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Dallas Top Ten Top Ten

Willie Oleson

Telly Talk Schemer
Pam telling Bobby about her dream destroyed the reputation and credibility of both the show and the entire genre
That's understandable.
Dynasty didn't get as much press here as Dallas
Here it was the opposite, but more importantly, The Carringtons were my happy TV family. I like DALLAS, but somehow I never felt that way about the Ewings.
Therefore, the abysmal Moldavia aftermath was far more disappointing to me, although - admittedly - not that devastating when I watched it the first time since I was more interested in what would happen next.
Either way, I truly believe that was Dynasty's JTS moment...but did it destroy the Dynasty saga itself?
To answer my own question: considering how fantastic Dynasty's last season was, the answer is: no.

So, I think there's a difference between the show's credibility (and perhaps the entire genre as you've pointed out) and the actual post-JTS story itself.
It didn't stop me from enjoying the episodes that came after the dream explanation.
Therefore I disagree with the opinion that it destroyed DALLAS completely.
 

Karin

Moderator
Staff Member
I don't have a problem with the dream resolution and Bobby coming back in the shower since I began watching the show after it happened and knew about it beforehand when I finally got around to watch it.

But well from the reaction I got from my friends and extended family when I told them that I had begun to watch Dallas I would agree that most of the viewers do feel like it was the jump the shark moment of the show. I remember all my friends ever told me was: "Dallas? You mean that show where he came back in the shower? How can you watch that we've stopped watching it."

Even one of my friends who used to love the show when I visited her about two years earlier had given up on the show when I began watching it. But I think it was Pam's crash that made her stop watching. :(

I did have two friends who kept up with it though. Also my parents and my uncle and my grandma stuck with the show until the end. I think that was a part of Dallas appeal that since it was a show about a family that had three generations it was also a show that several generations could watch together, as we each had characters that were about our age that we could relate to.

I would say that Dallas is the most popular imported show to have been shown in Sweden. Back in the 80s we only had two TV channels so about half of the population watched it, which was about 3-4 million people back then I think. In 2012 when Dallas came back 1,4 million viewers tuned into watch the first episode, which was the highest rating that TV4 had had for an imported show ever and they had existed for about 20 years prior to that. So I'd say the Swedish people were more than ready to welcome the Ewings back into our living rooms. :)
So well the potential of Dallas TNT definitely was there but since the stories didn't deliver about half of the audience had tuned out by the end of season one so by season two it was moved to a later time slot and a sister channel that fewer people had access to.

So I'd say the real moment Dallas jumped the shark was when Dallas TNT came along! :(
 

Michael Torrance

Telly Talk Mega Star
That's understandable.

Here it was the opposite, but more importantly, The Carringtons were my happy TV family. I like DALLAS, but somehow I never felt that way about the Ewings.
Therefore, the abysmal Moldavia aftermath was far more disappointing to me, although - admittedly - not that devastating when I watched it the first time since I was more interested in what would happen next.
Either way, I truly believe that was Dynasty's JTS moment...but did it destroy the Dynasty saga itself?
To answer my own question: considering how fantastic Dynasty's last season was, the answer is: no.

So, I think there's a difference between the show's credibility (and perhaps the entire genre as you've pointed out) and the actual post-JTS story itself.
It didn't stop me from enjoying the episodes that came after the dream explanation.
Therefore I disagree with the opinion that it destroyed DALLAS completely.

Dynasty did not have such "jump the shark" moments. Dynasty reinvented itself--for better or worse-- as "keep jumping over more and more sharks" already in season 2. Un-reality was what defined it, which is why it climbed back to the top five at the end of season 6 even after Moldavia when yet another crazy unrealistic plot surfaced (oh yeah, grandma Ellen did not die quietly after all like we said in season one. She was in fact called Fallon (silly us) and died in a fire because she was abandoned by a never-before-heard son). The wilder Dynasty was, the more its fans loved it. Lily pond cat-fights, dolls thrown off roofs passing as babies, poison paint driving people mad, you name it. Dynasty slipped in the ratings only by the end of season 7, when the producers decided to make Dynasty more grounded, and they grounded it deep in the ratings pit.

Dallas, on the other hand, was always more realistic as a show--especially the relationships between characters were realistic as was the viewers' commitment to the characters, even when the plots started getting less plausible. Dallas invited viewers to mourn for Bobby and had characters deal with that grief as a reflection of the one viewers felt. Once you pull the rug from under your audience like that, a committed core will keep on watching but the rest are out the door.
 

