Mary Tyler Moore Show and Its Spin-Offs

Crimson

Telly Talk Enthusiast
LV
2
 
Awards
9
I read somewhere that the character played by Ted Bessell in two episodes of MTM was supposed to become a regular but the plans fell through when he became unavailable for some reason

Presumably something personal; it doesn't appear that Bessell had a professional conflict, since IMDB shows a 4 year gap after MTM and his next project. The book on MTM's production makes no mention of the actor or the character. His casting seemed intentional and important, since he had played the boyfriend on THAT GIRL, one of MTM's primary inspirations.

The producers did say that each time they wrote and cast a suitor for Mary, they thought he was "the one" -- only to be disappointed by the results on screen.
 

Mel O'Drama

Admin
LV
16
 
Awards
44
That dissatisfaction may have been rooted in the network dictate to marry Rhoda and Joe almost immediately, rather than allowing the relationship to develop organically.

Alternately, I wonder if they ever would have allowed Joe and Rhoda to develop if left to their own

The marriage certainly felt rushed, and I'm sure that would have been the case had I watched at the original weekly pace. A month and a half between the air dates of their first meeting and the wedding is bonkers, even allowing for a time lapse here and there. It did diminish the character of Rhoda in my eyes for a time, because of the way it was written (presumably necessarily, to move the story from Point A to Point B as quickly as possible).

Since it's happened I've felt fine with the setup, but I can see how the network pushing for the early marriage took away a lot of material. If the creators had a vision in mind based on the independent Rhoda we knew from MTM, it's understandable they may lose interest when it became a series about a newly-married couple.
 

Crimson

Telly Talk Enthusiast
LV
2
 
Awards
9
Having finished my rewatch of MTM, I'm giving PHYLLIS a go. I'll eschew reviews so as not to spoil anything for Mel, so instead some of the backstage dramas that resulted in PHYLLIS:

If the MTM producers had been reluctant to spinoff Rhoda, they were downright resistant to doing the same with Phyllis. How could a character whose defining traits made her a pain-in-the-ass be the center of a series? Even worse, Cloris, like Phyllis, was something of a pain-in-the-ass. A Method actress, she often held up production of MTM while obsessing with minutia of her performance. Because she was only a recurring character, the producers thought the payoff was worth the pain; but to build an entire show around such an exacting actress? They didn't have much choice though. By the mid-70s, Cloris was at a career high having won an Oscar and a few Emmys. If MTM Production didn't build a show around Cloris, another company would have.

Cloris was indeed known to be difficult on the PHYLLIS set, particularly in how she tried to control performances of the other actors to shift the focus to herself (how Phyllis!) You can see the results of this on screen. In the two episodes I watched, the other actors are all curiously muted as if they're just standing around waiting for Cloris to do something funny. The star of the show may have been the show's undoing.

One direct commentary on the show, which does not bode well: it has obnoxiously loud audience laughter. This is one of those sitcoms where the audience laughs -- real or "sweetened" -- at everything that happens, even when it's not remotely amusing. It makes the show feel desperate.
 
Last edited:

Mel O'Drama

Admin
LV
16
 
Awards
44
Mary Tyler Moore
Season Six
Edie Gets Married / Mary Moves Out / Mary’s Father / Murray In Love / Ted’s Moment Of Glory / Mary’s Aunt / Chuckles Bites The Dust / Mary’s Delinquent / Ted’s Wedding / Lou Douses An Old Flame / Mary Richards Falls In Love / Ted’s Tax Refund / The Happy Homemaker Takes Lou Home


Happily, most of the reservations I had about MTM during the last season have vanished and I’ve enjoyed the first half of the Sixth Season. I wouldn't say it’s the series at its finest, but it’s certainly had its moments and remains a nice, fairly comforting way to pass the time.

Beyond the first couple of episodes, the new apartment has actually been a fairly easy adjustment for me. My biggest gripe was that there was no real closure for me as a viewer with the old apartment. Yes, it was seen at the beginning of Season Seven, but it was never seen again once Mary decided to move (a decision taken away from the apartment, if I remember correctly), so there was no “goodbye” scene. It didn’t help that I’d forgotten this change was about to happen, so it jarred me in the way I imagine it might have done the original audience.

Now it’s done, though, I’m pleasantly surprised that I haven’t missed that classic set very much. I put this down to there being no Rhoda, Phyllis or Bess. Somehow with the new set, regular visits from the WJM crowd feels less intrusive and more logical. I can’t remember if anything’s been mentioned but I’ve rationalised it that the new apartment is closer to the city, and so probably also to the studio and perhaps even the homes of other characters. When Georgette had a one-to-one conversation with Mary at the old apartment, I found myself constantly wishing it was Rhoda. In the new location that hasn’t happened. I’m enjoying Georgette more than I have in some time, so the move is improving my relationship with the remaining characters.

