What if Ben Stivers . . .

[Toni]

Yes you could take it either way!

Even though as written Wes Parmalee was Jock Ewing, it wasn't actually confirmed or validated on the show. The viewers were fit to make their own minds up simply because of the fan backlash opposed to having Wes revealed as Jock, which was the original intention.

So Wes is Jock Ewing or isn't Jock Ewing simply because of the open ended resolution to the storyline.

However despite the open ended conclusion to the storyline the original intention of this storyline is quite clear, Wes Parmalee WAS Jock Ewing all along.

View attachment 39518

I wish they had left us viewers the decision about whether Donna Dread was Miss Ellie or not... Maybe Clayton had become short-sighted and the family didn´t want to embarrass him...

"Oh Ellie darling, I didn´t know you liked
to dress in red. A bit whore-ish, isn´t it?"​

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

I believe in the fact that the X rays matched. So if you want to take that as being self evident that's fine.

You've now convinced me -- for the first time -- that Stivers/Parmalee was a faker.

 

[Luke_Krebbs_Ewing]

You've now convinced me -- for the first time -- that Stivers/Parmalee was a faker.

If you think he's a fake that's fine.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

If you think he's a fake that's fine.

But you're the one who's convinced me. Good work! :hats:

 

[Luke_Krebbs_Ewing]

But you're the one who's convinced me. Good work! :hats:

I'm delighted for you!

Don't choke on whatever drink you've got!

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

I'm delighted for you!

Don't choke on whatever drink you've got!

Your goal is clear: you're trying to trick us into thinking Wes/Ben/Parmalee/Stivers somehow is a faker by alienating his fanbase with your excess.... Who's paying you to do this?

 

[Luke_Krebbs_Ewing]

Your goal is clear: you're trying to trick us into thinking Wes/Ben/Parmalee/Stivers somehow is a faker by alienating his fanbase with your excess.... Who's paying you to do this?

If I told you it was Jeremy Wendell would you believe me!?!

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

If I told you it was Jeremy Wendell would you believe me!?!

I might. I always knew he faked his own imprisonment.

 

[Luke_Krebbs_Ewing]

I might. I always knew he faked his own imprisonment.

Actually it wasn't Wendell.

I can't actually tell you who it was only that I received information contained in a codicil of this person's will regarding the validity of Wes Parmalee's identity.

I won't betray her identity but suffice to say she was my grandmother.

 

[Snowcat]

They were far from identical. Wes apparently had breaks in the same places - plus many others. After being banged up so much, the idea that some of his breaks might have matched Jock's doesn't strike me as being all that farfetched.

It wasn’t just the fracture in the ribs. they both had bullet wounds in the same place

 

[Luke_Krebbs_Ewing]

It wasn’t just the fracture in the ribs. they both had bullet wounds in the same place

So what are the odds of two different men having the same bullet wounds as well as virtually identical X rays? I would think that would be near impossible.

Let's just face it everyone, Wes Parmalee had to have been Jock Ewing all along.

 

[Toni]

So what are the odds of two different men having the same bullet wounds as well as virtually identical X rays? I would think that would be near impossible.

Let's just face it everyone, Wes Parmalee had to have been Jock Ewing all along.

Oh Via Via... When will you take your meds....?

 

[Luke_Krebbs_Ewing]

Oh Via Via... When will you take your meds....?

Just getting them now.

One part Gin, One part Yodka, three parts white lemonade with a Parasol & a cherry!

The cherry makes me think of Peter Richards!

 

[Taylor Bennett Jr.]

at this point I’m pretty convinced that both Ben Stivers and Wes Parmalee were Jock. What I’m less sure of is that Ben and Wes were the same person as each other.

 

[Luke_Krebbs_Ewing]

at this point I’m pretty convinced that both Ben Stivers and Wes Parmalee were Jock. What I’m less sure of is that Ben and Wes were the same person as each other.

They were both different characters played by the same actor with the intention of that character being revealed to really be Jock Ewing.

Ben was introduced already with white hair but Wes Parmalee's hair was noticeably a darker colour. Still played by Steve Forrest perhaps it was done deliberately to differentiate the Wes character from the earlier Ben character and possibly to help conceal the fact that it was actually the same actor from the previous season.

 

[the-lost-son]

I think this discussion is giving Leonard Katzman at that time too much credit. Any longterm planning at this stage is very unlikely (imo). Decisions seem more and more to be made in passing.

Allow me to elaborate:
The previous dream season had many faults (international focus etc.), but they didn't drop any storylines because they did not know what to do with them anymore. Even the whole Marinos storyline (which I disliked) had an arc of suspense which culminated in the season's finale. That's why I regard it as granted that Ben Stivers would have turned out to be Jock (with Capice in charge and Duffy still out of the picture).
In a series like Dallas, which is supposed to feel like a saga, longterm planning should dominate. That's why the loss of Ewing Oil in the season's finale for example feels like a storyline coming full circle.
Interestingly season 9 (dvd 10) started and ended with two unsatisfyingly written storylines. Granted, for the first one (Bobby's return) Katzman didn't have much time, but for the 2nd (Pam's exit) the writing was very poor.
In between we got the Wes Parmalee storyline. I disliked the initial writing there because they didn't even bother to change anything - again we get a suspicous ranch foreman hanging around the Southfork living room, staring at pictures, something we have witnessed the last 4-5 episodes. It's beyond me why they gave him a new hair colour and a different name.

