Mustard
Telly Talk TV Fanatic
It was far worse in the 1986-87 season than any other.
Katzman’s treatment of Susan, Jennilee and Dack
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Dack Rambo was brought on to replace Patrick Duffy. Once Duffy was back, Rambo was no longer needed. And Phil Capice killed off Jamie (Jenilee Harrison) in his last episode .
Snarky Oracle!
Telly Talk Supreme
It's interesting, the "man show"/"woman show" debate. Katzman sneeringly called DYNASTY and DALLAS (the year he wasn't there, which became the dream season) "a woman's show."
He was right, actually. But what is a woman's show? I would argue that KNOTS LANDING, with the strongest female cast on TV, was not a "woman's show." And why not? Simply because the writing and the characterizations are valid and well-executed -- and that eliminates the derisive "woman's show" label (or should).
What made DALLAS' dream season so much like DYNASTY was not really the hyperbolic fashions but the maudlin, sticky, essentially dishonest emotions and slippery plotlines that basically go nowhere because everything is designed to "present" or even flatter the women in some odd way, and that presentation and flattery supersedes the need for coherent storylines.
KNOTS didn't do that. Most of DYNASTY and dream season DALLAS absolutely did.
Was DALLAS' Season 10 loaded down with "sexism"? I'd argue that the reflection of sexism isn't the same thing... Cliff's misogyny was fully evident that year, but is it sexist to reflect sexism in a character? The irony is that nothing's ever more misogynistic than a de facto "woman's show" where, like the dream season and most of DYNASTY, there's a big pretension, lots of pomp and circumstance, surrounding Women in Power, yet those women actually become far more incompetent.
Such was the case with Season 9 versus Season 10 of DALLAS. The dream season pretended prissily that they were making the women 'stronger,' but those women largely turned out to not know what they were doing; in Season 10, when the show reverted to being "a man's show" the women suddenly became more competent, if only because the writing was more fluid and forward-thrust.
Sure, Pam got a bit whiney at home because her husband was having a baby with another woman, but at the office, she handled things far more efficiently than her window-dressing "bring-me-a-cup-of-herbal-tea" charade at Ewing Oil when Bobby was ostensibly dead.
But a woman's show merely portrays women "being important" where the sexism of men like Cliff and JR are righteously vanquished as those men bow obsequiously -- even though that's not how the real world works at all.
Admittedly, once Paulsen left in 1988, and he seemed to be more about balance than anything, the remaining three years (with Katzman only) DALLAS slipped into something akin to a woman's show: there were plenty of pistol-packin' mamas in cut-offs and perm-frightened blonde hair, but the core female characters were not-so-discretely written out.
"A woman's show" is not only an insult, but it should be. And as KNOTS showed us, a woman-dominant program doesn't have to be that. And thank goddess.
I think I may go repeat this post in a new thread, just because it's an interesting topic (which I'm sure we've done before, but what the heck)...
He was right, actually. But what is a woman's show? I would argue that KNOTS LANDING, with the strongest female cast on TV, was not a "woman's show." And why not? Simply because the writing and the characterizations are valid and well-executed -- and that eliminates the derisive "woman's show" label (or should).
What made DALLAS' dream season so much like DYNASTY was not really the hyperbolic fashions but the maudlin, sticky, essentially dishonest emotions and slippery plotlines that basically go nowhere because everything is designed to "present" or even flatter the women in some odd way, and that presentation and flattery supersedes the need for coherent storylines.
KNOTS didn't do that. Most of DYNASTY and dream season DALLAS absolutely did.
Was DALLAS' Season 10 loaded down with "sexism"? I'd argue that the reflection of sexism isn't the same thing... Cliff's misogyny was fully evident that year, but is it sexist to reflect sexism in a character? The irony is that nothing's ever more misogynistic than a de facto "woman's show" where, like the dream season and most of DYNASTY, there's a big pretension, lots of pomp and circumstance, surrounding Women in Power, yet those women actually become far more incompetent.
Such was the case with Season 9 versus Season 10 of DALLAS. The dream season pretended prissily that they were making the women 'stronger,' but those women largely turned out to not know what they were doing; in Season 10, when the show reverted to being "a man's show" the women suddenly became more competent, if only because the writing was more fluid and forward-thrust.
Sure, Pam got a bit whiney at home because her husband was having a baby with another woman, but at the office, she handled things far more efficiently than her window-dressing "bring-me-a-cup-of-herbal-tea" charade at Ewing Oil when Bobby was ostensibly dead.
But a woman's show merely portrays women "being important" where the sexism of men like Cliff and JR are righteously vanquished as those men bow obsequiously -- even though that's not how the real world works at all.
Admittedly, once Paulsen left in 1988, and he seemed to be more about balance than anything, the remaining three years (with Katzman only) DALLAS slipped into something akin to a woman's show: there were plenty of pistol-packin' mamas in cut-offs and perm-frightened blonde hair, but the core female characters were not-so-discretely written out.
"A woman's show" is not only an insult, but it should be. And as KNOTS showed us, a woman-dominant program doesn't have to be that. And thank goddess.
I think I may go repeat this post in a new thread, just because it's an interesting topic (which I'm sure we've done before, but what the heck)...
Mustard
Telly Talk TV Fanatic
I'm pretty sure that David Paulsen called Knots Landing a "women's show" and Dallas a "men's show" when talking about the whole Patrick Duffy/Bobby Ewing/Dream stuff. It seems characters like Angelica Nero on Dallas, Abby Ewing on Knots Landing, Sable Colby on The Colbys and Alexis Colby on Dynasty were annoying some of the (pro-Katzman) Dallas brass at that time.
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Chase Gioberti
Telly Talk Fan
I was just thinking this very thing.
We met Sue Ellen’s family. Pam’s family. Afton’s family. Valene’s family. Not a thing about Donna. Did she have living parents or siblings? Where did she grow up? What college did she attend?
Snarky Oracle!
Telly Talk Supreme
Donna's parents were killed in a car accident. She met Bobby in college; she was a couple of years ahead of him in school.
Snarky Oracle!
Telly Talk Supreme
Paulsen probably did say that, in that DALLAS was obviously male-dominated and KNOTS not so much. Not everybody uses the "woman's show" smear in the same way -- and not always as a smear. Katzman indeed meant it as a smear, and in the context that he used it, I have to agree with it.
Am I making an ovular argument?
Mustard
Telly Talk TV Fanatic
It would never have occurred to me to refer to these soaps in gender terms.
You’re the Wes Permalee story - love it or hate it- is one of the most discussed plot lines of the entire series
Me either. the men are clearly chauvinistic, but the women were equally contributing to the success of the show
Luke_Krebbs_Ewing
Telly Talk Champion
DallasFanForever
Telly Talk Supreme
I hear he disappeared after a helicopter crash in the jungles of South AmericaYeah I blame that @Via_The_Void for that too.
I wonder what ever happened to him!
Luke_Krebbs_Ewing
Telly Talk Champion
I wouldn't put it past him for him to come back after a while with a different name!