Some stories feel a little repetitious or familiar. Ted looking at an apartment in Mary’s building, for example. Or Murray’s crush on Mary which we’ve previously seen with another of her colleagues (Ted again, I think). The latter in particular just felt like disposable, plot-driven sitcom fare where characters act in ways that serves the story of the week rather than in a way that feels truthful. Sadly, this was also another strike against Murray who I just struggle to “get” as a character. As things have gone along, he’s proved to be a bad friend, a bad colleague, a poor father and (more than once) a bad husband. I don’t watch television for puritanical morality, but because I just don’t get what Murray is about beyond an endless string of snarky put-downs I find it more difficult to accept. Conversely, Sue Ann’s acidic comments are a divine joy and never fail to make me smile.

Having watched it, I feel I should mention Chuckles Bites The Dust, but at the same time I’m not sure I have anything profound to say about it. I enjoyed that it explored attitudes towards death and the tendency in Western society to use inappropriate humour as a coping mechanism in response to death. I thought it came together well in the second half and I thought it was a good episode. That said, watching it with “the best American sitcom episode ever”, it had a lot to live up to and I don’t feel it did this. Watching in this context, it read to me as simply one of a number of very enjoyable episodes over the course of the series. Which is still no bad thing.

There was a piece of real-life fun to come from watching the episode. Yesterday I was at a nature reserve. The canteen area had a vaulted ceiling from which hung a huge mobile of different leaves. I found myself smiling and said to my partner (who has been watching along with me) “I think Sue Ann’s been here” before nodding at the mobile. It gave the pair of us a laugh, even though the display in question was much more pretty and tasteful than Sue Ann’s food group effort.
 

Mel O'Drama

Admin
LV
16
 
Awards
44
Having finished my rewatch of MTM, I'm giving PHYLLIS a go. I'll eschew reviews so as not to spoil anything for Mel

Oh great. I'm aiming to begin Phyllis after MTM S6.

Please don't hold back on comments or reviews on my account. I'm not overly worried about spoilers with this kind of series, and I have read about the basic premise. I can always skip what's read and come back to it later.



she tried to control performances of the other actors to shift the focus to herself (how Phyllis!) You can see the results of this on screen. In the two episodes I watched, the other actors are all curiously muted as if they're just standing around waiting for Cloris to do something funny. The star of the show may have been the show's undoing.

I'll look out for this when I begin watching.



This is one of those sitcoms where the audience laughs -- real or "sweetened" -- at everything that happens, even when it's not remotely amusing. It makes the show feel desperate.

Oh dear. That can have the opposite effect. Probably by virtue of not watching as many sitcoms recently, I seem to notice the studio audience these days more than I used to.

Along similar lines, one of my bugbears is when there's one person (or a couple of people) with a particularly loud, annoying or distinguishable laugh (or any combination of these). It becomes hugely distracting, and I sometimes wonder if it's done with intent so that person can go home and hear themselves the show.
 

Crimson

Telly Talk Enthusiast
LV
2
 
Awards
9
the new apartment has actually been a fairly easy adjustment for me.

I'm a bit more ambivalent about it and find the change to by symbolic of all the many changes on MTM. Mary moving to a new apartment is entirely organic to the story and character. With Rhoda and Phyllis gone, there was nothing keeping Mary in the same apartment. Being more successful, it makes sense that Mary would want a bigger place. The original apartment set was cozy, distinct and personal. The new apartment set was none of those things; I find it generic, cold and functional. Each evolution of MTM just slowly chipped away at what made the earlier seasons magical.

Some stories feel a little repetitious or familiar.

I have long felt that the ideal duration of a scripted TV show is 5 years; after that, it's either going to be repetitious and/or change too much. Some shows can hold the quality together for a few additional seasons, even if the repetition and/or changes start to become slightly problematic. After that, it's all downhill.

Sadly, this was also another strike against Murray who I just struggle to “get” as a character.

I've never really thought about Murray in a negative light, but I also can't disagree with any of your objections to the character. I suppose Gavin McLeod's inherent likability did some heavy lifting to make Murray seem like a good guy, even while his actions often said otherwise.

But you've touched on what was my thematic premise in discussing the show originally: the characters evolve and I don't always find the evolution to be all that enjoyable. So here's my hot take about MTM: I often dislike Mary Richards in the last two seasons. This is mostly due to a shift in Moore's performance; she added a sour quality to Mary that I find unlikable. I suppose as the character evolved, her earlier comedic aces-in-the-hole -- fumbling, stammering insecurity and occasionally even crying -- weren't as appropriate. I think Moore went too far in the opposite direction. In the early seasons, Mary always responded to Ted, Phyllis and Sue Ann with bemusement. In seasons six and seven, Mary often responded to Ted and Sue Ann with a sneering attitude that I dislike immensely.

Please don't hold back on comments or reviews on my account. I'm not overly worried about spoilers with this kind of series, and I have read about the basic premise. I can always skip what's read and come back to it later.

I'm six or seven episodes in and there's much less to potentially spoil than I imagined. And that's part of the problem, I think; the show isn't really about anything. I think sitcoms succeed based on two qualities: the premise and the cast. PHYILLS fails on both.

