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Georgia Engel's character on Everybody Loves Raymond was used in a similar way in the pivotal episodes where Robert and Amy got married. Engel's character, Pat was Amy's mother. She only appeared sporadically (since Amy really was a supporting character at best) but she came into her own when Marie (Robert's insanely overbearing mother) made the Robert/Amy wedding about herself rather than the happy couple. Everyone in the cast had just resigned themselves to being bullied and mistreated by Marie so when she "acted up" at the wedding, none of the main cast was really surprised. So it fell upon Engel's character to take up for her daughter, to read Marie the riot act for ruining Amy's Big Day. Other characters (especially Raymond) were thrilled someone had finally called out Marie for how she acted, but her character was so "nice" that she felt terrible for telling Marie off that way.
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I didn't see that episode of Everybody Loves Raymond, but I can totally see Georgia pulling that whole scenario off well. I also agree with Snarky that she was mainly there to humanize Ted. I liked it when she stood up to him. I also am totally on board with appreciating Sue Anne more. It's not that I dislike Georgette, but I just didn't find her very funny that often, but she did have her moments. Again, @Snarky Oracle!, when she surprised the audience with something totally unexpected for her character to say. Betty White as Sue Anne really was one of my favorite things about the last three seasons, though. Quite frankly, I'm kinda surprised they didn't upgrade Betty and Georgia to regular co-star billing by the last year or two. I guess because they weren't in some episodes?? Or, they just didn't want to redo the opening intro to feature some shots of them as well? LOL
Just to clarify, I wasn't saying that I thought Georgette was a replacement for Rhoda, but more that if people had been tuning in to the first 4 seasons with Rhoda, they might have kinda thought that was the direction the producers were going in, and been turned off, but TPTB never pushed it too far, thankfully.
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Speaking of Sue Anne, was the whole point of her getting booted from the Happy Home Maker show towards the end so that she would be fired with everyone else(but Ted, of course 
)? I mean, they still could have fired her from her show in the last episode, too, but I guess it worked better as simply a newsroom dilemma. It just seemed kind of odd because she was fired; Mary finally agreed to hire her at the end of the episode, but I don't think it's ever mentioned what her new role actually was even supposed to be.
)? I mean, they still could have fired her from her show in the last episode, too, but I guess it worked better as simply a newsroom dilemma. It just seemed kind of odd because she was fired; Mary finally agreed to hire her at the end of the episode, but I don't think it's ever mentioned what her new role actually was even supposed to be.
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But they did, especially in Season 7. Georgia Engel went from "with" to no "with," and Betty White went to "And".
Yes, I think that was it.
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I think you have to look at it from the point of view of the time. Watched in isolation, Rhoda is missed from the parent show. But in context that was offset by the excitement of seeing her start a new life in New York.
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@Daniel Avery :Thank you for sharing that clip. "I think that's called narcissism".. That cracked me up. That seemed almost like Georgette. The actress barely aged in what, over 20 years? Wow.
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At the time, and certainly now, Rhoda's absence in MTM is glossed over in the parent series' episodes from early-Season 5, such that newer viewers today could be confused about what happened to her, other than a brief reference to a wedding.
I mean, it's not as clunky as the Colbys' appearance on DYNASTY before spinning off -- but then maybe it is.
I'm not sure I found Mary's new apartment cold myself, but it was certainly different. Although it had those '70s earthtones and decor, and was a highrise versus a cozy Victorian attic -- and Mary herself concedes "I don't like it!" upon moving in (a smart move on the part of the writers, having Mary verbalize -- and therefore potentially offset -- the audience's inevitable discomfort with the relocation), I kind of accepted her new digs not because I liked them all that much (I kind of didn't) but because it seemed, even then, that it was a bit of a launching pad for Mary into a new future that we'd mostly never see (given that the show obviously had to end sometime, and it probably wouldn't be too far off).
BTW: the actual attic apartment in the real house which served as Mary's first lair:
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While I prefer Mary's first apartment to the second, I do feel the change in scenery was at least somewhat necessary for the show. The original apartment would continue echoing memories of Rhoda and even Phyllis, and clearly neither Valerie Harper nor Cloris Leachman were returning to MARY TYLER MOORE full-time, owing to their separate commitments to their own spinoffs.
Changing where Mary lived I think helped ease the incorporation of Sue Ann and Georgette into the ensemble. It might've been a little jarring to see either of those ladies waltzing in and out of Mary's original bachelorette pad like Rhoda and Phyllis had done.
But, that's just my opinion.
Changing where Mary lived I think helped ease the incorporation of Sue Ann and Georgette into the ensemble. It might've been a little jarring to see either of those ladies waltzing in and out of Mary's original bachelorette pad like Rhoda and Phyllis had done.
But, that's just my opinion.
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Georgette was introduced as a co worker/friend of Rhoda originally so her coming to Mary's original apartment wasn't out of left field, but the one note Sue Ann Nevins wouldn't have been caught dead stopping by for a cup of coffee vs Mary's newer 'adult' apartment.
Also, another unpopular opinion... but Rhoda's spin-off was only good when she was married to Joe. Once she divorced Joe, she basically became a divorced Mary Richards esque individual losing most of her bohemian charm with her sister Brenda becoming the Rhoda to her Mary. Ratings dropped when the marriage ended so viewers at the time were in agreement that married Rhoda was what they wanted.. not a divorced Rhoda.
Also, another unpopular opinion... but Rhoda's spin-off was only good when she was married to Joe. Once she divorced Joe, she basically became a divorced Mary Richards esque individual losing most of her bohemian charm with her sister Brenda becoming the Rhoda to her Mary. Ratings dropped when the marriage ended so viewers at the time were in agreement that married Rhoda was what they wanted.. not a divorced Rhoda.