Kenny Coyote

Telly Talk Star
1. Bringing Bobby back. There was no credible way to do this.

2. Wes Parmalee claiming to be Jock and it almost worked. That was absurd. He didn't even have close to the same build as Jim Davis and he didn't have a single scar on his face after his face being burned so badly they had to build him an entirely new face. Even today plastic surgery is not nearly that good.

3. Sue Ellen and Peter's romance - distasteful and absurd. It was actually hard to watch.

4. Keeping Sue Ellen married to JR far too long was pathetic. She said she didn't love JR anymore but said she had "earned the right to live at Southfork." That makes no sense.

5. Continually failing t make Mandy JR's new wife. JR loved Mandy, and she was the breath of fresh air that JR and the whole show needed.He was sick of Sue Ellen but he wouldn't do what was necessary. He never even figured out Sue Ellen owned Valentine. There is no reasonable way for them to expect us to believe JR wouldn't have found that out quickly and easily. JR kept waiting for Sue Ellen to "give him" a divorce. JR learned from Jock you can't wait for people to give you things - you take what you want. He loved and wanted Mandy but wasn't willing to do what was necessary, whatever was necessary.

6-10 coming soon.
 

Kenny Coyote

Telly Talk Star
Dallas Jumping The Shark #6 - #10 (This only includes Dallas 1978-1991 as Larimar Dallas is the only show I recognize as Dallas)

6. Michelle Stevens - I won't list specific storylines involving her because there was nothing good which featured her. I will say that as bad as she was, what made it even worse was the absolutely ridiculously huge amount of TV time they gave Michelle Stevens. I think she got more TV time than Pamela Barnes Ewing used to get!

7. James Beaumont - The idea of JR having a song he didn't know about could have led to an intriguing, entertaining storyline with lots of dramatic potential. The storylines they came up with fell far short of that, unfortunately. To make things even worse, Sasha Mitchell's acting ability fell so far short of the quality necessary to warrant a major role on Dallas that it was a travesty that he was cast for the role of James Beaumont and that they gave him such a massive amount of TV time.

8. LeeAnn Della Vega Buying Ewing Oil - Having Bobby sell Ewing Oil was bad enough but to then have him sell it to that bubble headed bimbo (especially since West Star offered more money for Ewing Oil) was just insulting to the intelligence of the audience and insulting to the Dallas legacy and reputation which so many wonderful, talented people devoted a large portion of their lives to building. It was adding insult to injury when they had JR fail to realize how obviously she was manipulating him, setting him up for something.

9. The insane asylum storyline - It was far, far beneath the standards of Dallas. It was undignified, distasteful, and showed JR in a light in which none of us would have ever wanted to see him. The fact that JR didn't have a better contingency plan for his release from the asylum in place before he admitted himself was very out-of-character for JR, much like some of the other things I've listed in this thread which leads me to number ten.

10. Ruining the integrity of the main characters - In the later years of Dallas, especially the last three seasons, the writers failed to write the characters in an authentic way. In some cases, the lines the characters had to recite were so inauthentic to the characters that the audience had come to know and love that the audience must have, on quite a few occasions, found themselves saying saying "This isn't the same character"!
 

Kenny Coyote

Telly Talk Star
Really? And to think Larry was an Executive Producer during those final seasons. To rub further salt into the wound they co-executive produce Dallas: Jr Returns then inflict more of the same with Dallas: War of the Ewings. Just proves they may have been fine actors in their appropriate roles but useless when it came to truly understanding what that secret ingredient was that made the early years of Dallas so damn good.

Could someone please explain how the role of Executive Producer differs from that of Director? I'm interested because this point (Larry Hagman being made one of the executive producers of Dallas) has been brought up quite a few times, with the implication being that giving Hagman that position was responsible for the downward spiral of Dallas in its later years.

If this is a real possibility, then why aren't the directors and writers for the later years of Dallas ever mentioned in the same light? Although I don't know much about the role of producer and how it varies from executive producer and how either one compares to the role of director, I do know that when people talk about movies that are true classics, the credit usually goes primarily to the actors, the director, and to a slightly lesser but still major extent, the writer or writers. Anyone can name famous directors: Hitchcock, Spielberg, Scorsese, and Francis Ford Coppola are some that come to mind. Naming famous producers is harder. The Academy Awards generally save the Oscar for Best Director for very near the end of the show because of its prestige. In comparison there isn't even a "Best Producer" Academy Award is there? Why then, is so much attention given to who the executive producers of Dallas were as opposed to the directors and writers? Shouldn't the directors and writers share more of the blame than co-exective producers?

