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Back when we understood that white kitchens were evil:
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I somehow missed this.
John Amos' PIONEERS OF TELEVISION interview from about 15 years ago:
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Sonny Curtis, singer-songwriter of THE MARY TYLER MOORE SHOW theme, "Love is All Around," died on 19 September 2025 at age 88.
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So, I've been enjoying this thread, and read through many messages, but decided at like page 10 or so to jump ahead, and post my own thoughts on MTM. Hopefully I don't steal too many other posters ideas, or thoughts, since I skipped ahead, so apologies in advance, and I do plan on going back and reading the posts I skipped.
I enjoy all of the MTM show, with the first season possibly being my least favorite, just because I feel like the show was still finding itself. There is something appealing about the first year, but to me, it just wasn't quite that funny yet, and some of the characters were still being developed; so, they weren't necessarily written or played in the way I would come to appreciate. The 2nd season somehow feels like the first real season of MTM, the series I would come to know and love. Some of that might just be the change to the opening intro, but it's the overall feel of the show. The character development, or at least enough of it had formed. Mary was still the nice character we came to like the 1st season, but this "niceness" would slowly start to transition some in season 3, and continue throughout the series. I liked both versions of Mary, but she did become more sarcastic, which was funnier, and worked, but the wide eyed, somewhat innocent charm of her earlier years would be missed too. It seems like a pretty natural progression, though. She was seasoned by the world, and growing up.
The years without Rhoda work for me because I always enjoyed Mary's interactions with the newsroom most. They became her family(as Mary said herself in the final episode.) This was a single woman's family, and in a sense, a family for Mr. Grant after his divorce. They all just played so well among one another. That's not to take away from Mary and Rhoda because they had some hilarious and heartfelt antics as well. I guess I'm ok with just having 4 seasons of that, and then things progressing more to just WJM.
They could have tried to give us some new characters for Mary's neighbors when she moved, but outside of Penny Marshal being used minimally, no one else is really standing out. It's ok, though because the show didn't really need new characters to fill the void of Rhoda, and or Phyllis, when they had such talent as they did still left. That said, Georgette was fine as Ted's girlfriend/wife, but if she was intended to take the place of Rhoda, which it kind of seems, at least to an extent, that was not going to happen, and I'm glad they didn't really push too hard for Mary and Georgette to be besties. It could have worked had they tried to add a new character or two at Mary's new apartment, or even someone new in the newsroom, but then it could have failed miserably as well; so, I'm kind of glad they didn't tarnish the show by mixing things up that way. I'm also glad, if Georgette was meant to be Mary's new Rhoda, that this wasn't overly blatant. I feel like they played their cards well, and the show managed to be pretty top notch to the end. It might have ended at just the right time, as the show dropped to...#39 or something like that from #19 the previous season, and #11 the one before that(season 5). Even though the show was still hilarious, I think times were changing for TV, and MTM had been going for 7 seasons; so, probably best to stop on your own terms, and when the show was still good. Saying that, I personally would have loved at least another year.
I enjoy all of the MTM show, with the first season possibly being my least favorite, just because I feel like the show was still finding itself. There is something appealing about the first year, but to me, it just wasn't quite that funny yet, and some of the characters were still being developed; so, they weren't necessarily written or played in the way I would come to appreciate. The 2nd season somehow feels like the first real season of MTM, the series I would come to know and love. Some of that might just be the change to the opening intro, but it's the overall feel of the show. The character development, or at least enough of it had formed. Mary was still the nice character we came to like the 1st season, but this "niceness" would slowly start to transition some in season 3, and continue throughout the series. I liked both versions of Mary, but she did become more sarcastic, which was funnier, and worked, but the wide eyed, somewhat innocent charm of her earlier years would be missed too. It seems like a pretty natural progression, though. She was seasoned by the world, and growing up.
The years without Rhoda work for me because I always enjoyed Mary's interactions with the newsroom most. They became her family(as Mary said herself in the final episode.) This was a single woman's family, and in a sense, a family for Mr. Grant after his divorce. They all just played so well among one another. That's not to take away from Mary and Rhoda because they had some hilarious and heartfelt antics as well. I guess I'm ok with just having 4 seasons of that, and then things progressing more to just WJM.