The show starts with a solid idea: Phyllis as a widow, making her more sympathetic. And then the character immediately moves in with her very well-to-do in-laws, removing any comedic/dramatic challenges of Phyllis trying to "make it on her own". Neither her homelife nor job offer any potential. The two characters are home at vague and pleasant; the two characters at work are vague and less pleasant. Unlike a TV newsroom, a photography studio doesn't open up many story possibilities. I'm already tired of these characters bickering over how to photograph an inanimate object.

Barbara Colby, in the first three episodes, at least offered some personality even if she seemed muted compared to her two appearances on MTM. Even though I knew the recast was coming, I still found it jarring. Although I have enjoyed Liz Torres in other TV shows, I've disliked her in every appearance on PHYLLIS so far.

The biggest frustration with PHYLLIS is they had a great premise staring right at them, and they skipped it: the eccentric, irresponsible mother and the level-headed teenage daughter. The show seems to go out of its way to avoid the Phyllis-Bess relationship. Even the episode ostensibly about Bess still managed to under-utilize Lisa Gerritsen.

Alternately, the show might have learned some lessons from MAUDE, which PHYLLIS slightly resembles; a manic, over-the-top central character surrounded by a supporting cast mostly there to react. But somehow PHYLLIS takes all of MAUDE's weaknesses and makes them worse.

Heavy criticisms aside, the show isn't really bad. I've certainly seen much worse American sitcoms. But it's not good either. One thing I will say in the show's defense: every episode has built up to and ended with one big laugh (always Phyllis', naturally; even when she was off-screen for one of them). I'm not sure if this will continue, but so far it seems like a deliberate story structure to climax the episode with a solid punchline, even while the rest of the episode was tepid.

I suppose I'll keep watching, but my pace has already slowed.

Along similar lines, one of my bugbears is when there's one person (or a couple of people) with a particularly loud, annoying or distinguishable laugh (or any combination of these).

Like a film score, I think the best audience reaction / laugh tracks are the ones you don't quite notice. I just watched all seven seasons of MTM and I was barely aware of the audience laughter; it mostly just seamlessly blended into the show.

The only exception I make are the various LUCY sitcoms, which has a very distinct woman's laughter in the audience. It was Lucy's mom who was at the filming of every episode, which I find sweet.
 

Jock Ewing Fan

Telly Talk Star
LV
0
 
Awards
8
I'm a bit more ambivalent about it and find the change to by symbolic of all the many changes on MTM. Mary moving to a new apartment is entirely organic to the story and character. With Rhoda and Phyllis gone, there was nothing keeping Mary in the same apartment. Being more successful, it makes sense that Mary would want a bigger place. The original apartment set was cozy, distinct and personal. The new apartment set was none of those things; I find it generic, cold and functional. Each evolution of MTM just slowly chipped away at what made the earlier seasons magical.



I have long felt that the ideal duration of a scripted TV show is 5 years; after that, it's either going to be repetitious and/or change too much. Some shows can hold the quality together for a few additional seasons, even if the repetition and/or changes start to become slightly problematic. After that, it's all downhill.



I've never really thought about Murray in a negative light, but I also can't disagree with any of your objections to the character. I suppose Gavin McLeod's inherent likability did some heavy lifting to make Murray seem like a good guy, even while his actions often said otherwise.

But you've touched on what was my thematic premise in discussing the show originally: the characters evolve and I don't always find the evolution to be all that enjoyable. So here's my hot take about MTM: I often dislike Mary Richards in the last two seasons. This is mostly due to a shift in Moore's performance; she added a sour quality to Mary that I find unlikable. I suppose as the character evolved, her earlier comedic aces-in-the-hole -- fumbling, stammering insecurity and occasionally even crying -- weren't as appropriate. I think Moore went too far in the opposite direction. In the early seasons, Mary always responded to Ted, Phyllis and Sue Ann with bemusement. In seasons six and seven, Mary often responded to Ted and Sue Ann with a sneering attitude that I dislike immensely.



I'm six or seven episodes in and there's much less to potentially spoil than I imagined. And that's part of the problem, I think; the show isn't really about anything. I think sitcoms succeed based on two qualities: the premise and the cast. PHYILLS fails on both.

The show starts with a solid idea: Phyllis as a widow, making her more sympathetic. And then the character immediately moves in with her very well-to-do in-laws, removing any comedic/dramatic challenges of Phyllis trying to "make it on her own". Neither her homelife nor job offer any potential. The two characters are home at vague and pleasant; the two characters at work are vague and less pleasant. Unlike a TV newsroom, a photography studio doesn't open up many story possibilities. I'm already tired of these characters bickering over how to photograph an inanimate object.

Barbara Colby, in the first three episodes, at least offered some personality even if she seemed muted compared to her two appearances on MTM. Even though I knew the recast was coming, I still found it jarring. Although I have enjoyed Liz Torres in other TV shows, I've disliked her in every appearance on PHYLLIS so far.

