Did Ray really need to be Jock's son?

[Mustard]

So in all the years Ray worked for Jock I’m supposed to believe that Jock was never once told Ray’s mother’s maiden name?

Jock always knew that Margaret Hunter was Ray's mother. What Jock didn't know was that he was Ray's father. Margaret got married to Amos Krebbs when she got back to the US (Emporia, Kansas), and gave birth to Ray. Amos left them when Ray was 3. Margaret was then terminally ill when Ray was 15, which is when she got in touch with Jock and sent Ray off to Southfork with a letter to give to Jock.

In 1945, while Margaret got married to Amos Krebbs in Emporia, Jock some time after had to tell Miss Ellie at Southfork that he had an affair with a US army nurse (i.e. Margaret) while he was in Britain/Netherlands. Gary was already a toddler/young child by this point, used to his mother's love and now in comes the harsher father. J.R., on the contrary, after pining after his dad for years, is delighted at his dad's return.

And Ray's aunt Lillian Trotter (nee Hunter), is Margaret's sister.

Why would Margaret even send her teenage son to Jock if she wasn’t going to tell him he was his father?

Because she was dying, and was a single mother from 1948-1960.

Did she not want Ray to ever know the truth for some reason?

I never understood this part of the story.

It was 1960, in Kansas and Texas. The scandal then about unmarried and single mothers was bad enough, especially in those parts of the US.

 

[Taylor Bennett Jr.]

I think it’s kind of unfortunate that Steve wasn’t quite as imposing physically as Jock, especially as Jock would have been at Ray’s age. As I alluded to earlier in the thread, I think it would have been interesting if Ray had leaned into the “tough guy alpha male cowboy” side of things rather than “insecure wannabe business tycoon” - more like Rip from Yellowstone to use a current reference. Imagine the potential conflict if Ray actually considered himself superior to JR - Jock’s true heir.

The character could have represented that aspect of Jock, in strong contrast to JR. It didn’t help that Bobby was portrayed as at least Ray’s physical equal (with Patrick being flat-out bigger and brawnier than Steve), and had represented Jock’s “hot-tempered brawler” side from the very first episode.

(heh, the Lucy/Ray thing would look realllly quaint and harmless next to “Rip finds out he’s John Dutton’s son”, if you’ve followed that show at all)

 

[Billy Wall]

The character could have represented that aspect of Jock, in strong contrast to JR. It didn’t help that Bobby was portrayed as at least Ray’s physical equal (with Patrick being flat-out bigger and brawnier than Steve), and had represented Jock’s “hot-tempered brawler” side from the very first episode.

Good points. They really went out of their way in making Bobby virtually perfect. At one point, I believe they even claimed that Bobby was one of the best rodeo cowboys in the state.

You don't have to look imposing to be able to handle yourself in a scrap, but Ray should have been a better overall fighter than office man JR and even college boy Bobby. But of course, no one is tougher than a Ewing.

 

[Taylor Bennett Jr.]

Good points. They really went out of their way in making Bobby virtually perfect. At one point, I believe they even claimed that Bobby was one of the best rodeo cowboys in the state.

You don't have to look imposing to be able to handle yourself in a scrap, but Ray should have been a better overall fighter than office man JR and even college boy Bobby. But of course, no one is tougher than a Ewing.

I think it was *country*! Preposterous!

For sure you can be smaller and still imposing, but being big sure helps, and I’m not sure Steve had the presence to pull that off. Maybe it was the writing, but I felt he was better at playing vulnerable than imposing. He comes across (to me, anyway) like a little kid trying to act tough in the (many, many) scenes when he starts to threaten violence with righteous indignation. Kind of “scrunch up face, try to deepen voice, ball up fists”, etc.

Pacino, DeNiro, Stallone, Swayze, Charles Bronson, etc. could pull it off without the physical stature, but those guys had massive presence and charisma and/or fitness, so they could get away with being like half the size of John Wayne, Eastwood, Jock-era Jim Davis, etc.

But of course, no one is tougher than a Ewing.

hell, they even had JR prevail over Ray in a near-literal fight to the death (via fortunately-located telephone receiver - but still, nowhere close to saving face for Ray!)