They could have tried to give us some new characters for Mary's neighbors when she moved, but outside of Penny Marshal being used minimally, no one else is really standing out. It's ok, though because the show didn't really need new characters to fill the void of Rhoda, and or Phyllis, when they had such talent as they did still left. That said, Georgette was fine as Ted's girlfriend/wife, but if she was intended to take the place of Rhoda, which it kind of seems, at least to an extent, that was not going to happen, and I'm glad they didn't really push too hard for Mary and Georgette to be besties. It could have worked had they tried to add a new character or two at Mary's new apartment, or even someone new in the newsroom, but then it could have failed miserably as well; so, I'm kind of glad they didn't tarnish the show by mixing things up that way. I'm also glad, if Georgette was meant to be Mary's new Rhoda, that this wasn't overly blatant. I feel like they played their cards well, and the show managed to be pretty top notch to the end. It might have ended at just the right time, as the show dropped to...#39 or something like that from #19 the previous season, and #11 the one before that(season 5). Even though the show was still hilarious, I think times were changing for TV, and MTM had been going for 7 seasons; so, probably best to stop on your own terms, and when the show was still good. Saying that, I personally would have loved at least another year.
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Excellent post
I do think the newsroom scenes were the best part of the show. The interaction of so many terrific actors and actresses was superb
Ted Knight was my favorite. He portrayed the buffoonish character with skill, layers, and depth. The best portrayal of that type of character
that I have ever viewed.
Edward Asner, Gavin McLeod, Betty White, and John Amos (in early shows) - outstanding
I liked Valerie Harper on MTM, no so much on other shows.
Chloris Leachman is an outstanding actress, but I never cared for the Phyllis character
Georgette Engel did a good job
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I think that's a common view, and sort of one that I share.
Some have correctly called Season 1 "magical" and in many ways it was -- the bittersweet, heartbroken vibe was simply in the water on the cusp of the '60s/'70s, and in MTM's freshman season, with its montage-y, more melancholy opening theme design and lyric and orchestration. There was a collective sense that they are leaving the trials & tragedies of the '60s behind and are trepidatiously stepping into the new era. (Even though one could argue that '60s went on for another three or four years).
The world actually felt like that in real life as the '70s were embarking.
And yet, the jokes at Ted's expense, during Season 1 in particular, are pretty cringey today (and seemed so just a year or two later). But in 1970, even lampooning the then-revered silver-haired-news-reader image was -- hard to believe now -- considered iconoclastic enough at the time, that just having Ted be "dumb" and "vain" was enough to generate standing-room-only laughs. (Which says more about where the media culture was at the time than anything).
But the producers were smart enough to know that that shock-effect approach to Ted Baxter's boorishness wouldn't last, and by Season 2, the writers were using more layers and subtlety to mine chuckles out of his selfishness. (And with the other characters as well).
MTM was one of the best examples of a sitcom which actually grew creatively as it went on, and yet didn't change too much that it lost its original appeal.
Most producers just don't know how to do that, listening to nature.
As you may know, Penny Marshall was scooped up mid-season for LAVERNE & SHIRLEY, while Mary Kay Place was snatched up, at exactly the same time, for MARY HARTMAN, MARY HARTMAN (now forgotten, but a huge hit in 1976).
Could they have worked long-term on MTM? We never had to test it. (But with Penny's and MKP's yin-yang Scorpio Rising vs. Aries Rising dynamic, it just might've, had MTM run longer). Although I'm glad the show ended when it did, critics then viewing the series as coming as close to "perfect" that a sitcom ever had, born in an era where the multi-character situation comedy, filmed in front of a live audience, was far from the polished assembly-line trope that the genre would later be.
MARY TYLER MOORE drooped a little towards the closing seasons because CBS moved ALL IN THE FAMILY from Saturday night. (Networks just can't help themselves from smashing up hit line-ups with a baseball bat as soon as they happen).
Also, Season 2 of STARSKY & HUTCH moved to Saturday and scheduled directly against MARY. And, believe it or not, it hurt the numbers.