The biggest frustration with PHYLLIS is they had a great premise staring right at them, and they skipped it: the eccentric, irresponsible mother and the level-headed teenage daughter. The show seems to go out of its way to avoid the Phyllis-Bess relationship. Even the episode ostensibly about Bess still managed to under-utilize Lisa Gerritsen.

Alternately, the show might have learned some lessons from MAUDE, which PHYLLIS slightly resembles; a manic, over-the-top central character surrounded by a supporting cast mostly there to react. But somehow PHYLLIS takes all of MAUDE's weaknesses and makes them worse.

Heavy criticisms aside, the show isn't really bad. I've certainly seen much worse American sitcoms. But it's not good either. One thing I will say in the show's defense: every episode has built up to and ended with one big laugh (always Phyllis', naturally; even when she was off-screen for one of them). I'm not sure if this will continue, but so far it seems like a deliberate story structure to climax the episode with a solid punchline, even while the rest of the episode was tepid.

I suppose I'll keep watching, but my pace has already slowed.



Like a film score, I think the best audience reaction / laugh tracks are the ones you don't quite notice. I just watched all seven seasons of MTM and I was barely aware of the audience laughter; it mostly just seamlessly blended into the show.

The only exception I make are the various LUCY sitcoms, which has a very distinct woman's laughter in the audience. It was Lucy's mom who was at the filming of every episode, which I find sweet.
You make some interesting observations.

Some of my own

Never liked Phyllis, but maybe that was the point of the character

While still good, not as good without Rhoda. Mary's best friend seemed to be Murray, after Rhoda departed.
Not the same

Gavin MacLeod was a terrific actor who played many good roles.
I always found Murray's attitude toward Ted to be a bit too mean-spirited.

Ted Knight, also a terrific actor who played many roles, was my favorite on the show. He portrayed Ted with a kind of likeable buffoonery,
and didn't overact, which could be tendency for such a character

I thought Mary's character grew stronger in later years, not as unlikeable as you sggest (respectfully).
I think that as Mary grew older, it was a natural evolution for the character to be a bit more
wordly, for lack of a better word.
 

Mel O'Drama

Admin
LV
16
 
Awards
44
I'm a bit more ambivalent about it and find the change to by symbolic of all the many changes on MTM.

This makes sense to me.


The original apartment set was cozy, distinct and personal. The new apartment set was none of those things; I find it generic, cold and functional.

I'd agree with this. I wouldn't say I find it cold, but generic and functional certainly fits. Early on in my viewing I commented how much I enjoyed the apartment set. It looked like somewhere I'd be happy to spend some time or even live. The new one looks as though it could be anywhere, and feels much more impersonal. The only aesthetic feature I've noticed is the (very of its time) tiling in the kitchen, and that only evoked a kind of nostalgia in me because it's similar to one the tile behind the cold meat counter in a nearby supermarket when I was young.



I suppose Gavin McLeod's inherent likability did some heavy lifting to make Murray seem like a good guy, even while his actions often said otherwise.

I've wondered if these mixed signals are actually the cause of the problem for me.



I often dislike Mary Richards in the last two seasons. This is mostly due to a shift in Moore's performance; she added a sour quality to Mary that I find unlikable.

I've raised eyebrows a couple of times at some of those sneering responses she's given. At times it's felt the writers have confused assertiveness with just plain brittle.

The final scene of the episode with Ted's tax returns hinged on all of his colleagues building him up to give him an "out" before throwing him under the bus by withdrawing any potential help. While it was in character for Mary to have a problem with lying even to save his hide, the way she toyed with him before (again) leaving him hanging felt as though it crossed a line into cruelty.




the show isn't really about anything. I think sitcoms succeed based on two qualities: the premise and the cast. PHYILLS fails on both.

Oh, shame. Thinking about it, I'd probably struggle to describe the premise of Rhoda to someone, so perhaps it's the law of diminishing returns.

Fortunately, I think Rhoda's cast is an area where it's succeeded and that gets it through.
 

Soaplover

Telly Talk Fan
LV
0
 
Awards
3
I'm a bit more ambivalent about it and find the change to by symbolic of all the many changes on MTM. Mary moving to a new apartment is entirely organic to the story and character. With Rhoda and Phyllis gone, there was nothing keeping Mary in the same apartment. Being more successful, it makes sense that Mary would want a bigger place. The original apartment set was cozy, distinct and personal. The new apartment set was none of those things; I find it generic, cold and functional. Each evolution of MTM just slowly chipped away at what made the earlier seasons magical.



I have long felt that the ideal duration of a scripted TV show is 5 years; after that, it's either going to be repetitious and/or change too much. Some shows can hold the quality together for a few additional seasons, even if the repetition and/or changes start to become slightly problematic. After that, it's all downhill.



I've never really thought about Murray in a negative light, but I also can't disagree with any of your objections to the character. I suppose Gavin McLeod's inherent likability did some heavy lifting to make Murray seem like a good guy, even while his actions often said otherwise.