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I think you are probably correct on this, for exactly the reasons that you stated. For the show to move forward, it probably wouldn't have worked as well at the old apartment setting, People missed Rhoda, and I suppose to a lesser extent(well, in my case), Phyllis, but Phyllis also wasn't around nearly as much as Rhoda, well after the 2nd season. On the other hand, though, as often as the folks from the newsroom stopped by the new apartment, that might have been enough to make the audience accept no longer having Rhoda and Phyllis in the old apartment setting. It's hard to say for certain. I also think, like everything else about the show we might not have liked losing, it was kind of a natural evolution. Mary had been at WJM for 5 years when she moved, it was time for her to be, "movin' on up". Did I like the 2nd apartment as much as the first? No. It was pretty nondescript, while the first one had character, and a certain warmth. Again, a woman working her way up in the world probably wouldn't stay in a studio apartment forever, but there wouldn't be anything wrong with it if she did, just not very realistic.
I actually agree with that unpopular opinion, just based on what I've seen of Rhoda. The Joe seasons seem better. It might have worked better had she just not been married to Joe at all, but then I think them making the show primarily about a married couple could have worked, but that kind of limited what Rhoda could do on her own in the series.
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I tend to agree that the show was not as good after the split.
I might not be the best source on this. I never liked David Groh on Rhoda (didn't like him on General Hospital either)
I thought Valerie Harper was good on MTM, good in the early Rhoda episodes, but never cared for her other work (ie her sitcom, which I thought was better after she departed - I liked Sandy Duncan more)
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I will have to go back and look at those season 7 closing credits. I'm not doubting you, but I could have sworn it was still "co-starring" Ed Asner", Gavin MacLeod, Ted Knight, and then "with" Georgia Engel "and" Betty White. There might have been some episodes where this wasn't the case..it's a little fuzzy at the moment. I just always thought by season 6 at least, they should have been on the same level as Ed, Gavin, and Ted, but they weren't in every episode like they were, so, I guess that could be why they weren't given the upgrade(if in fact they weren't??)
I also kinda wish the intro had been updated again after season 4/5,(other than the revamp we got of the music in season 7), but TPTB probably thought their intro of Mary roaming about the city was top notch, and it was, but maybe just a short clip or two from an episode(as the crew certainly wasn't going to make another trip to Minneapolis for location shooting) would have been a nice nod to Georgia and Betty.
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Another thing I'm sure no one cares about, but I believe in the first run episodes of season 2, Cloris Leachman wasn't in every intro, only the episodes she appeared in, and the ones without her featured a shot of just Mary turning and laughing instead(a shot from "Support Your Local Mother"). That version has long since been lost, probably since it went to DVD.
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Engel's "with" was removed, as I recall, in Season 7. The "with" is a secondary billing because she wasn't an original character. Betty White (with a longer career) started out with "guest star" billing, removed once she became a regular, and eventually got an "And" (which is more-or-less commiserate with "co-starring.")
Whether those were gifted to the newer actors or negotiated by their agents is anybody's guess.
And they're all dead now, so none of them can dispute my story.
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I was watching Airplane! recently and saw Joyce Bulifant as one of the passengers. She played the mother of the kid who was on her way to get some kind of life-saving operation. It had never clicked with me that Bulifant played Gavin MacLeod/Murray's wife on MTM, and that the little girl in Airplane! was played by Jill Whelan, who ended up playing Gavin MacLeod/Captain Stubing's daughter on Love Boat.
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That's pretty much my point. At the time, it was not necessary to explain Rhoda's absence because we were watching her on her own series.
Once again referring to "the time", Rhoda's marriage was not that popular. That's why they divorced them; they thought they could get back to the independent free-spirited Rhoda, but it only made things worse.
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Joyce Bulifant is now 88 tears young
Always found her to be a likeable actress.
Trivia- She was the original choice for Carol Brady on "The Brady Bunch", and I believe that Gene Hackman was the original choice for Mike Brady
Joyce Bulifant - Wikipedia
How a beloved sitcom almost permanently altered Gene Hackman’s career
A crossroads moment.
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52 million people tuning in to see Rhoda's wedding episodes, and top ten placement for the first two seasons where Rhoda was married would tell me that it was a popular concept. And falling out of the top 20 in season 3 when Rhoda/Joe split would also tell me that a divorced Rhoda wasn't something people wanted to see.. especially in the 70s.
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Viewers were not that shocked by divorce in 1976 television (back in 1970, when MTM premiered just six years earlier, it was much more so).
What made Rhoda's & Joe's divorce so tiresome was that it felt like a desperate measure, arbitrary, and exactly what it was: a forced attempt to shake things up because RHODA was never really working.. Sure, the ratings had been great in the beginning, the snarky TV sidekick of the era getting her own spin-off (which almost never really works, especially since the writers always water-down the persona once they get their own show -- and you knew that would happen here, without fail). And Rhoda's wedding, only 8 episodes into the first season (as dictated by CBS for "sweeps" purposes), garnered record numbers for a TV nuptial. But RHODA never really knew what it was, or wanted to be.
And, yes, the divorce just made it worse. Embracing late-'70s disco life as a Manhattan single could have worked, but it didn't; it was just more unfocused see-what-sticks-to-the-wall-and-then-use-what-doesn't desperation. There was just so little creative clarity in RHODA from the outset, things getting even more misguided as the series went along and tried to make adjustments.