Katzman - more bad than good?

[Grangehill1]

I couldn’t buy the fact that she ever would, especially for the sakes of her son and Miss Ellie. I can’t see Sue Ellen releasing a movie that would ever hurt either one of them. It would’ve been totally out of character.

A while ago I watched series 11 and 12 back to back and one thing that really stuck out was Su Ellen and the movie revenge plot literally came out of nowhere. Revenge for what?

Sue Ellen had already got her revenge on JR in series 11. She’d stopped him getting hold of West Star. But then JR kidnapped John Ross. But then Sue Ellen shot him, divorced him AND won custody of John Ross.
I couldn’t understand why she still wanted revenge?

 

[Bobby Southworth]

The worst season finale. The whole idea of the movie didn't make sense because it was hard to believe Sue Ellen would ever release it. Sue Ellen was such a great character. She deserved a better exit.

I also agree on this. I was only 11 at the time, and even I couldn't believe it was a cliffhanger, and her last episode. The previous cliffhanger, with Nicholas Pierce falling off the balcony was the first Dallas cliffhanger I ever saw, and this one just didn't compare.

 

[Bobby Southworth]

Let me just add, I think the idea of the movie was more for nostalgia purposes than anything, being Gray's last season. It was successful in that aspect, and showing everything she went through being married to JR. However, I also agree she would have never released it because of John Ross and Miss Ellie. Perhaps she never intended to. I think Dallas, at that point, was trying to remind us of the glory days. Then the next season, they tried to rejuvenate the series with new actors and such, but unfortunately it mostly didn't take off.

 

[DallasFanForever]

I think Dallas, at that point, was trying to remind us of the glory days

I think when we’re enjoying the flashback scenes more than the current ones it’s a good sign the end may be closer than we think.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

I also agree on this. I was only 11 at the time, and even I couldn't believe it was a cliffhanger, and her last episode. The previous cliffhanger, with Nicholas Pierce falling off the balcony was the first Dallas cliffhanger I ever saw, and this one just didn't compare.

I saw Patrick on a talk show in 1988 and he said that the shooting of JR by SueEllen was probably the last time DALLAS would have "that kind of cllffhanger" and also said he couldn't see the show going passed 1991.

So the decision to turn the show into what it became was seemingly conscious and deliberate, but just why is a mystery to me.... But anyone who cited killing April in the final season when the audience was already gone as his "biggest mistake" in the history of the program, as Katzman did,, had simply lost his perspective.

 

[Sarah]

I couldn’t buy the fact that she ever would, especially for the sakes of her son and Miss Ellie. I can’t see Sue Ellen releasing a movie that would ever hurt either one of them. It would’ve been totally out of character.

This is true but deep down she would never have done that to JR either. The threat was enough.

 

[Toni]

It really was a "cartoon" towards the end.

Oh yeah...

Starring Duffy Duck...​

 

[cws]

Oh yeah...

View attachment 34239

Starring Duffy Duck...​

Too funny!!

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

This is true but deep down she would never have done that to JR either. The threat was enough.

And deep down she'd never shoot him.

 

[Jimmy Todd]

And deep down she'd never shoot him.

Would there be a difference since shooting him was in the heat of the moment, she wanted to get John Ross back and Nicholas was involved and adding to the fire with his fatal fight with JR? The movie was spread out over almost a year. It gave her more time to think.
She wanted to shoot him once before she divorced him, but Kristen intervened. A year or so later she remarried him. Who knows what Sue Ellen would do when it came to JR.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

Would there be a difference since shooting him was in the heat of the moment, she wanted to get John Ross back and Nicholas was involved and adding to the fire with his fatal fight with JR? The movie was spread out over almost a year. It gave her more time to think.
She wanted to shoot him once before she divorced him, but Kristen intervened. A year or so later she remarried him. Who knows what Sue Ellen would do when it came to JR.

Yes, and an off-screen Sue Ellen releasing the movie (after JR runs off Cally) and the resulting scandal would have been a promising storyline.

 

[Jimmy Todd]

Yes, and an off-screen Sue Ellen releasing the movie (after JR runs off Cally) and the resulting scandal would have been a promising storyline.