But you've touched on what was my thematic premise in discussing the show originally: the characters evolve and I don't always find the evolution to be all that enjoyable. So here's my hot take about MTM: I often dislike Mary Richards in the last two seasons. This is mostly due to a shift in Moore's performance; she added a sour quality to Mary that I find unlikable. I suppose as the character evolved, her earlier comedic aces-in-the-hole -- fumbling, stammering insecurity and occasionally even crying -- weren't as appropriate. I think Moore went too far in the opposite direction. In the early seasons, Mary always responded to Ted, Phyllis and Sue Ann with bemusement. In seasons six and seven, Mary often responded to Ted and Sue Ann with a sneering attitude that I dislike immensely.



I'm six or seven episodes in and there's much less to potentially spoil than I imagined. And that's part of the problem, I think; the show isn't really about anything. I think sitcoms succeed based on two qualities: the premise and the cast. PHYILLS fails on both.

The show starts with a solid idea: Phyllis as a widow, making her more sympathetic. And then the character immediately moves in with her very well-to-do in-laws, removing any comedic/dramatic challenges of Phyllis trying to "make it on her own". Neither her homelife nor job offer any potential. The two characters are home at vague and pleasant; the two characters at work are vague and less pleasant. Unlike a TV newsroom, a photography studio doesn't open up many story possibilities. I'm already tired of these characters bickering over how to photograph an inanimate object.

Barbara Colby, in the first three episodes, at least offered some personality even if she seemed muted compared to her two appearances on MTM. Even though I knew the recast was coming, I still found it jarring. Although I have enjoyed Liz Torres in other TV shows, I've disliked her in every appearance on PHYLLIS so far.

The biggest frustration with PHYLLIS is they had a great premise staring right at them, and they skipped it: the eccentric, irresponsible mother and the level-headed teenage daughter. The show seems to go out of its way to avoid the Phyllis-Bess relationship. Even the episode ostensibly about Bess still managed to under-utilize Lisa Gerritsen.

Alternately, the show might have learned some lessons from MAUDE, which PHYLLIS slightly resembles; a manic, over-the-top central character surrounded by a supporting cast mostly there to react. But somehow PHYLLIS takes all of MAUDE's weaknesses and makes them worse.

Heavy criticisms aside, the show isn't really bad. I've certainly seen much worse American sitcoms. But it's not good either. One thing I will say in the show's defense: every episode has built up to and ended with one big laugh (always Phyllis', naturally; even when she was off-screen for one of them). I'm not sure if this will continue, but so far it seems like a deliberate story structure to climax the episode with a solid punchline, even while the rest of the episode was tepid.

I suppose I'll keep watching, but my pace has already slowed.



Like a film score, I think the best audience reaction / laugh tracks are the ones you don't quite notice. I just watched all seven seasons of MTM and I was barely aware of the audience laughter; it mostly just seamlessly blended into the show.

The only exception I make are the various LUCY sitcoms, which has a very distinct woman's laughter in the audience. It was Lucy's mom who was at the filming of every episode, which I find sweet.

Barbara Colby and Cloris had a good rapport/chemistry that I'm sure would have continued to develop had real life hadn't sadly happened to her. I could have seen her being more of a Rhoda foil type for Phyllis.. while Liz Torres didn't have the same presence as Barbara Colby nor the chemistry with Cloris.

Oddly season 1 was highly rated.. higher rated then either MTM and Rhoda so viewers obviously enjoyed some aspects of the show in season 1.. though it is a struggle to watch some weeks compared to Rhoda in season 1 and 2.
 

Crimson

Telly Talk Enthusiast
LV
2
 
Awards
9
Ted Knight, also a terrific actor who played many roles, was my favorite on the show. He portrayed Ted with a kind of likeable buffoonery,
and didn't overact, which could be tendency for such a character

Ted Baxter was the broadest and most potentially cartoonish of MTM's characters. so it's impressive that Knight managed to keep him believable and likeable. Hard to imagine the other actors considered for the role -- Jack Cassidy, Lyle Waggoner -- bringing the same nuance to Ted Baxter.

I wouldn't say I find it cold, but generic and functional certainly fits.

Cold might be harsh, but I find it the opposite of cozy. Apparently the new apartment bothered someone even more than me, since she wrote a whole article on Psychology Today about it.

"f Mary’s original apartment was a dress, the new one was a suit. The old one was soft, the new one hard."

I don't have the best eye for such things, but I don't think they re-used any furniture from the original set in the new apartment (except, obviously, for the M on the wall). Keeping the same furniture may have helped warm up the new set. Plus, it's pretty implausible for someone to just buy all new furniture after they move.

Mary’s Aunt

Just noticed you passed this episode, with two noteworthy aspects. Flo Meredith is the only character from MTM to appear on the drama LOU GRANT. I have no interest in watching that show, but one of these days I'll check out that particular episode. If nothing else, I'm curious to see if there's any reference to MTM.

The episode also starts some obvious revisionism of Mary's past, establishing that Mary had always wanted to be a journalist and was inspired by her aunt. Of course, there's no indication of this earlier in the series. Mary applied for a job as a secretary in the first episode, and there was no hint that she was specifically interested in TV journalism. When she later started taking journalism classes, it was with a "Oh why not?" kind of attitude. Subsequent episodes continue this revisionism.

