Mary Tyler Moore Show and Its Spin-Offs

Snarky Oracle!

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Gosh. Based on its reputation and popularity I'd been going on the assumption it was regularly #1. But I suppose it was a fairly competitive time in the TV industry.

It was indeed. The early-'70s was regarded as the golden age of sitcom, where the genre became socially important. ALL IN THE FAMILY was #1 from 1971 to 1976. MARY was often in the Top Ten, and was the most critically-acclaimed comedy of the decade. Plus, there was an aliveness about the show which stood in contrast to the other series which preceded it of ran concurrently. So everybody was aware of the program even if they didn't always watch it.

But there were some years it wasn't always even in the Top 20, especially after CBS moved AITF away from Saturday nights in 1975.
 

Crimson

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This is truly fascinating, and would have made for a very different latter half of the series.

And likely not for the better. Superficial elements of its era aside, MTM has aged very well since it focused on universal elements of friends and colleagues. An office romance, circa the mid-70s, is unlikely to have aged as well. I recently started rewatching NEWSRADIO (1995-1999), a very funny show, but its recurring stories about a romance between a boss and a subordinate, even entirely consensual, is kind of icky.

Not that I'm overly familiar with Johnny Carson anyway. Certainly not familiar enough to tell an impersonator from the real thing.

Come to think of it, I'm in the same boat. I don't recall ever watching THE TONIGHT SHOW unless Joan Rivers was the guest host. I'm not sure I'd be able to pick out an audio of Carson versus Rich Little as Carson.
 

Mel O'Drama

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Mary Tyler Moore
Season Seven
The Last Show



There were three key things I knew about this episode ahead of time. Firstly, that almost all the characters would be out of a job (I mistakenly thought the station itself would close down, rather than everyone getting sacked as part of an overhaul). Secondly, I knew that Rhoda and Phyllis would return (another error in my mind here. Having seen a still image of their scene with the view from Mary’s apartment in the background, I thought the scene took place on an outside balcony somewhere). And finally I knew there was a group hug which at some point became a group shuffle (for tissues, as it turned out, not to answer the phone as I’d thought).

None of this spoilt my viewing. If anything, being aware of some of the episode’s beats and iconography meant I could relax into it and enjoy seeing those things in context.

Ted remaining was a surprise. It’s characteristic enough, so perhaps it shouldn’t be, but perhaps it’s enough to know that he’ll miss his colleagues and it’s certain he won’t have as much fun in the new regime. One could almost believe this was setting up a Ted-centric spinoff, and I’m glad this isn’t the case.

Rhoda and Phyllis’s return was really nice. I was surprised it was essentially one fairly small scene, but then there’s a lot of story to tell here, and only twenty five minutes to do so. Incidentally, I had wondered if this would be a double-length episode. They may have been less of a thing at this time, but Rhoda’s wedding proves it wasn’t unheard of for special occasions.

The tear-filled goodbye gave some of the actors the chance to flex a dramatic muscle or two, and it was easy in this moment to imagine what a dramatic Lou Grant series might look like.

I know the point was that Ted had chosen the most random song lyrics imaginable. All the same I found myself wishing there was something series-related in the lyrics to It’s A Long Way To Tipperary which would make it more meaningful other than everyone singing it. Then I read that there was a parody written during the First World War called… It’s The Wrong, Wrong Way To Tickle Mary. I like to think this was included with that knowledge and some deliberation.

The final moments were perfection. If I’d subconsciously pictured anything for the last moments, it’s Mary’s poignant last look at the newsroom before she switches off the light. It felt so right that I could almost have sworn I’d seen it before (and I probably have, in later series that were inspired by this very moment).

And just when I thought there was enough closure, along came the curtain call I never knew I needed to see, complete with a good look at the studio audience. It's the perfect way to ease the viewer out of the series and back into the real world, and a really lovely touch.

According to Wikipedia, this is the only episode in which all eight main characters appear (with the curtain call their only appearance all together). This is quite shocking to me, since all were on the series for Season Four, but then Sue Ann, Phyllis and Georgia would have been recurring players then, and probably alternated accordingly.