 

[LMLDallas78]

Bobby was portrayed as at least Ray’s physical equal (with Patrick being flat-out bigger and brawnier than Steve

I feel they have very similar physiques but Ray just didn't have the same presence as Bobby.

Ray didn't hold himself in the same way Bobby did.

Similar looks going on here though!

 

[Luke_Krebbs_Ewing]

I liked him being Jock's son a lot and it was nice seeing Ray being torn up inside when Jock's chopper crashed and everyone had to come to terms with his death.

I didn't mind that he had insecurities but the writers continued to push those insecurities down our throats at every opportunity. It gets frustrating after a while when it's the same storyline rehashed over and over again.

I didn't like him with Jenna because after Donna's departure Ray turned into a rather bland character and at this point Priscilla Presley's version of Jenna was also very bland too. The storylines they gave Ray and Jenna during and after season ten were just awful. Especially when Charlie had gone into full on brat mode!

The only saving grace in season ten was Ray's friendship with Wes Parmalee. I think this helped to give a closure to Ray's feelings about his Father.

Ray was a good character who sadly lost his way in the shows later seasons but then he wasn't the only one, look what the writers did to JR by the series close.

 

[LMLDallas78]

vulnerable than imposing. He comes across (to me, anyway) like a little kid trying to act tough

Great analogy, sums up Ray perfectly.

Even with his soft whispery voice Bobby "appeared" much tougher.

Ray was still good for a brawl though and not scared to get involved, unlike his half brother JR.

 

[Mustard]

hell, they even had JR prevail over Ray in a near-literal fight to the death (via fortunately-located telephone receiver - but still, nowhere close to saving face for Ray!)

J.R. will fight well when his life is actually at stake.

 

[Billy Wall]

J.R. will fight well when his life is actually at stake.

When? The only time JR really got beat up was when he was getting punched by Bobby. The one other serious fight, besides the Ray fight, is when Bobby tried to drown him in the pool. It took Clayton and Ray to pull Bobby off of him.

 

[Rove]

If Jim Davis had not passed away I suspect the character of Ray would have diminished over time. With Jock's passing suddenly there was something to write for Ray.

 

[Billy Wall]

If Jim Davis had not passed away I suspect the character of Ray would have diminished over time. With Jock's passing suddenly there was something to write for Ray.

After the newness of Ray being Jock's son has worn off, it would have been interesting to see Jock treat Ray like his other sons.

 

[darkshadows38]

if i recall he was going to leave the show Steve Kanely i mean or however you spell his last name? anyways if i recall they pretty much wrote that in to keep in on the show at least that's how i've also thought that was the reason. and Jim Davis i think? didn't want him to leave either at least that's how it feels to me when i hear that story on why he stayed.

 

[DallasFanForever]

Jock always knew that Margaret Hunter was Ray's mother. What Jock didn't know was that he was Ray's father.

Thanks for clarifying, but that’s the part I’m having trouble with. If he always knew she was the mother and he knew when Ray was born then he had to wonder if he himself was the father. He did say to Ray that he probably always knew it but still, I’m just surprised he never thought about finding out sooner. A little naive on Jock’s part in my opinion.

Because she was dying, and was a single mother from 1948-1960.

I guess I just look at it from the point of view that if she was dying then all the more reason to tell her son the truth. Not necessarily a secret I’d take to the grave but perhaps she figured he and Jock would eventually figure it out on their own.

It was 1960, in Kansas and Texas. The scandal then about unmarried and single mothers was bad enough, especially in those parts of the US.

Of course, back then these things were much more complicated. But she could’ve at least told her son the truth and asked him to keep it between them until she was gone. After that the scandal for her obviously doesn’t matter anymore.

 

[Mustard]

Thanks for clarifying, but that’s the part I’m having trouble with. If he always knew she was the mother and he knew when Ray was born

Margaret was married to Amos by the time that Ray was born in 1945. Jock might not have known about Margaret having a child until much later, perhaps as late as 1960, around the time when Ray arrived at Southfork. And he was Ray Krebbs, with Margaret's one-time husband being Amos Krebbs.

then he had to wonder if he himself was the father. He did say to Ray that he probably always knew it but still, I’m just surprised he never thought about finding out sooner. A little naive on Jock’s part in my opinion.