Oh, shame.

Well of course you enjoyed MAUDE and RHODA more than me, so there's always a chance you'll find more to enjoy in PHYLLIS too.
 

Mel O'Drama

Admin
LV
16
 
Awards
44
Ted Baxter was the broadest and most potentially cartoonish of MTM's characters. so it's impressive that Knight managed to keep him believable and likeable.

Something that's struck me (but which I mention hesitantly with all the upcoming election brouhaha) is that Ted's mannerisms and facial expressions frequently remind me of Donald Trump. It seems I'm not the only person to have observed this.


Apparently the new apartment bothered someone even more than me, since she wrote a whole article on Psychology Today about it.

It's good to see the passion for the series and character from someone who identifies as a peer of Mary.




Keeping the same furniture may have helped warm up the new set. Plus, it's pretty implausible for someone to just buy all new furniture after they move.

To make it worse, in one of the handful of S6 scenes to occur at the old apartment, Mary told Sue Ann quite definitively that she had bought all the furniture herself

This was in response to a critical comment Sue Ann had made about said furniture, so if we were entering fanfic territory it could be mooted that Mary was so affected by the comments that she decided to replace all the furniture. That would be a huge stretch, though, since Sue Ann can offer barbs for everything Mary buys, wears, eats, dates or does.




Flo Meredith is the only character from MTM to appear on the drama LOU GRANT. I have no interest in watching that show, but one of these days I'll check out that particular episode. If nothing else, I'm curious to see if there's any reference to MTM.

Oh, that's interesting. I did enjoy the scenes between the two of them in that episode, and I've noticed that Flo will appear in another MTM before too long as well.

Regarding Lou Grant, I'm definitely up for watching the whole series, but I'm currently thinking I'll take a prolonged break after MTM/Rhoda/Phyllis to catch up on some other box-sets, and will come back to Lou's series in months or years to come.



The episode also starts some obvious revisionism of Mary's past, establishing that Mary had always wanted to be a journalist and was inspired by her aunt. Of course, there's no indication of this earlier in the series. Mary applied for a job as a secretary in the first episode, and there was no hint that she was specifically interested in TV journalism. When she later started taking journalism classes, it was with a "Oh why not?" kind of attitude. Subsequent episodes continue this revisionism.

While watching I didn't really think about this but now you've highlighted it I can see how much that changed the history of the character.



Well of course you enjoyed MAUDE and RHODA more than me, so there's always a chance you'll find more to enjoy in PHYLLIS too.

Here's hoping. Phyllis had her moments on MTM, but I wouldn't say she was a favourite of mine in the way Rhoda was. I'm certainly curious to see what this series is, and I'm sure it will help that expectations are low.
 

Crimson

Telly Talk Enthusiast
LV
2
 
Awards
9
This was in response to a critical comment Sue Ann had made about said furniture, so if we were entering fanfic territory it could be mooted that Mary was so affected by the comments that she decided to replace all the furniture. That would be a huge stretch, though, since Sue Ann can offer barbs for everything Mary buys, wears, eats, dates or does.

It's funny to think of Mary frantically redecorating -- and breaking her bank account in the process -- due to offhanded insults from Sue Ann.

The in-universe reasons aside, I think the producers were just trying to spruce things up. Brooks & Burns had wanted to end MTM after the 5th season, while they felt the show was still at its peak. They felt they had explored all there was with the characters. Moore, Grant Tinker and the network pushed back, arguing the show was still in its prime. A compromise was reached, agreeing MTM would run another 2 years. So, heading into S6, everyone knew the end was approaching.

Aside from the new setting, two new characters were introduced who the producers did plan to utilize regularly: Paula (Penny Marshall) and Joe (Ted Bessell). I'm not sure why Joe didn't stick around, but Penny hit it big with LAVERNE & SHIRLEY and thus wasn't available for guest appearances.
 

Soaplover

Telly Talk Fan
LV
0
 
Awards
3
It's funny to think of Mary frantically redecorating -- and breaking her bank account in the process -- due to offhanded insults from Sue Ann.

The in-universe reasons aside, I think the producers were just trying to spruce things up. Brooks & Burns had wanted to end MTM after the 5th season, while they felt the show was still at its peak. They felt they had explored all there was with the characters. Moore, Grant Tinker and the network pushed back, arguing the show was still in its prime. A compromise was reached, agreeing MTM would run another 2 years. So, heading into S6, everyone knew the end was approaching.

Aside from the new setting, two new characters were introduced who the producers did plan to utilize regularly: Paula (Penny Marshall) and Joe (Ted Bessell). I'm not sure why Joe didn't stick around, but Penny hit it big with LAVERNE & SHIRLEY and thus wasn't available for guest appearances.

I remember Penny Marshall and Mary Kay Place were introduced in season 6.. in an attempt to recreate the home life environment that MTM had with Rhoda and Phyllis in season 1 through 5. I think MKP only appeared once while PM appeared twice.