Another surprise is learning this episode was transmitted in Canada a day before it debuted in the US.

One thing I’ve neglected to mention during Season Seven: I really like this year’s arrangement of the theme. It’s a little softer and less brassy, while still being jazzy enough.

And after eight months’ viewing, that’s it for me and MTM, but I still have thirty seven episodes of Rhoda awaiting. And after this I aim to return to the boxset to round things off with some MTM bonus material.


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Crimson

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The Last Show

While I look forward to your thoughts on the last of RHODA and, possibly one day circling back to LOU GRANT, this brings us full circle. I think this all kicked off in the MAUDE thread and specifically the final episode of that series. There, I noted I am not necessarily a fan of shows that wrap things up. I generally prefer shows that just end. (Since I often quit shows long before their conclusions, this is a gift I give myself.) I like to think that Lucy & Ricky or Rob & Laurie just went about their misadventures and we, the audience, were just no longer privy to them.

But outside that preference, the ending to MTM is about as perfect as can be. Things wrap up, but not too tidily. Too many shows end with wish fulfillment, whereas every character improbably has their dreams fulfilled in the last 30 minutes; an artificial and contrived end cap. The finale of MTM is conclusive but relatable and, despite the sadness, ends on a note of bittersweet optimism: Mary Richards is off to the next chapter in her life, circling back to the premise of the very first episode.

One could almost believe this was setting up a Ted-centric spinoff, and I’m glad this isn’t the case.

Ted Knight had been dissatisfied playing Ted Baxter for ages, even as the character was given some additional depth. I doubt he even considered continuing playing Ted. He went on to a self-named sitcom, not made by MTM Productions, about being a pimp; yeah, seriously. No surprise, it didn't last long.

MTM Productions did build a new show around Betty White (and Georgia Engel) but it was not about Sue Ann; the producers had learned from RHODA and PHYLLIS that it wasn't particularly easy to build a show around a fan-favorite supporting character. This show too didn't last long.

And after this I aim to return to the boxset to round things off with some MTM bonus material.

It may be included but, if not, I suggest you track down on Youtube the Oprah Winfrey interview with the entire cast (sans Knight who had passed). It's the closest to a reunion you will find. And, if it's included, I again suggest skipping the TV movie MARY & RHODA which is a disappointing bit of apocrypha that you're better off without.

And should you have any particular interest in the actress herself, BEING MARY TYLER MOORE (2023) was a very good documentary on her life.
 

Mel O'Drama

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Oh, I didn't know that either!

Every day's a school day on Telly Talk. ;)



this brings us full circle. I think this all kicked off in the MAUDE thread and specifically the final episode of that series.

And back then I wasn't planning to stay in US sitcom territory beyond Maude, yet here I am a short time later with MTM, Phyllis and most of Rhoda under my belt.





The finale of MTM is conclusive but relatable and, despite the sadness, ends on a note of bittersweet optimism: Mary Richards is off to the next chapter in her life, circling back to the premise of the very first episode.

Oh yes. Until I read this I hadn't drawn the parallels between Mary's situation in the first and last episodes. That's just boosted* the finale even more for me.



* I wrote "elevated" then couldn't bring myself to use it. Meghan Markle has killed that one for me.







He went on to a self-named sitcom, not made by MTM Productions, about being a pimp; yeah, seriously. No surprise, it didn't last long.

The mind boggles. And it looks like Wonder Woman's Joe Atkinson played Ted's relative (brother, I'm assuming).




MTM Productions did build a new show around Betty White (and Georgia Engel) but it was not about Sue Ann;

Well this thread is certainly keeping me busy on IMDb. The cast has certainly piqued my interest. Sheriff Brackett and Higgins.

It mentions Sue Ann's roommate is a ditzy blonde, which I assume is Georgia Engel recycling the same act. Was Betty's character in the same mold as Sue Ann, or did they go in a different direction?



t may be included but, if not, I suggest you track down on Youtube the Oprah Winfrey interview with the entire cast (sans Knight who had passed). It's the closest to a reunion you will find.