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@Snarky
Thank you for the tidbit about ratings in season 7. That definitely would help explain a 20 point drop from the previous year. You don't always think of factoring things in like other shows being moved, schedule changes, etc, etc. To me the show was just about funny as ever, but it did seem like maybe they were on the verge of running out of ideas. However, this being the last year, it's hard to know how much of what I'm perceiving as slight burnout, might just be knowing it's coming to a close, and possibly not pushing as hard because of that? It was still quality material.
What you mention of season 1 I do get a sense of. It feels somewhat darker. It does stand as a beautiful time capsule for that period. I remember a long time ago coming across the actual production order of episodes, rather than the original air dates, and I decided to show the episodes to my friend in production order. Well, in production order, "Support Your Local Mother" was the 2nd episode produced, and I remember after we watched, my friend says, "That was the 2nd episode? I'm surprised it wasn't cancelled". LOL I then explained to him that I was showing him episodes in production order. I also thought it was funny that he had such a weak impression of "Support Your Local Mother". It also coincides with the point of view that the network brass apparently had of the episode(I read this in the earlier posts), I personally thought It was a pretty well done episode, even if it wasn't all that funny. It definitely had that darker tone about it.
Thank you for the tidbit about ratings in season 7. That definitely would help explain a 20 point drop from the previous year. You don't always think of factoring things in like other shows being moved, schedule changes, etc, etc. To me the show was just about funny as ever, but it did seem like maybe they were on the verge of running out of ideas. However, this being the last year, it's hard to know how much of what I'm perceiving as slight burnout, might just be knowing it's coming to a close, and possibly not pushing as hard because of that? It was still quality material.
What you mention of season 1 I do get a sense of. It feels somewhat darker. It does stand as a beautiful time capsule for that period. I remember a long time ago coming across the actual production order of episodes, rather than the original air dates, and I decided to show the episodes to my friend in production order. Well, in production order, "Support Your Local Mother" was the 2nd episode produced, and I remember after we watched, my friend says, "That was the 2nd episode? I'm surprised it wasn't cancelled". LOL I then explained to him that I was showing him episodes in production order. I also thought it was funny that he had such a weak impression of "Support Your Local Mother". It also coincides with the point of view that the network brass apparently had of the episode(I read this in the earlier posts), I personally thought It was a pretty well done episode, even if it wasn't all that funny. It definitely had that darker tone about it.
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Also, the producers announced prior to Season 7 that it would be the final year.
Interestingly about "Support Your Local Mother," the network forbade them to shoot the episode (they did anyway) because the CBS brass found the idea that anyone not getting along with their own mother to be shocking and were afraid audiences would agree... Instead, it got them the writing Emmy that year.
I wonder what your friend thought the episode should be.
Oh, the younger generations, with their Pac-man and their Madonna....
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Put me down as perhaps the strongest admirer of MTM S1. Yes S2 clicked better as an ensemble sitcom, but S1 had such a rich autumnal-melancholy vibe. Sharp, funny ensemble sitcoms are not that uncommon; there have been dozens, even if MTM is among the best. American shows with atmosphere are exceeding rare, and always fleeting. (Very early DALLAS had it, but quickly turned into Hollywood-visiting-Texas.)
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In some ways, I see it working as the 2nd episode because Mary &Rhoda didn't seem all that close yet, and in the original broadcast airing, "Today I Am Mam" made them out to be best friends, right after the pilot when things were tense between them. That said, I can see that because of the lack of a lot of laughs, and probably as you mentioned, the network's apprehension of a woman refusing to see her mother, why this was held back till episode 6. It's a fine episode, though, that tugs on the old heartstrings a little, especially if you have relatives that act/acted like that.Also, the producers announced prior to Season 7 that it would be the final year.
Interestingly about "Support Your Local Mother," the network forbade them to shoot the episode (they did anyway) because the CBS brass found the idea that anyone not getting along with their own mother to be shocking and were afraid audiences would agree... Instead, it got them the writing Emmy that year.
I wonder what your friend thought the episode should be.
Oh, the younger generations, with their Pac-man and their Madonna....
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Decline is subjective but I admit I don't enjoy the final 3 seasons nearly as much as the first 4. Objectively I think the quality remained consistent but there were too many little cuts at what made the early seasons so magical. When I rewatch the show, there are little turning points that always sadden me a bit: the loss of S1's ambience, the losses of Rhoda, Phyllis and even Gordy, the increased use of Georgette (my least favorite character), the move to the cold second apartment. Depending on my mood, I can get dangerously close to not liking the final season which I find rather flinty.
