote this other, even more evil corporation" is such a weird moral position.
 

Emelee

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If you have an underlying health condition or elderly and a virulent variant of Covid is prevalent in your society then yes it is very dangerous. If you don't fall in any of those categories the level of danger is less but still significantly higher than being vaccinated.

Those with underlying illnesses who care for their lives have most likely already gotten vaccinated. Most have likely also talked to their doctor regarding getting vaccinated with their condition.

As far as I have heard, Rogan invites people with "different opinions" and talks to them. I would assume his listeners are aware of this and aren't likely to agree with all idiots appearing on the show.

But IMO, even Hitler fans and Flat Earthers have a right to talk about why they feel like they do. If we censor everything, we won't know that these opinions are out there.

shut-up.jpg
 

Crimson

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As far as I have heard, Rogan invites people with "different opinions" and talks to them

Although I agree with you overall, it really should be stressed that Rogan isn't talking to random people with opinions; these aren't Facebook conspiracies about the vaccine being a Soros plot to reduce the population, or that the vaccine is injecting nanotech trackers into our bloodstream. He's talked to doctors and scientists with expertise in their fields, who deviate from the current (and constantly evolving) recommendations.
 
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