Thanks. The DVD cover doesn't mention it (unless it's covered by "And more!" ), but I can seek it out.




And, if it's included, I again suggest skipping the TV movie MARY & RHODA which is a disappointing bit of apocrypha that you're better off without.

Oh, I remember this getting mentioned before, and I have a mental note to skip that one.





And should you have any particular interest in the actress herself, BEING MARY TYLER MOORE (2023) was a very good documentary on her life.

And this is perfectly-timed because I ended up watching the trailer for this one just this morning. I'll keep an eye out for it streaming on a British station.
 

Crimson

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And back then I wasn't planning to stay in US sitcom territory beyond Maude, yet here I am a short time later with MTM, Phyllis and most of Rhoda under my belt.

I'm sure you never expected your venture into MAUDE to launch into another 326 episodes of unrelated American sitcoms. I've enjoyed your time with American comedies. I'm sure you have other shows you're eager to get to, but I hope you circle back to USA sitcoms again at some point.

It mentions Sue Ann's roommate is a ditzy blonde, which I assume is Georgia Engel recycling the same act. Was Betty's character in the same mold as Sue Ann, or did they go in a different direction?

I've never seen the show but, not surprisingly, every episode is on Youtube. I do believe both Betty and Georgia played relatively similar characters -- bitchy and ditzy, respectively. Betty would coast on the Sue Ann image for a few more years, until she reset her career playing Rose Nylund. Georgia was a pretty one-trick pony but she made a decent career out of it.
 
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Mel O'Drama

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I'm sure you never expected your venture into MAUDE to launch into another 326 episodes of unrelated American sitcoms.

Ye gods. Is that how many episodes the Maryverse comprises? That's a little mind-blowing.

It's probably good news that it hasn't felt anywhere near that many.




I've enjoyed your time with American comedies. I'm sure you have other shows you're eager to get to, but I hope you circle back to USA sitcoms again at some point.

Thanks. It's been fun for me and I'm sure I will find my way back to American sitcom land, whether it's discovering series I've missed or revisiting old favourites.





not surprisingly, every episode is on Youtube.

Oh crikey. I don't know if I even dare peek...





Betty would coast on the Sue Ann image for a few more years, until she reset her career playing Rose Nylund.


Much like Rue McClanahan, it's been fun for me to kind of discover her different screen personae in reverse.
 

Mel O'Drama

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Rhoda
Season Four
The Return Of Ida / The Job / Lady’s Choice




Usually I’d get a few more episodes under my belt before commenting, but yet again the new season has begun with changes, and based on my difficult re-engaging with the series I can’t help feeling this is the point at which the rot has really set in.

An actor or actress’s appearance isn’t usually I comment upon, but in this particular case the change is done with such intent and purpose that it calls attention to itself.

From Wikipedia:
For the fourth season, Rhoda re-emerged with a new, slimmer look. (Before the season started, Valerie Harper went on a liquid protein diet, which was quite controversial at the time, and dropped 40 pounds.)

It has to be said: Valerie Harper looks awful. It’s evident from the still photos which appear at the very top of the first two episodes’ opening titles (I don’t know who chose these, but it’s baffling they were used. Perhaps this mistake was evident almost immediately, since a different set of pictures is used for the third episode).

The first episode saw her wearing a top which appears to have been deliberately chosen because it’s almost thigh-length and so makes her appear even thinner. Throughout the episode she keeps rucking it down self-consciously. The unflattering shade of green draws attention to how grey her face is, and I found myself thinking this must be the makeup department attempting to conceal how unwell she looks. And things do look worse in the cold light of day, as evidenced by the new opening and closing titles.

It’s even more striking not only because she looked fine in the last MTM which I watched just 24 hours earlier, but also because of how gorgeous Valerie looked in the B-roll film which I suppose would have been perhaps three or four years earlier.

