1984-85: A season of decline

[Jock Ewing Fan]

For me the declining quality though that season showed very much in the introduction of new characters. In the years prior characters were introduced briefly, left shortly after and when they were brought back on a permanent basis, it felt like having known them for a long(er) time, like a saga.
They did that with Rebecca, Clayton, Afton, Kristen, Katherine or Donna (and probably intended with Gary&Val had KL not materialized).

In 84/85 many new characters were introduced without the same work&thought put into - Jack, Jamie or Mandy Winger appeared all out of the blue with no/contrieved ties. It didn't feel like a saga to say the least. That was sth. which even got worse in the following years - from Matt Cantrall to Vanessa Beaumont.

When Miss Ellie with her new head spoke with her niece Jamie - who we never heard of - about her brother-in-law Jason - who was never mentioned before either - it was just bizarre.

Except that Jack, Jamie and Mandy were integral to major story lines, and gave the characters new relationships to be explored

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

A physical symptom that Season 8 was the very beginning of the end was the new opening titles --- shots of Dallas' cityscape which were brighter (n a way) and yet more overcast. It's a depressingly hazy look compared to the clear, crisp ~February 1978 shots used in the first seven seasons.

And then, just before Donna Reed arrives, Philip Capice's usual episode-ending freeze frame credit suddenly drops from the middle of the screen to the bottom. (And for Season 13, the EP credit at the end of the episode disappears completely).

I mean, I'm all for minor stylistic experimentation. But these things seem to suggest a churning and a need from the show to re-calibrate.

Season 8 should have been an adjustment period for DALLAS, a waystation, a conduit between the series' first half and its second half....

And you could kind of feel that at the time. Even Larry's mother, Mary Martin, described the recasting of Miss Ellie as "kookiie" and for it to occur so "mid-way through" the show.

But, as others have observed, during the last half of DALLAS' run, the show just ceased to grow creatively. Everything from Bobby's death forward was kind of regressive. The Season 10 surge creatively was temporary and amounted to a fond, ghostly "goodbye" just as Pam prepared to drive into oblivion.

That is not what is said. I was trying to say that there was a curiosity factor when Donna Reed was cast as Miss Ellie, and that viewers would have initially been more interested in the character because Donna reed was an iconic actress with an impressive list of credits. C'mon, you are more than capable of understanding what I actually said

Indeed I did understand what you said. But I mostly disagree... And you used the phrase "give her a chance" multiple times regarding Reed. So you may be emotionally vested in something that had no chance (just like the rest of us, wishing it hadn't happened, trying to rationalize how it could've been avoided, 40 years later).

The entry of Donna Reed, due to little fault of her own, was a marker -- a metaphor -- for what was about to happen to the show as a whole.

 

[Grangehill1]

The entire assertion of this post is erroneous.

Dallas was not in decline yet.

Overall Ratings were #2 and 20.97 ratings points.
The previous season was #1 and 21.5 ratings points.
A "decline" of 1 place and barely one quarter of one percent in ratings points.
Any show would have traded spots with Dallas, except for the #1 show, obviously.
Added to the cast was dack Rambo (a seasoned actor), Jenilee Harrison (surprisingly strong performance) and
Deborah Shelton (whose role would be significant for JR, Sue Ellen and Cliff)
Morgan Brittany would play a significant role in events, and William Smithers returned.
And I do think Donna Reed brought some positives to the role, including dressing more fashionably as a wealthy
Texas woman

Decline began in the next season, the Dream Season (Season 9)
Ratings at #6 and 18.8 ratings points, a 10% drop even though BBG returned.
Season 10: Ratings at #11 and 18.6 ratings points, probably would have been worse without Patrick Duffy's return

Obviously, recasting Miss ellie had no detrimental effect on ratings, and BBG's return had no positive effect on ratings.
Yes, BBG was iconic as Miss Ellie, but people didn't watch Dallas to see
what Miss Ellie was doing.
Ironically, there was probably more interest initially to see Donna Reed in the role.
People watched the show for JR, Sue Ellen, Bobby and Pam.
and to some extent, how Cliff would try to defeat Ewing Oil.
Donna , Ray and Miss Ellie were basically good supporting characters.