Thank you in advance. I will appreciate any knowledge anyone is willing to share regarding the role and responsibilities of co-executive producer and how they compare to the role and responsibilities of being a director.
 
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Karin

Moderator
Staff Member
To my understanding the difference between a producer and a director is that the producer is involved in the business side of things while the director is involved in the creative side of things.

Let me give you some examples, a producer is the one who negotiate contracts, make a budget and keep track of it, raise money for the production, pitch ideas/sell it to the network, communicate with the writers, can fire and hire people and over all keep track of all aspects of the production. Without the producer there wouldn't be a show.

The director works closer to the actors and are a part of the creative process that goes on when you take something from the script and make it come to life in front of the camera. The director makes sure that the cast is informed of where and when they are going to film, make a shooting schedule for which order to film the scenes, decide where the camera angles are supposed to be when you are filming, communicate with the sound team and encourage the cast and help them perfect their performances.

I don't know what the difference is between being an executive producer and a producer.
 

Rove

Telly Talk Warrior
An Executive Producer also has responsibilities regarding 'creative content'. Whatever the case may be regarding the decline of Lorimar Dallas it would appear there were too many chiefs. I also detest the nepotism which crept into it with Leonard Katzman's family having key roles.
 

Victoriafan3

Telly Talk Addict
Everyone has such good responses here!
For me

1. Pams insultingly ungracious exit

2. the even worse follow up with bobby not even caring or crying or searching for her. Pam would've gone to the end of the earth to try and find him. This response from bobby just didn't wash with me.

3. Bob, you obviously had some suds in your brain from your SHOWER

4. The dream resolution was a cop out but stung most of all because ray and Donna had their most brilliant year ever. Susan and Steve SHINE in the dream season and then their splendid storyline and performances wiped just like that

5. What happened to ray and Donna 86-87 was soooo bad. Jenna and ray?? Really!!! Almost as bad as bobby and Jenna but at least that made sense. Letting go of Susan instead of Priscilla at this time, I dont understand to this day

6. Miss Ellie wore smocks and could act and then she went bouffant and posh had fab tablecloth frocks and said 'yes dear' and then poof we're (thankfully) back to smocks again. Quite hilarious. And nobody in the family see to notice either of the swapping heads of mamma

7. The Martinique masquerade plot. Wait gentle viewers. You are still watching Dallas. You have not slipped into a parrelel universe called dynasty. Bond girl Angelica in swishy capes and hats she stole from alexis (would've been good as a panto villain), her creepy assistant Grace (played by an aptly named actress who rhymes with Completely Gone Camp) and the drippy sidekick Nickle-arse (angelicas pronounciation of his name never failed to make me snicker)

7. Bobbys silly emerald friend who we never heard of prior to this

8. The loss of sue Ellen and the complete fumble of stories that deteriorated from there on, with our familiar heroines and matriarch roles with basically just token appearances from these once mighty women to be replaced by

9. Awful April and moanful Michelle and child bride cally storylines. Blah

10. Apart from her cliff scenes , the side shafting Pam got to accomodate bobbys return
 
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Toni

Maximum Member
Could someone please explain how the role of Executive Producer differs from that of Director? I'm interested because this point (Larry Hagman being made one of the executive producers of Dallas) has been brought up quite a few times, with the implication being that giving Hagman that position was responsible for the downward spiral of Dallas in its later years.

If this is a real possibility, then why aren't the directors and writers for the later years of Dallas ever mentioned in the same light? Although I don't know much about the role of producer and how it varies from executive producer and how either one compares to the role of director, I do know that when people talk about movies that are true classics, the credit usually goes primarily to the actors, the director, and to a slightly lesser but still major extent, the writer or writers. Anyone can name famous directors: Hitchcock, Spielberg, Scorsese, and Francis Ford Coppola are some that come to mind. Naming famous producers is harder. The Academy Awards generally save the Oscar for Best Director for very near the end of the show because of its prestige. In comparison there isn't even a "Best Producer" Academy Award is there? Why then, is so much attention given to who the executive producers of Dallas were as opposed to the directors and writers? Shouldn't the directors and writers share more of the blame than co-exective producers?

Thank you in advance. I will appreciate any knowledge anyone is willing to share regarding the role and responsibilities of co-executive producer and how they compare to the role and responsibilities of being a director.