It was addressed en passant in dialogue, with Ida complaining that she could feel Rhoda's backbone sticking out, but that felt a little too meta to be comfortable. Ultimately, the new "look" remained so very distracting and unsettling I barely noticed anything else that was going on.

This would all be less bothersome if the series at this point was firing on all cylinders, but these initial episodes have seen the format reworked a little and not for the better.

In the first episode, Rhoda’s divorce was finalised, and it’s sad to see Joe cut out of the series for good (I might be misremembering, but I don’t think Joe’s name was even mentioned) in the episode. With glass half full, at least this does bring some closure for viewers (the prolonged separation even became an in-joke over on MTM’s final season where Mary casually mentioned receiving a letter from Rhoda who was “still waiting for Joe to come back”, to gales of laughter from the audience).

Balancing things out, Ida has returned. At risk of sounding like a line from the series itself, it does at least provide some small consolation (one of the best-delivered lines of the season so far, was Ida saying she was “up to here” with jokes about her height, as she raised her hand just above head height).

Then, in the second episode, Rhoda suddenly decided that window dressing was boring and decided to find a new job. And the place she decides to give the hard sell is a grungy little costume shop, run by a man who already has an assistant (which he doesn’t appear to need given the size of the operation). I just can’t buy it. It seems to have been randomly shoehorned in for no other reason than someone, somewhere thought they could get some cheap gags out of people dressed in “funny” costumes. This isn’t a place I want to spend time as a viewer, and Jack Doyle hasn’t exactly set the screen alight so far. It doesn’t bode well.

As before, Gary has become a character I enjoy as a supporting player, but I’m not sure about the sudden love triangle that’s sprung up with Gary and Benny vying for Brenda’s attention.
 

Crimson

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And this is perfectly-timed because I ended up watching the trailer for this one just this morning. I'll keep an eye out for it streaming on a British station.

If you can't find it elsewhere, the entire documentary is on Youtube split into two parts.

Oh crikey. I don't know if I even dare peek...

What's another 13 episodes, at this point ...

Much like Rue McClanahan, it's been fun for me to kind of discover her different screen personae in reverse.

It adds context to the original plan for Rue to play Rose and Betty to play Blanche; even more so if you've ever seen Betty on MAMA'S FAMILY, where she played a bitch with a heavy Southern accent.

It has to be said: Valerie Harper looks awful.
I think she lost even more weight after RHODA. There was concern about her "near anorexic" appearance in some of her post-RHODA roles.
 

Snarky Oracle!

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One thing I’ve neglected to mention during Season Seven: I really like this year’s arrangement of the theme. It’s a little softer and less brassy, while still being jazzy enough.

In my head, I've heard a three-level harmonizing, as performed by Sonny Curtis, for the Season 7 opening theme, for 49 years. I even recorded one -- I've still got the cassette somewhere in my house. It sounds great. Concluding with "Looks like you've made it after all!"

In fact, I can't not hear it whenever this instrumentation begins:

 
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Mel O'Drama

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440 if you count in Lou Grant, but that wasn't a sitcom I guess.

Oh yes. I forgot that Lou would need to be added onto the end to give the true total.

And Lou Grant would really add a significant amount in terms of broadcast hours for the entire franchise, since the episodes are twice as long as all the other series.




If you can't find it elsewhere, the entire documentary is on Youtube split into two parts.

Oh, this is weird. I've actually sought it out there a couple of times (including again after reading this) and can't find it.





What's another 13 episodes, at this point ...

I know. It's a drop in the ocean, all things considered. Perhaps I'll give it a spin.




It adds context to the original plan for Rue to play Rose and Betty to play Blanche; even more so if you've ever seen Betty on MAMA'S FAMILY, where she played a bitch with a heavy Southern accent.

While I've heard the name, I'm not familiar with Mama's Family. And I had no idea both Betty and Rue appeared. Rue's character is described as an "uncomfortable, uptight spinster", so I suppose that contrast between them made the original plan for The Golden Girls' casting even more logical.