I think only focusing on the workplace in final two seasons kind of weakened the show because there wasn't that balance that was in the show in the early years.

Also, I think Mary Richards losing that wide eyed optimism made sense as she embraced the capitalistic lifestyle in Minneapolis as she became more established at the news station and moved into an 'adult' apartment. With Rhoda and Phyllis no longer in the picture, Mary lost that work/life balance that she had.. and that contributed to the change in her character and attitude.
 

Snarky Oracle!

Telly Talk Supreme
LV
8
 
Awards
21
Penny Marshall and Mary Kay Place were obviously positioned to become Mary's new irritating neighbors in her new high-rise apartment complex, but Penny was snatched up for LAVERNE & SHIRLEY and Place was snatched up for MARY HARTMAN, MARY HARTMAN (which both premiered in January 1976, mid-way thru the '75/76 season). So they quickly disappeared.

I never had a problem with Mary Richards' new digs in Season 6 and 7, nor her slightly more brittle demeanor -- it was a manifestation of Mary's "growing up", just as with her shorter hair in Season 3. Her new apartment seemed like a jumping-off spot for her impending life once the series ended.

"Chuckles Bites the Dust"s reputation was built off the fact that in 1975, using death as a basis for laughs in a TV sitcom was considered absolutely stunning -- such that the series' usual director, Jay Sandrich, refused to do it (so Joan Darling, once the frontrunner for Rhoda Morgenstern before CBS' Ethel Wynan located Valerie Harper, did the deed). The installment was ruined in syndication when the careful pacing was destroyed by additional edits... Today, even fully restored, the episode's shock value is long lost.

I tend to agree that five years is the ideal length for most series (certainly for most '70s cop shows) as the mojo is usually stolen by then. But I'm glad MTM ran seven. I thought the show was every bit as good in its last two seasons, even if there was a slight and inevitable tonal change. (And I was always glad that their "meanness" towards Ted was never really softened -- as he still kind of deserved it, frankly).

Despite the Donna Reed debacle, DALLAS would have been right to run through seven years (technically Season 8, per industry counting standards long before the DVDs started coming out in 2004) and then end when Bobby died. Although I would have hated to have missed Season 10 and its ghostly farewell (although it ran four more years and probably shouldn't have).

maxresdefault.jpg
 

Crimson

Telly Talk Enthusiast
LV
2
 
Awards
9
I remember Penny Marshall and Mary Kay Place were introduced in season 6.. in an attempt to recreate the home life environment that MTM had with Rhoda and Phyllis in season 1 through 5. I think MKP only appeared once while PM appeared twice.

You're probably right. I didn't think much of Sally Jo as a one-off character, but she was likely an attempt to create a new funny-annoying neighbor like Phyllis. Unfortunately, she was annoying-annoying and I'm glad she didn't return. On the other hand, I really liked Paula and she was the strongest candidate as the "new Rhoda" (even if she was probably closer to Brenda than early Rhoda). I'm glad Penny found success with L&S, but would have liked to see more of Paula first.

I just noticed MKP also wrote the episode "Mary's Delinquent", which I always skip. Apparently I disliked all of her contributions to MTM.
 
Last edited:

Mel O'Drama

Admin
LV
16
 
Awards
44
Brooks & Burns had wanted to end MTM after the 5th season, while they felt the show was still at its peak. They felt they had explored all there was with the characters. Moore, Grant Tinker and the network pushed back, arguing the show was still in its prime. A compromise was reached, agreeing MTM would run another 2 years.

It's good to get this context. Even though it may have run longer than JLB and Burns had wanted, I suppose limiting the extension to two years could help give it a focus as it moved towards the end.



Aside from the new setting, two new characters were introduced who the producers did plan to utilize regularly: Paula (Penny Marshall) and Joe (Ted Bessell).

I remember Penny Marshall and Mary Kay Place were introduced in season 6

Penny Marshall and Mary Kay Place were obviously positioned to become Mary's new irritating neighbors in her new high-rise apartment complex

The one arguable advantage of the tower block apartment over the more intimate setting of the original was the opportunity for neighbour-related material. As the move took place, I found myself wondering if it would open things up to the occasional guest-star playing some random neighbour, or further recurring characters. But this seems not to have been the case.

Of course this could have taken it even further away from the original premise, but it at least could offer some kind of home life for Mary that didn't involve her colleagues knocking the door at all hours.




"Chuckles Bites the Dust"s reputation was built off the fact that in 1975, using death as a basis for laughs in a TV sitcom was considered absolutely stunning -- such that the series' usual director, Jay Sandrich, refused to do it

That makes sense. I'm trying to think if this was also still the case in Britain in 1975, and I think it's probably to a lesser degree. I can think of a few examples of this kind of humour going back to the late Sixties in British sitcoms, but most of the key ones I thought of (Fawlty Towers' The Kipper And The Corpse episode; funeral parlour-based sitcom In Loving Memory) came after this point.
 