Kenny, you have made a few good remarks about producers and Hollywood. I´ll try to give you my humble opinion about the Dallas producers in particular (and keep in mind that it´s an opinion from reading books and watching interviews and documentaries about the show).

First of all, Larry Hagman as Executive Producer. Well, he said himself that he had no responsibility at all re the producing task, they just gave him some more money in those last years. Theoretically, he had also some input in questions like major storylines and casting choices (he did meet Cathy Podewell before she was hired and saw there would be instant chemistry, though some people here might disagree...). About the Haleyville saga, the official story confirms that it was him who suggested it to the writers / producers, but I personally think that they said: "Ok Larry, that´s a great idea!" and instead of developing it in a good, creative way, they made up the nonsense story they gave us!

In the golden era of "Dallas" (Seasons 1 through 7 originals), the power was distributed between Phil Capice (executive producer) and Leonard Katzman (producer, writer and director). If there is a good reason for those seasons being so many wonderful TV hours, aside from the original cast, is that. Both guys allegedly were opposite in character and dynamics: Capice was the executive, cold mind who took big decisions, while Katzman was the friend of the actors, and controlled everything story-wise, from little details in the background story of the characters to re-shooting scenes of episodes directed by other people that he saw didn´t work. There is a French documentary titled "Faire Dallas" where they (Katzman, A.B. Lewis and Paulsen) succintly talk about this subject.

Comparing movie producers with TV producers of that era is not a good thing, because TV was a second-class kind of entertainment back then (and within the TV world, soap operas were very likely the pariahs, just look at the Emmy awards or nominations for the casts of any of the 4 big soaps). Today it may be more equalled though in a way it´s been reversed: fantasy blockbusters are million-makers but not too many critics give high reviews of them. However, the cable-produced series are, even when they don´t have high viewer numbers, mostly acclaimed even internationally. Some people say that young bankers are the ones who really make movies today, and that talented people have been attracted to TV channels, where they are more free creatively.

Back to "Dallas": "When the Prods Collide". In the D. Reed Season, I might guess that Capice and Katzman had big, well-hidden problems (who knows if casting Ms. Reed had something to do with it?), and Katzman left to produce his own series ("Something´s Honor"?), which flopped considerably. Capice took reins of the series and brought writers from "Knots Landing" while Paulsen decided to take a job as a producer / writer in the 7th Season of the spin-off. The change of writing style wasn´t really noticed until the Dream Season debuted, and it was not a bad idea to get deeper into the main characters´ psyche but eventually, what they (and also Capice, and even Katzman as Consultant, and the one who created Angelica Nero, go figure) did was turning the show into a "Dynasty" copycat, though some storylines reminded more of "Little House on the Prairie" (Ray and Donna).

So, ratings dropped and dropped, and Larry Hagman made the celebrated call to his "dead brother" Duffy to convince him to return. He also was the one who blamed Capice for the show´s failure, and rumors say that he did pay him a few bucks from his pocket to get rid of him. Katzman and Duffy came back, and the dream resolution killed the credibility of the series forever and ever. Viewers kept leaving, especially after Victoria Principal decided not to renew her contract at the end of the year. Losing Susan Howard and later Steve Kanaly and Linda Gray hurt the ratings too. Anyway, the "Dallas" writers in Season 9 were not new, because Katzman brought Paulsen back from "Knots" and also a few other writers from earlier seasons. In a very suspicious move he also put one of his sons at one of the top charges. In future seasons only he or his son appeared in the main producer titles, so maybe having Mr. Hagman added later on was more of a marketing strategy. About the writers of the post-Pam years, Paulsen also was pivotal for Season 10 storylines, and they brought back another writer from the early seasons, Howard Lakin, partly responsible for turning the show into the "Haggie and Duffy Comedy Hour". So to each his own. I hope I made sense of something here...
 
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Rove

Telly Talk Warrior
her creepy assistant Grace (played by an aptly named actress who rhymes with Completely Gone Camp)
I actually liked the character of Grace Van Owen, played brilliantly by Merete Van Kamp. There was something a little unnerving about her character, but I remember I couldn't keep my eyes off her. Pity this was the dream season.
 
I actually liked the character of Grace Van Owen

Me too!

58cff37b49952882a14253a8f0f942d4.jpg
 
I wonder if there was any infringement on copyright by L.A. Law naming a major character after it had already appeared on Dallas.

And so close too. It was the very next season.