I think she lost even more weight after RHODA. There was concern about her "near anorexic" appearance in some of her post-RHODA roles.

It seems Valerie's relationship with her weight has been fairly well-documented. As we've mentioned previously, there was no real sign of her ever being overweight as far as MTM and Rhoda goes, despite the script sometimes suggesting otherwise. She had great bone structure, and I think was stunning in earlier seasons. It's a shame she didn't seem to believe that.

Losing 15 or 20 kg in the space of a few months is never going to be good for the body, but it's especially punishing when one isn't overweight to begin with.




In my head, I've heard a three-level harmonizing, as performed by Sonny Curtis, for the Season 7 opening theme, for 49 years. I even recorded one -- I've still got the cassette somewhere in my house. It sounds great. Concluding with "Looks like you've made it after all!"

Oh yes - that lyric change would have brought the series full circle perfectly. They knew this was the last outing, so they should have done it.
 

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While I've heard the name, I'm not familiar with Mama's Family. And I had no idea both Betty and Rue appeared. Rue's character is described as an "uncomfortable, uptight spinster", so I suppose that contrast between them made the original plan for The Golden Girls' casting even more logical.
When they first produced Mama's Family for NBC, Betty White was an infrequent, recurring player whose character (Mama's snooty daughter Ellen) was mostly brought in for continuity. She'd played Ellen in several of the original Carol Burnett sketches. In contrast, Rue McClanahan's character (Mama's spinster sister Fran) was a principal character, but a new creation for the spin-off. Other than "Mama" (Vicki Lawrence, also from the original Carol Burnett Show) all of the principal characters were new creations, so having Betty drop in regularly (and Carol B's Eunice showing up occasionally) helped bridge the two series. But when the show got retooled for syndication Betty and Rue were no longer available. Ellen just quit dropping by, but they had to kill off Fran since she'd been a principal character.
 

Mel O'Drama

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Betty White was an infrequent, recurring player whose character (Mama's snooty daughter Ellen) was mostly brought in for continuity. She'd played Ellen in several of the original Carol Burnett sketches. In contrast, Rue McClanahan's character (Mama's spinster sister Fran) was a principal character, but a new creation for the spin-off.

Oh. I hadn't realised the concept had been part of Carol's show. That seems a good way to try some things and see what sticks.

It reminds me a little of how Edina and Saffy from AbFab were based on a sketch in the French & Saunders show (except, unlike Mama's Family, the final product was shaken up quite a bit to become a sitcom).



But when the show got retooled for syndication Betty and Rue were no longer available. Ellen just quit dropping by, but they had to kill off Fran since she'd been a principal character.

Yes, I noticed there were quite a few cast changes after the second season. And there was also a significant gap between Seasons Two and Three. Did the shift affect the tone or quality of the series?

I'm only marginally au fait with the syndication business. I understand the magic number is around a hundred, but thought this meant there were enough episodes for a re-run. Does "first run syndication" mean that a series is transmitted in a certain way once that suitable number of episodes has been ordered, and before they've all aired for the first time?
 

Crimson

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Oh, this is weird. I've actually sought it out there a couple of times (including again after reading this) and can't find it.

You are correct. There's a playlist on Youtube called "Being Mary Tyler Moore (2023) FULL MOVIE" which I assumed was, ya know, the full movie. Turns out it's unrelated documentaries with some flagrant false advertising.

Did the shift affect the tone or quality of the series?

Enormously. I suspect Daniel will have a very different opinion from mine, but the FAMILY comedies are of declining interest for me. I love the sketches, have moderate fondness for the first two seasons of the sitcom, and nearly zero interest in the rest.

The sketches are among the most scathingly bitter comedy ever put on American TV, surprising since Carol's show was mostly noted by a genial nuttiness.