When AI finally reaches its potential, I think my first prompt will be "Put Rhoda in the last 3 seasons of THE MARY TYLER MOORE SHOW".
When AI finally reaches its potential, I think my first prompt will be "Put Rhoda in the last 3 seasons of THE MARY TYLER MOORE SHOW".
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I must agree, whether or not a specific series, in this case MARY TYLER MOORE, enters decline is definitely based on personal opinion. All of us might agree that the show did go into decline, but no two of us would agree exactly where that downward spiral began.
While I haven't watched all of MARY TYLER MOORE yet (it is on my watchlist, and I've got the first season in the can so far), I have watched a good number of the episodes from all of the seasons during different, random little binges I've done. For me, I find the show to be rather consistent throughout its entire seven-year-run. Yes, I do miss Rhoda when she is gone, but I think Sue Ann and Georgette are good characters, even if Georgette can wear me out just a bit. The show probably would've stayed at an even higher quality had Valerie Harper been retained and her spinoff held off, but I can't speak against Betty White and her contributions to the show.
So, to each their own.
While I haven't watched all of MARY TYLER MOORE yet (it is on my watchlist, and I've got the first season in the can so far), I have watched a good number of the episodes from all of the seasons during different, random little binges I've done. For me, I find the show to be rather consistent throughout its entire seven-year-run. Yes, I do miss Rhoda when she is gone, but I think Sue Ann and Georgette are good characters, even if Georgette can wear me out just a bit. The show probably would've stayed at an even higher quality had Valerie Harper been retained and her spinoff held off, but I can't speak against Betty White and her contributions to the show.
So, to each their own.
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I liked all 7 seasons.
As with most long running shows, the earlier seasons are the best ones.
Even if quality declined post season 4 (I don't necessarily agree with that), those seasons were still far better than the overwhelming majority of overproduced,
mediocre directed/acted shows that are current
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It did take a little while in season 5 to get used to not having Rhoda around, but I feel like by later that season, season 6, a pretty good transition was pretty much finalized with making the newsroom work as the primary focus. I think the show went out being just as funny, if not funnier than the early years, with just a small hint of burnout starting to possibly surface in the 7th season, but I can't really even put my finger on a particular episode at the moment. It was still a great show, that I would have loved to have seen another year or more of, but as I previously stated, it might be for the best they ended when they did. I think I remember Mary herself stating that some of the cast and crew were just ready to move on at that point, so, with it being the 7th season, I'm assuming an 8th season would have renegotiated contracts, and we might have lost some of the great minds behind the production, and probably Ed Asner, and possibly Ted Knight? Kinda speculating there, but without one of them, especially Ed Asner(not that I don't love Ted) or especially both of them, I just don't see it working at all by that point. The early years, and Rhoda have their charm, make no mistake. and I also liked Rhoda better as she was played on MTM, verses her becoming more the straight woman on "Rhoda". In fairness, I've only randomly sampled Rhoda, but there's also a reason for that. If I saw more of Rhoda, though, it might grow on me. There's a certain warmth that was somewhat lost in the later seasons of MTM, but then it would creep back out again here and there. Just a fantastic show. Long live Nick at Nite. 
My memories of being up way too late doing homework, and enjoying the comedy and comfort of MTM will always live on.
My memories of being up way too late doing homework, and enjoying the comedy and comfort of MTM will always live on.
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See, that's just exactly it -- there is just a tiny whiff of "we're about to shut down now, and goodnight," about Season 7: it's perfectly good, but it feels almost ready to close up shop. (Even back then, I recall Ted nervously pacing around the doctor's office, cutesy music in the background, and the scene felt "off" -- something they wouldn't have done earlier on, or, if so, they would've done it slightly differently).
There's a mild biding-time quality about it which doesn't shortchange the viewer in any way, but turning out the lights at WJM seems imminent. (Mary's eye-lift surgery between S6 and S7 says it all: she's priming herself to marry Donald Sutherland, sleep with Redford, and passive-aggressively abuse Timothy Hutton -- and we'll all be the richer for it).
One more year might have revealed a slight strain.