I'm not sure how the copyright thing would work in a case like this. Maybe the powers that be at Dallas decided it wasn't worth pursuing since their Grace Van Owen had been a figment of another character's imagination.
 

Victoriafan3

Telly Talk Addict
I forgot to include bobby marrying April. As if?!! Oh well, there are so many jump the shark moments from the dream and Pam, sue Ellen's and miss Ellie's departure onwards we can't count them all, can we? ;)
 

Toni

Maximum Member
And so close too. It was the very next season.

I'm not sure how the copyright thing would work in a case like this. Maybe the powers that be at Dallas decided it wasn't worth pursuing since their Grace Van Owen had been a figment of another character's imagination.

Actually her last name was never pronounced or seen in written onscreen. So who could know that Grace was "a" Van Owen when it was aired, aside from the cast and crew? I guess that´s why nothing happened.
 

Ome

Admin Emeritus
Another week passes by and lots of forum downtime

14 voted and 54 different ‘Jump the Shark’ moments

Here’s how they look


bobby-ewing-hong-kong-dream.png
​






1. Bringing Back Bobby = 104


2. Replacing BBG with Donna Reed = 80

3. Jr marrying Cally = 41

4. Angelica Nero story = 36

5. Pam’s accident leaves her alive = 34

6. Pam hunts for Emeralds = 29

7. JR in the sanatorium = 27

8. Casting Priscilla Presley = 26

9. Character April Stevens = 22

10. Ray and Jenna (and the show) pretending their rebound romance wasn't one = 21

11. Character Wes Parmalee = 17

12. Bobby abandoning Pam / Peter Richards story = 16

13. Sheila Foley story = 12

14. Mark is back alive = 11

15. Gallivanting around Europe / Ellie & Clayton marry off-screen / Character Donna let go / Character Michelle Stevens / Taking the strong and capable character of season 5 (dvd) Katherine and making her suffer from erotomania and have no life whatsoever aside from trying to get Bobby just so that they could basically recycle the "sister tries to steal her sister's husband plot", make people worship the "golden couple" of Bobby and Pam even more, and give Pam more inheritances in the dream. Wasted storyline opportunities, and while Morgan Brittany was wonderful at acting crazy, they could have capitalized on her talent as an actress by making her have real storylines and expanding on her character / Pam has been dead 20 years = 10

16. Poor execution of who shot Bobby / The final season / Characters James & Vanessa / PamBecca kills Tommy and gets away with it / Increasing soapy tone of the Dream Season = 9

17. ‘Ellie She Wrote’ storyline / Acting from Sasha Mitchell / “You mean that bastard is still alive?” = 8

18. BD Calhoun story / Carter McKay / JR held hostage in Haleyville / The threesome on TNT / Keeping Sue Ellen *& JR married = 7

19. Kimberley Cryder / Conundrum / Cliff blows up oil rig / 1987 onwards / Jack & Jenna romance / Failing to marry JR & Mandy = 6

20. Sue Ellen running a multi-million dollar company / Pam’s existence ignored = 5

21. The Range War / JR getting shot by Sue Ellen and not dying / JR getting killed off in TNT / The Mafia plotline = 4

22. LeeAnne Della Vega / Sue Ellen leaving Dallas = 3

23. The extinction of all sense of romance on "Dallas" / Sue Ellen’s movie = 2

24. No more original cast members / Jamie & Cliff’s wedding in the condo / Jessica’s murder spree / Apart from her cliff scenes , the side shafting Pam got to accomodate bobbys return = 1
 

Ome

Admin Emeritus
Up next


Favourite episode titles that stood out from the rest

Not necessarily a great episode,
but what titles did you think were
brilliantly thought out?

List your ten and we'll see which is most popular

Totals next weekend
​
 

Angela Channing

Telly Talk Veteran
Favourite episode titles that stood out from the rest

Good topic. When I first watched Dallas when it was originally broadcasted, I didn't realise that each episode had an unique title and I didn't discover this until the DVDs were released. So many episodes borrowed from film titles or other film references and some were clever jokes. Here are my top 10 titles:

  1. The Decline and Fall of The Ewing Empire
  2. Lovers and Other Liars
  3. Things Ain't Going Too Good At Southfork
  4. Blast From The Past
  5. Suffer Little Children
  6. Fathers and Other Strangers
  7. Black Market Baby
  8. When The Bough Breaks
  9. Showdown At San Angelo
  10. Hush Hush Sweet Jessie
 
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