Again, it was not a season of decline

List of Dallas (1978 TV series) episodes - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ratings aside this WAS the beginning of the decline.

The recasting of Ellie could have worked if they’d gone for anybody apart from Donna Reed whose stilted performance just didn’t sit right. And to make matters worse (which is ironic as Barbara was amazing as Miss Ellie) they then brought the original Ellie back which made the show a complete laughing stock. The character swapped heads twice!!!

The pacing was all a bit off and I don’t think Katzman realized how much John Beck, Morgan Brittany and especially Audrey Landers would be missed. Aside from losing Victoria Principal, the biggest loss on the show was Audrey. They should have done everything to keep Audrey (instead they were obsessed with bringing Patrick Duffy back which creatively didn’t need to happen)

 

[Lastkidpicked]

And then, just before Donna Reed arrives, Philip Capice's usual episode-ending freeze frame credit suddenly drops from the middle of the screen to the bottom.

To quote @James from London

"The credits were so depressed they couldn't make it up from the bottom of the screen."

HAHAHAHAHAHA! Please don't ever change, my friend!

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

Ratings aside this WAS the beginning of the decline.

The recasting of Ellie could have worked if they’d gone for anybody apart from Donna Reed whose stilted performance just didn’t sit right. And to make matters worse (which is ironic as Barbara was amazing as Miss Ellie) they then brought the original Ellie back which made the show a complete laughing stock. The character swapped heads twice!!!

The pacing was all a bit off and I don’t think Katzman realized how much John Beck, Morgan Brittany and especially Audrey Landers would be missed. Aside from losing Victoria Principal, the biggest loss on the show was Audrey. They should have done everything to keep Audrey (instead they were obsessed with bringing Patrick Duffy back which creatively didn’t need to happen)

Recasting core characters in primetime, as has been said before, rarely works. Reed was more jarring because she was so different. But I doubt anyone else would've worked.

Steve Forrest only worked (for some of us) as the new Jock because we were never sure he really was!

I always want Afton as the third Mrs. Bobby Ewing, the pair drawn together after Cliff goes after Michelle, and after Tracey (and benign stalker, April) die in Paris thanks to Hillary Lucci. So, when nuDALLAS pops up in 2012, Bobby & Afton have been married for ~20 years.

People think I'm nuts, but I just see it.

 

[Chris2]

The entire assertion of this post is erroneous.

Dallas was not in decline yet.

Overall Ratings were #2 and 20.97 ratings points.
The previous season was #1 and 21.5 ratings points.

Your interpretation that my post‘s assertion of Dallas’ decline in 1984-85 is about ratings points is erroneous. I judge by quality, not by popularity, and that original post doesn’t refer to ratings at all.

That said, if you’re going to misinterpret the post as being about ratings, then you shouldn’t try refute the post as erroneous by pointing to data that shows the 84-85 season had a ratings decline from 83-84.

”Hey everybody - the original poster is wrong about Dallas declining. Here’s specific data that shows how the ratings went down. No decline there at all!”

 

[DallasFanForever]

I always want Afton as the third Mrs. Bobby Ewing

You’re not alone in this thinking. In rewatches I’ve studied their scenes more closely because of your opinion and I do see something there. In the few scenes they did share, and even with little dialogue, they do have a strong chemistry.

People think I'm nuts, but I just see it.

Well, worse case we’re both nuts then. I stand by my opinion.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

You’re not alone in this thinking. In rewatches I’ve studied their scenes more closely because of your opinion and I do see something there. In the few scenes they did share, and even with little dialogue, they do have a strong chemistry.



Well, worse case we’re both nuts then. I stand by my opinion.

All made worse by the fact that I hated Ann and her casting.

 

[DallasFanForever]

All made worse by the fact that I hated Ann and her casting.