Definitely a good idea for a storyline !

 

[DallasFanForever]

This is true but deep down she would never have done that to JR either. The threat was enough.

I think you’re right about that. Holding it over his head was one thing but ultimately I can’t see her doing that to him either. But if the movie ever did see the light of day, now that could’ve been explosive!

 

[pete lashmar]

Dallas was a worldwide success and one of the biggest shows on the planet, at some point it had to start failing no matter who was in charge.

Had they brought someone brand new in the changes we saw could have been far worse, then again, for the final 2 seasons they may have got new actors who could actually act and develop plots that were engrossing - so who knows what would have happened.

I agree with all the point the OP stated and for me they way handled Pam's exit was probably their biggest mistake, but with hindsight you can kind of understand why.

Miss Ellie had been recast and then BBG came back - Bobby was killed off and then came back - Jock had been killed off and then "sort of" came back - and they really believed that they could have got Victoria back too and so left it open.

But their biggest mistake was how they did it, it was farcical, unrealistic and stupid - no one would have survived that crash and explosion.

By the time we got to season 12 the show was pretty much dead and give or take a few good ideas the show just wasn't any good any more.

But as to who was to blame, well I think anyone who has been a showrunner for too long eventually loses their focus, but the studio bosses have to take some responsibility too - and certainly whoever was in charge of casting needed to be fired.

The show didn't write well for the women of Dallas, but they were still strong focal figures who drove many of the plots, when Susan and Victoria went it left a void that was eventually replaced with something far far worse.

For me Dallas should have ended when *VP left, everything after that is very much hit and miss and the audience were expected to believe whatever the writers wanted to throw at them....and they didn't - they turned off and tuned out.

* VP's exit should have been a completely different kind of cliffhanger.

ALSO - The idea of JR acually ending up in an asylum would have been a brilliant end for the character, mirroring what he did to Sue Ellen. But his journey to getting there would have to have been different.

That Said...JR should have gone out on top, not putting a gun to his head in the worse series finale ever seen on television.

 

[Luke_Krebbs_Ewing]

Most of the scenarios you've pointed out occurred after the departure of Phil Capice. Hmmmm...makes me wonder.

I honestly think the show was at it's best when Katzman was the Producer and Capice was the Executive Producer.

With the benefit of hindsight I think it was a terrible mistake to drop Capice and promote Katzman into his position of Executive Producer.

The show was better with Capice as the Exec in my opinion.

 

[Sarah]

And deep down she'd never shoot him.

And deep down I know you'll always come back with a cracker.

 

[Luke_Krebbs_Ewing]

I also agree on this. I was only 11 at the time, and even I couldn't believe it was a cliffhanger, and her last episode. The previous cliffhanger, with Nicholas Pierce falling off the balcony was the first Dallas cliffhanger I ever saw, and this one just didn't compare.

When they made the 2004 retrospective Dallas Reunion: The Return To Southfork they did a countdown of the top ten Dallas cliffhangers., that one with Sue Ellen going off with Don Lockwood didn't make the list!! Speaks volumes, doesn't it!?!

 

[cws]

When they made the 2004 retrospective Dallas Reunion: The Return To Southfork they did a countdown of the top ten Dallas cliffhangers., that one with Sue Ellen going off with Don Lockwood didn't make the list!! Speaks volumes, doesn't it!?!

So true!! I didn't like Don Lockwood.

 

[Luke_Krebbs_Ewing]

Oh yeah...

View attachment 34239

Starring Duffy Duck...​

The great Daffy Duck who later became an unofficial Executive Story Consultant on the TNT Dallas sequel series.

I honestly think Daffy tried to duck out of assisting Cidre in any way because he loved the Lorimar Dallas.

I think Cidre was just a quack who hadn't a clue, whereas Katzman was just burnt out (like pressed duck!) on the original show!

 

[Luke_Krebbs_Ewing]

So true!! I didn't like Don Lockwood.

I quite enjoyed Ian McShane on Dallas but I actually think he was wasted in the role.

Still, I am glad he did Dallas because he later cast Linda Gray on his show Lovejoy and that wouldn't have happened without him appearing on Dallas.