Seaviewer

Telly Talk Warrior
LV
9
 
Awards
20
The episode also starts some obvious revisionism of Mary's past, establishing that Mary had always wanted to be a journalist and was inspired by her aunt. Of course, there's no indication of this earlier in the series. Mary applied for a job as a secretary in the first episode, and there was no hint that she was specifically interested in TV journalism. When she later started taking journalism classes, it was with a "Oh why not?" kind of attitude. Subsequent episodes continue this revisionism.
I don't see that as a direct contradiction. The fact that she applied as a secretary and had no journalism training does not speak against her having had a childhood ambition that had been thwarted. She did choose a newsroom after all.
I thought Mary's character grew stronger in later years, not as unlikeable as you sggest (respectfully).
I think that as Mary grew older, it was a natural evolution for the character to be a bit more
wordly, for lack of a better word.
Apropos of nothing in particuar, probably my favourite MTM quote is Mary saying rather pompously, "I've been around" before amending it to "Well, I've been nearby." illustrating her ingenuousness.
 

Crimson

Telly Talk Enthusiast
LV
2
 
Awards
9
I don't see that as a direct contradiction. The fact that she applied as a secretary and had no journalism training does not speak against her having had a childhood ambition that had been thwarted. She did choose a newsroom after all.

She also went to college and didn't study journalism, which would be an odd choice for someone whose lifelong ambition was to be a journalist.

I used the term revisionism intentionally, rather than retcon. It's true there's no direct contradiction, because Mary had never previously said "Well I didn't want to be a journalist but here I am". But there's no indication in the earlier seasons that Mary had wanted a career in journalism prior to that first interview; the revisionism is shifting Mary to someone who sought out her career path than than kind of stumbling into it.

Mel hasn't gotten to the overt retcon episode yet, but there's direct contradiction still to come.
 

Snarky Oracle!

Telly Talk Supreme
LV
8
 
Awards
21
When, in an episode near the end of the series, Lou affectionately tells Mary that she'd once had the gall to come into the office seven years ago and ask for
the job of associate producer
, Mary should have pointed out that in fact she'd
only applied for a position of secretary and he'd given her the job of associate producer because it paid less
. Lou should have then responded "Details, details..." with a shrug as he walked back into his office.

Lou's nostalgia is always manipulative anyway.
 

Mel O'Drama

Admin
LV
16
 
Awards
44
Mary Tyler Moore
Season Six
One Boyfriend Too Many / What Do You Want To Do When You Produce? / Not With My Wife, I Don’t / The Seminar / Once I Had A Secret Love / Ménage-à-Lou / Murray Takes A Stand / Mary’s Aunt Returns / A Reliable Source / Sue Ann Falls In Love / Ted And The Kid



Here we are at the end of the penultimate season, with 85% of MTM episodes under my belt.

I’m relieved that even with the changes I’m finding the series as enjoyable as ever. A few lines and scenarios from episodes in this latter part of the run have given me some big laughs. Such as the exchange where someone, in reference to a newspaper article, asked Murray if he’d seen “the spread on Sue Ann” and he quipped that it didn’t show as much when she sat down. Or the scene at the awards where Sue Ann was introduced as “the Happy Homemaker” and it cut to a shot of her blubbering over her latest catch making a pass at Mary.

The familiar faces have been enjoyable. Penny Marshall had her finest (half) hour on the series when Paula was roped into being Lou’s companion for a double date with the recast Charlene. I assume this is the last we’ll see of Paula on the series, but she made it memorable. The return of Mary’s aunt was fun. And when the First Lady has a cameo, taking insults over the telephone from the series’ lead, you know you’ve made it after all.

There’s still a sense that some material is being recycled. It can sometimes feel as though Mary threatens to resign every third episode, and perhaps five or six of these episodes have involved someone resigning or being sacked, only for it to be corrected by episode’s end. On the plus side, the falling out between Lou and Mary over Mary’s indiscretion felt very truthful (I felt Lou forgave her far too easily, but I have a very low tolerance threshold when it comes to “well intentioned” gossip, so I’m not sure this was the intent of the writers).

Ted and Georgette adopting a child felt rather like a rehash of Murray going the same route in the last season. I was geared up to hate this one for it all happening in the space of an episode (the process is so fast tracked it’s like they’re using Amazon Prime rather than an adoption agency), but there was at least some attempt to make sense of this with the reasoning of there being a shorter wait for an older child, along with the explanation that another couple dropped out at the last minute. It’s not entirely without holes, but it was enough for me to willingly suspend disbelief.


Before returning to the Maryverse. I have fifteen to twenty episodes of Brookside to catch up on this week. When I resume, it will probably go:
Phylis S1 - Rhoda S3 - Phyllis S2 - Mary S7


There are two alternatives. One for if I’m really enjoying Phyllis:
Phyllis S1 - Phyllis S2 - Rhoda S3 - Mary S7


And one for if she does my box in:
Phyllis S1 (first few episodes only) / Rhoda S3 - Mary S7
 
Top