I couldn’t warm up to her as Bobby’s wife. I just couldn’t root for them. Something always seemed off with them from the beginning.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

I couldn’t warm up to her as Bobby’s wife. I just couldn’t root for them. Something always seemed off with them from the beginning.

Brenda Strong struck a contemporary, smug, entitled-victim note that could never work.

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

Your interpretation that my post‘s assertion of Dallas’ decline in 1984-85 is about ratings points is erroneous. I judge by quality, not by popularity, and that original post doesn’t refer to ratings at all.

That said, if you’re going to misinterpret the post as being about ratings, then you shouldn’t try refute the post as erroneous by pointing to data that shows the 84-85 season had a ratings decline from 83-84.

”Hey everybody - the original poster is wrong about Dallas declining. Here’s specific data that shows how the ratings went down. No decline there at all!”

The word decline can be interpreted a a significant downward slide. It was an insignificantly less number, if that makes you any happier.

The dream season saw a ratings decline of 10% (approx)and that is significant, and Dallas never recovered from that.
And quality was still better than season 4 (saved only by Jim Davis in his final year), and it can be asserted that it was at least as good as season 1 and 2.
21.5 to 20.97, number 1 to #2 is less but doesn't constitute a failure.
It is like winning the Super Bowl, and then making to the Super Bowl again, but losing.
It is still a major success of a season, since only two teams can make it.
20.97 to 18.8 and a fall to #6 raises a cause for concern
the following season at 18.6, indicated stagnation.
BBG returned in the Dream season. It didn't help the ratings, apparently.

Patrick Duffy returned in season 10. Ratings were almost the same, unless you consider 18.8 to 18.6 a major "decline"
You didn't take into account the full context of what I said.

In the final analysis, you are simply confirming own confirmation your your own opinion, that is not factual

The original post about a decline in season 8 is erroneous.

A physical symptom that Season 8 was the very beginning of the end was the new opening titles --- shots of Dallas' cityscape which were brighter (n a way) and yet more overcast. It's a depressingly hazy look compared to the clear, crisp ~February 1978 shots used in the first seven seasons.

And then, just before Donna Reed arrives, Philip Capice's usual episode-ending freeze frame credit suddenly drops from the middle of the screen to the bottom. (And for Season 13, the EP credit at the end of the episode disappears completely).

I mean, I'm all for minor stylistic experimentation. But these things seem to suggest a churning and a need from the show to re-calibrate.

Season 8 should have been an adjustment period for DALLAS, a waystation, a conduit between the series' first half and its second half....

And you could kind of feel that at the time. Even Larry's mother, Mary Martin, described the recasting of Miss Ellie as "kookiie" and for it to occur so "mid-way through" the show.

But, as others have observed, during the last half of DALLAS' run, the show just ceased to grow creatively. Everything from Bobby's death forward was kind of regressive. The Season 10 surge creatively was temporary and amounted to a fond, ghostly "goodbye" just as Pam prepared to drive into oblivion.

Indeed I did understand what you said. But I mostly disagree... And you used the phrase "give her a chance" multiple times regarding Reed. So you may be emotionally vested in something that had no chance (just like the rest of us, wishing it hadn't happened, trying to rationalize how it could've been avoided, 40 years later).

The entry of Donna Reed, due to little fault of her own, was a marker -- a metaphor -- for what was about to happen to the show as a whole.

Donna Reed won a Oscar for "From Here to Eternity"
She had an iconic role in "It's a Wonderful Life"
Her career included over 40 films, including a role a the wife/widow of a Texas Rancher in "Backlash" (1956). Sound familiar
"The Donna Reed Show" ran for 8 seasons, and she played a much more proactive Wife/Mother than was common at the time.
She won a Golden Globe, and four Emmy nominations.