Perhaps Jock might have felt the possibility of it, but why voice it out loud in those days? He was married to Miss Ellie, with J.R., Gary and Bobby as their children, and Jock has no idea how Ray would take it even if he did raise it. However, Jock did look a bit shocked when Amos told him, so if he did ever suspect, then he must have buried it pretty deep inside himself.

I guess I just look at it from the point of view that if she was dying then all the more reason to tell her son the truth. Not necessarily a secret I’d take to the grave but perhaps she figured he and Jock would eventually figure it out on their own.

Of course, back then these things were much more complicated. But she could’ve at least told her son the truth and asked him to keep it between them until she was gone. After that the scandal for her obviously doesn’t matter anymore.

Doesn't matter for Margaret, perhaps, but what about for Ray? Even in 1982 or so (some 22 years later), when Ray goes back to Emporia, Kansas, with his wife Donna, to see his Aunt Lil (and his cousin Mickey), Ray is a bit nervous about it getting out in Emporia that Jock Ewing is his father.

Of course, in the last 2-3 decades, nobody would really care much about this sort of thing, but it was a bit different before that.

 

[Taylor Bennett Jr.]

When? The only time JR really got beat up was when he was getting punched by Bobby. The one other serious fight, besides the Ray fight, is when Bobby tried to drown him in the pool. It took Clayton and Ray to pull Bobby off of him.

Nicholas Pierce! But then, even Sue Ellen forgot about that guy and his tremendous hair and sweaters almost before the body was scraped off the sidewalk..

It makes sense that JR might handle himself better than expected - after all, Jock was the type of father who would have taught his sons how to throw a punch, etc.. But fighting off Ray (considerably younger, functional strength from years of physical labor, lots of saloon brawls over the years), then Nicholas (at least 15 years younger, probably 20 in real life, physically fit, literally an ex-mobster)?

That’s magical Ewing plot armor!

If he always knew she was the mother and he knew when Ray was born then he had to wonder if he himself was the father.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Margaret misled people as much as possible about Ray’s birthday, even Ray himself, so that it appeared that he’d been conceived in Kansas, not overseas.

now that I think of it, maybe *that* explains Ray’s inexplicable decision to abandon Braddock for Europe - he subconsciously yearned to be closer to his true homeland!

 

[DallasFanForever]

now that I think of it, maybe *that* explains Ray’s inexplicable decision to abandon Braddock for Europe - he subconsciously yearned to be closer to his true homeland!

Which is odd considering they use forks and knives over there. Not exactly what Ray was used to.

 

[lbf522]

What I did not like was Ray acting like a mindless hothead like Bobby as well as a hypocrite.

 

[Mustard]

What I did not like was Ray acting like a mindless hothead like Bobby as well as a hypocrite.

The worst hypocrisy that Ray did was when he was freaking out about Charlie acting like a teenager and her having a boyfriend. This from the man who was having a taboo fling with a teenage Lucy. Massive hypocrisy.

 

[Taylor Bennett Jr.]

The worst hypocrisy that Ray did was when he was freaking out about Charlie acting like a teenager and her having a boyfriend. This from the man who was having a taboo fling with a teenage Lucy. Massive hypocrisy.

absolutely! Right up there with freaking out and trying to kill JR (for the first time) and making him an enemy for life over Garnet McGee (who was going to dump him anyway).. when Ray had slept with JR’s *wife* just weeks prior!

I feel they have very similar physiques but Ray just didn't have the same presence as Bobby.

Ray didn't hold himself in the same way Bobby did.

Similar looks going on here though!

View attachment 49577

yep, it’s not like Ray was a small guy, he just didn’t carry it like Jock or Bobby. Jock was a bit taller and rangier (quite big for his generation), and Bobby was maybe an inch taller and had a good 10-20 pounds of “gym muscle” on Ray depending on the season.

I kind of felt for Steve sometimes, having to do the “shirtless wood chopping” scenes so often. Not that his physique was bad at all, but I didn’t think he was the “eye candy” or “hunk” type like Patrick, young Peter Richards, John Beck, Nicholas Pierce, etc.

 

[LMLDallas78]

This from the man who was having a taboo fling with a teenage Lucy.

Well that's probably why he did behave like a hypocrite because it's what he did.
Christ if he'd acted like like his Daddy Jock he would have been totally oblivious!

No one wanted baby Charlies.