Back to your topic:
I don't "think" that Katzman intended making Parmalee Jock. In order to make it captivating (which it was) we got all the lie detectots, x-rays, etc. I had no problem that they left the storyline ambiguous, but they just dropped it, never mentioned it again and just forgot about it.
Katzman probably discovered a week prior that Steve Forest is not available anymore (during his Gunsmoke movie). If you have to drop it, at least don't plant seeds insinuating to continue the storyline. I hated it that Clayton threatened to kill him and everything is forgotten after two weeks like nothing happened.

But that requires longterm planning.

 

[Luke_Krebbs_Ewing]

I think this discussion is giving Leonard Katzman at that time too much credit. Any longterm planning at this stage is very unlikely (imo). Decisions seem more and more to be made in passing.

Allow me to elaborate:
The previous dream season had many faults (international focus etc.), but they didn't drop any storylines because they did not know what to do with them anymore. Even the whole Marinos storyline (which I disliked) had an arc of suspense which culminated in the season's finale. That's why I regard it as granted that Ben Stivers would have turned out to be Jock (with Capice in charge and Duffy still out of the picture).
In a series like Dallas, which is supposed to feel like a saga, longterm planning should dominate. That's why the loss of Ewing Oil in the season's finale for example feels like a storyline coming full circle.
Interestingly season 9 (dvd 10) started and ended with two unsatisfyingly written storylines. Granted, for the first one (Bobby's return) Katzman didn't have much time, but for the 2nd (Pam's exit) the writing was very poor.
In between we got the Wes Parmalee storyline. I disliked the initial writing there because they didn't even bother to change anything - again we get a suspicous ranch foreman hanging around the Southfork living room, staring at pictures, something we have witnessed the last 4-5 episodes. It's beyond me why they gave him a new hair colour and a different name.

Back to your topic:
I don't "think" that Katzman intended making Parmalee Jock. In order to make it captivating (which it was) we got all the lie detectots, x-rays, etc. I had no problem that they left the storyline ambiguous, but they just dropped it, never mentioned it again and just forgot about it.
Katzman probably discovered a week prior that Steve Forest is not available anymore (during his Gunsmoke movie). If you have to drop it, at least don't plant seeds insinuating to continue the storyline. I hated it that Clayton threatened to kill him and everything isxforgotten aftwr two qeeks like nothing happened.

But that requires longterm planning.

Season ten was a good season but the resolution to the Wes Parmalee Jock Ewing storyline was weak and poorly done.

It will always be a bone of contention if Wes really was Jock or not because we never get a definitive resolution to this storyline in the show. All we have is the evidence presented that he could be Jock, it depends what you believe from the episodes themselves because of the ambiguous lame ending.

As for the belief that Katzman never intended Wes to be Jock, well it's certainly possible but if that is the case why did they go so far as to infer virtually identical X rays to Jock which also showed identical bullet wounding on the X rays?

Wes was written as being Jock but the storyline wasn't received well which is why it was quickly pulled mid season.

I've heard various sources quoting that Katzman missed the dynamic that the show had when Jim Davis played Jock. Maybe that's what Katzman was going for, a believable recast of the Ewing patriarch. Maybe we'll never know the exact story but one thing I will always appreciate is just how great this storyline was. Steve Forrest was terrific in the role and his scenes with Barbara Bel Geddes are TV gold.

 

[the-lost-son]

Obviously we will never "know". At this point Katzman was brought back as the saviour of Dallas with maximal powers.
If there was any backlash from the public to bring Jock back, it could only have stemed from the dream season. Otherwise the timeframe just doesn't add up. The episodes have been shot weigh in advance to make any changes including the B-B-Q episode which ended the wes parmalee storyline.
I highly doubt they had any test screenings back then or Katzman listened to the public opinion. If that had been the case they would have put more effort in the dream solution for example or later in Pam's exit. Lorimar didn't interefere either. They brought Katzman back stating his agenda what he wanted to fix (more male-driven show, less international focus etc., no more intereference from Capice) with full power.

Season 9 (DVD10) was alright for me, but the campy tone started to take over. If you want to drop a storyline, don't do it off-screen which they did. (Falcon Crest did sth. similar with the character of Simon MacCorkindale. They couldn't agree on a new contract, so he was written out for the following season despite gaving an open storyline. They didn't ask him to appear for one more episode to wrap it up either.) If this storyline had been so unpopular, then it would have been highly unlikely to insinuate the continuazion of it (Clayton's threat).

Again, the amount of time and text we all put into this thread outweighs the care Katzman put into that. According to Karry Hagma, Katzman left in the 1st place because he couldn't take Capice's (bleep) anymore. (Barbara Curran'd book).
With both of them on board, I highly doubt they would have wrapped it up as unceremoniously as they did.

 

[Seaviewer]

It wasn’t just the fracture in the ribs. they both had bullet wounds in the same place

I don't remember the bullet wounds. Something to listen out for when that comes up in my rewatch.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

The plotline only works with the ambiguity.

If we found out for sure that Wes was really Jock, then the mysterious and enigmatic plot is rendered just a stupid soapy plot.

It might work on DYNASTY or daytime shows, but not on DALLAS.