Certainly people can prefer BBG, but many act as if DR was a nobody who was cast on a whim.
That is blatantly disrespectful
It seems to me that those are the people who are "emotionally invested" by refusing to respect anyone else in the role
I am asserting that Donna Reed was a good actress with an impressive career, and the facts support that statement
Apparently some people simply refuse to acknowledge it. I guess they are "emotionally invested" in another point of view.

 

[Monzo]

When I watched the season when it originally aired, I thought Eddie and Betty were terrible, but in the rewatch it actually makes a difference that Fredric Lehne and Kathleen York have become actors with a steady career. Suddenly I think both performances were better, maybe i didn't like these characters because their type didn't fit into Dallas?!? Maybe they looked more like Knots Landing?

Did Fredric Lehne and Kathleen York ever comment on their Dallas days? It was the first longer TV stint for both actors.

 

[Rove]

With artificial intelligence, that season could be improved... or not

I'm getting Gwyneth Kate Paltrow vibes

Decline began in the next season, the Dream Season (Season 9)
Ratings at #6 and 18.8 ratings points, a 10% drop even though BBG returned.

I've always been curious if Dallas may have achieved Number 1 status again if the producers and writers went in with a "Scorched Earth" mentality after the death of Bobby. It's now easy to see where Dallas should have headed and as I said in my previous response to @Snarky Oracle! uploaded video of Pam storming JR's office and letting rip; this is where the drama should have focused itself on. Take sides everyone because the battle between the Ewing & Barnes family was well and truly about to heat up.

The pacing was all a bit off and I don’t think Katzman realized how much John Beck, Morgan Brittany and especially Audrey Landers would be missed. Aside from losing Victoria Principal, the biggest loss on the show was Audrey. They should have done everything to keep Audrey (instead they were obsessed with bringing Patrick Duffy back which creatively didn’t need to happen)

And this is what I've always noted about the 1984-85 season. Not just the pacing but the tone is really off. Would Miss Ellie really keep away from Dallas when Bobby is rushed to hospital? No way. Katherine showing up at the hospital to finally do away with her beloved made for one hell of a scary scene (great music score by the way) but she suddenly exited stage left. This was followed quickly with Afton. Rushed in was Mandy Winger and so was Jamie Ewing...all this within the first 4 episodes.

Nothing was making sense to this die-hard fan and the worst decision in the history of Dallas was to come in episode 7. Oh the horror.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

Donna Reed won a Oscar for "From Here to Eternity"
She had an iconic role in "It's a Wonderful Life"
Her career included over 40 films, including a role a the wife/widow of a Texas Rancher in "Backlash" (1956). Sound familiar
"The Donna Reed Show" ran for 8 seasons, and she played a much more proactive Wife/Mother than was common at the time.
She won a Golden Globe, and four Emmy nominations.

Certainly people can prefer BBG, but many act as if DR was a nobody who was cast on a whim.
That is blatantly disrespectful
It seems to me that those are the people who are "emotionally invested" by refusing to respect anyone else in the role
I am asserting that Donna Reed was a good actress with an impressive career, and the facts support that statement
Apparently some people simply refuse to acknowledge it. I guess they are "emotionally invested" in another point of view.

But who's doing those things? I don't hear too many people denying the accomplishments of Donna Reed, nor that she was mistreated by the executives (and some others) attached to the show.

But most feel her version of Ellie didn't work.

 

[Grangehill1]

The word decline can be interpreted a a significant downward slide. It was an insignificantly less number, if that makes you any happier.

The dream season saw a ratings decline of 10% (approx)and that is significant, and Dallas never recovered from that.
And quality was still better than season 4 (saved only by Jim Davis in his final year), and it can be asserted that it was at least as good as season 1 and 2.
21.5 to 20.97, number 1 to #2 is less but doesn't constitute a failure.
It is like winning the Super Bowl, and then making to the Super Bowl again, but losing.
It is still a major success of a season, since only two teams can make it.
20.97 to 18.8 and a fall to #6 raises a cause for concern
the following season at 18.6, indicated stagnation.
BBG returned in the Dream season. It didn't help the ratings, apparently.