 

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Oh, there was a lot of changes made to the characters in order to make Mama's Family a thing. In the CB sketches, these characters (Eunice, her husband Ed and her "mama") were thoroughly unlikeable and spent most of their time going out of their way to make each other miserable. The sketches were funny, but not in a pleasant, sitcom-y way. We got amusement from them insulting each other and tearing one another down; there was little to no "heart" behind the interactions. So in order to make a more traditional sitcom using those highly flawed characters....well, there had to be some major "smoothing over," mostly to the new lead/title character, who had been a supporting player in the sketches (Burnett's Eunice had been the main character on her show, obviously). So "mama" got a name (Thelma Harper) and her rough edges were smoothed over as the series progressed as @Crimson mentions. I felt this was a conceit to the idea that producers likely felt that a lead in a sitcom had to be likeable. As we saw in the AbFab example, this is not necessarily the case.

NBC produced two seasons of MF, then cancelled it. They re-ran the show at some point afterward and the reruns scored decent ratings, encouraging a syndicator to revive the cancelled series a few years later. Joe Hamilton, the producer behind it had been Carol's producer on the variety show and had been married to her. When they divorced he got "custody" of the intellectual property* of the series, so he resumed producer duties even if CB/Eunice was no longer going to guest-star for obvious reasons. It was likely this break between the Hamiltons that encouraged the further shift of the series away from that snippy, hateful tone of the original and toward typical slapstick comedy. The syndicated years were highly rated and financially successful from what I read, encouraging syndicators to revive other cancelled series to sell to TV stations directly rather than offering via networks. They only ended the show because contracts were up and some of the cast and crew wanted to move on, not because it fell in ratings.

* @Crimson will likely get a chuckle out of MF and the word "intellectual" being used in the same sentence. You're welcome.
 

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I felt this was a conceit to the idea that producers likely felt that a lead in a sitcom had to be likeable. As we saw in the AbFab example, this is not necessarily the case.

It would be a long time before American sitcoms were ready for "unlikable" characters. Dabney Coleman flopped a few times in the 80s trying to make that happen. Sketch comedy can play at a different pitch than a sitcom, which can pull off being broad but still needs some degree of relatability. The FAMILY sketches worked because they were relatively short and infrequent. 30 minutes of Eunice, Ed and Mama screaming at each other for 22 weeks would have been a headache. Even ABFAB rather turned into three harpies shrieking at each other

I think the first two seasons of the sitcom struck a good balance between the sketches and the needs of the sitcom format. The later seasons are sweet and goofy, which is fine, but as far removed from the original concept as the garish color HONEYMOONERS of the 60s were from that original premise.
 
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Mel O'Drama

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There's a playlist on Youtube called "Being Mary Tyler Moore (2023) FULL MOVIE" which I assumed was, ya know, the full movie. Turns out it's unrelated documentaries with some flagrant false advertising.

That one got me, too.



The sketches are among the most scathingly bitter comedy ever put on American TV, surprising since Carol's show was mostly noted by a genial nuttiness.

That bitterness comes across in the video you posted. I suppose deep-rooted sibling resentment and disappointment over being unappreciated in the family is always especially good for this.



The sketches were funny, but not in a pleasant, sitcom-y way. We got amusement from them insulting each other and tearing one another down; there was little to no "heart" behind the interactions. So in order to make a more traditional sitcom using those highly flawed characters....well, there had to be some major "smoothing over,"

That too came across strongly from the sketch above. As one of a series of sketches it would be fine, but because it felt loud and broad I'd find it exhausting to watch this in a half hour sitcom week after week. I can imagine a little toning down would have been a good thing for the series.




I felt this was a conceit to the idea that producers likely felt that a lead in a sitcom had to be likeable. As we saw in the AbFab example, this is not necessarily the case.
It would be a long time before American sitcoms were ready for "unlikable" characters. Dabney Coleman flopped a few times in the 80s trying to make that happen.

Yes, this seems to be something that, certainly at this time, distinguished American and British sitcoms.

Just this week, I've watched videos of a young Millennial American reacting to Fawlty Towers and Keeping Up Appearances. In both cases he commented surprise that the lead characters were so unlikeable (I think he spent half the Fawlty Towers episode waiting for the lead character to arrive, before realising he was already watching him).
 
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