I think of it like DALLAS in a way: a seven-year run ending in Bobby's death. (Of course, MTM would never have re-cast Murray with Paul Lynde in Season 7, even if DALLAS did).
And I'd never want to miss DALLAS' ninth year (Season 10, per DVD), the Shakespearean Séance at Southfork --- which was the real conclusion, with Pam going "splat!" and conflagrating into oblivion.
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@Snarky-"I think of it like DALLAS in a way: a seven-year run ending in Bobby's death. (Of course, MTM would never have re-cast Murray with Paul Lynde in Season 7, even if DALLAS did)."See, that's just exactly it -- there is just a tiny whiff of "we're about to shut down now, and goodnight," about Season 7: it's perfectly good, but it feels almost ready to close up shop. (Even back then, I recall Ted nervously pacing around the doctor's office, cutesy music in the background, and the scene felt "off" -- something they wouldn't have done earlier on, or, if so, they would've done it slightly differently).
There's a mild biding-time quality about it which doesn't shortchange the viewer in any way, but turning out the lights at WJM seems imminent. (Mary's eye-lift surgery between S6 and S7 says it all: she's priming herself to marry Donald Sutherland, sleep with Redford, and passive-aggressively abuse Timothy Hutton -- and we'll all be the richer for it).
One more year might have revealed a slight strain.
I think of it like DALLAS in a way: a seven-year run ending in Bobby's death. (Of course, MTM would never have re-cast Murray with Paul Lynde in Season 7, even if DALLAS did).
And I'd never want to miss DALLAS' ninth year (Season 10, per DVD), the Shakespearean Séance at Southfork --- which was the real conclusion, with Pam going "splat!" and conflagrating into oblivion.
I'm not positive which episode that shot of Mary you posted is from, but for some reason it brings to mind the insomnia episode, where Mary was becoming dependent on sleeping pills. Great episode, and my mind goes right to Ted saying to Mary, after he drops his glasses in her tub. "Oh, relax, Mary; this will only take an hour". LOL. Oh, Ted. That was some gold right there.
I agree with your consensus on the final season. As I've said before, I'm not sure myself if I'm really picking up on any decrease in quality, verses just them knowing this was it, and wrapping up. I can actually have some appreciation for the latter. It just seemed like we were reminded several times by one of the characters, "when you first walked in here 7 years ago", etc..and they were jumping ahead just a little with that. As far as trying to think of a weaker moment from the 7th season, I'm having trouble at the moment. I know there were some episodes that just didn't really stand out, but every season had a few of those. I seem to recall reading somewhere, at some point in time, that some felt "Mary's Three Husbands" was bordering on typical sitcom like territory, and while this might be true, to an extent, I don't really have a problem with the episode, but it's not a favorite. I will say, the Georgette character was never a favorite of mine, and she is probably the only thing that turns me off from the later seasons, but that said, I didn't hate her or anything, and could see her and Ted together, but I just didn't really enjoy too much of the character. She kinda fit in, but I could see if some people viewed her as supposedly being an attempt at being Mary's new Rhoda, how that would have been a big turnoff, and just having scenes of her and Mary at the apartment was a bit of a letdown, compared to when it was Rhoda. I always try to think of her as Ted's love interest, and not so much her relationship to Mary. She would be the weakest link of those later seasons to me, and the last season(I think) they had the whole episode about her and Ted having their own show. That seems kind of bordering on shark jumping, but I haven't seen the episode in quite some time. It might be a fine episode with just kind of a weaker plot. Shrug. Don't get me wrong, Georgette could be ok, but I can see where having more of her, and no Rhoda would make some turn away. I saw all the other comedy that was still there, though, and it very much was.
"Mary, compared to her, you're a dog".
-Ted's Temptation
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Although Georgette doesn't bother me at all. I agree she was there to humanize Ted. If she was intended to be a Rhod replacement (and I don't really think she was) the producers saw what would and wouldn't work for Georgette, and then took her in the right direction.
For me, what worked for Georgette was that she was quiet and mousy, so when she delivered an observational punchline, it was three times as funny because she'd often not said anything up until that moment in the scene.
For me, what worked for Georgette was that she was quiet and mousy, so when she delivered an observational punchline, it was three times as funny because she'd often not said anything up until that moment in the scene.