Patrick Duffy returned in season 10. Ratings were almost the same, unless you consider 18.8 to 18.6 a major "decline"
You didn't take into account the full context of what I said.

In the final analysis, you are simply confirming own confirmation your your own opinion, that is not factual

The original post about a decline in season 8 is erroneous.


Donna Reed won a Oscar for "From Here to Eternity"
She had an iconic role in "It's a Wonderful Life"
Her career included over 40 films, including a role a the wife/widow of a Texas Rancher in "Backlash" (1956). Sound familiar
"The Donna Reed Show" ran for 8 seasons, and she played a much more proactive Wife/Mother than was common at the time.
She won a Golden Globe, and four Emmy nominations.

Certainly people can prefer BBG, but many act as if DR was a nobody who was cast on a whim.
That is blatantly disrespectful
It seems to me that those are the people who are "emotionally invested" by refusing to respect anyone else in the role
I am asserting that Donna Reed was a good actress with an impressive career, and the facts support that statement
Apparently some people simply refuse to acknowledge it. I guess they are "emotionally invested" in another point of view.

Nobody disputes the quality of Donna Reed’s work. But was she right for Dallas? Was her performance right for Dallas?
The character she was portraying was SO different to the Ellie that we were used to that there was bound to be a backlash.
Her performance IS stilted and somewhat wooden which is bizarre when she’s such a good actress

 

[xab]

Who decided she would portray Miss Ellie the way she did ? Did she have this kind of "power" ? Whatever happened backstage ? Do we have reliable answers ? Was she purposely doomed from the beginning for some reasons ?

At least the dream explanation was a dream (whether you like it or loathe it) but this Miss Ellie from the The Twilight Zone was supposed to be for real. And she still is.

GillesDenver may be joking, he points out what could have been... Not a perfect recast, but a bit more convincing...

 

[Seaviewer]

Bobby's death was likely the right time to end DALLAS, but I do not want to miss Season 10 (per DVD).

Season 10 makes an interesting postscript. Reality ends with Bobby's death; here's how that year might have played out if "none of that happened."

Donna Reed would have been given a better chance if they'd brought her in as another character.

In another thread, it was discussed how Clayton always remained an interloper. The same would have applied to any new character that Reed might have played. As imperfect as the result was, she had to be Ellie.

Would Miss Ellie really keep away from Dallas when Bobby is rushed to hospital? No way.

It was not her choice, Clayton kept the news from her.

 

[CeeCee72]

A while ago, I did a binge re-watch of Dallas with my youngest child who had never seen the show before. Her perspective on the Donna Reed re-cast really made me stop and think. It didn't really seem to bother her as much as it does us for hard fans. She made some off hand comment about how maybe Ellie changed her style to be more attractive to her new husband. She also enjoyed watching Ellie struggle with Clayton's insecurities about Jock.

We skipped the dream season and went straight to season 10. I have to tell you, until then, Ellie was one of her favorite characters, but she felt like Ellie was never the same after BBG came back.

Of course, we went back and watched the dream season last and she loved BBG again. She said the "real" Miss Ellie was back.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

As imperfect as the result was, she had to be Ellie.

But why? That's how the executives rationalized it in 1984.

Do you think the mess it created was somehow worth it?

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

But why? That's how the executives rationalized it in 1984.

Do you think the mess it created was somehow worth it?

It was not a mess. No Matter who played Miss Ellie, it didn't effect any primary storyline, or even a secondary one.
Th new battle for Ewing Oil with Cliff/Jamie and Jack, Katherine's pursuit of Bobby, the JR/Sue Ellen/Mandy Winger, the JR/Cliff/Mandy Winger,
Sly, Jenna and Naldo all could have been the same without Miss Ellie and Clayton.

BBG is a fine actress but people didn't watch the show each week to see Miss Ellie. They watched for JR, Bobby, Pam and Sue Ellen, as well as any challenge to Eing Oil which usually included Cliff.

Dallas was #2 in the ratings. Hardly a mess.