Mary Tyler Moore Show and Its Spin-Offs

[Crimson]

it simply feels very Phyllis to change things up every year anyway

As I was watching the half dozen or so episodes of PHYLLIS before moving on, I'd had a similar thought. One of the recurring themes of Phyllis-centric episodes of MTM was Phyllis taking on a new passion project (politics, real estate) only for it to fizzle. Settling her into a season long job so quickly seemed like a mistake, as there was so much possibility of Phyllis trying and spectacularly failing at new career types. That would have limited the recurring supporting cast, but an employment agency could have provided some consistency of characters.

Bess has felt like more of a presence in Season Two, and was certainly given the most character development of anyone, with trouble at college

It's always a tad jarring to me, as I rewatch MTM, how 'quickly' Bess grew up. Logically I know it's because there was a five year span (seven, including PHYLLIS) but when you watch the episodes in a two month crunch it feels like she grew up in the blink of an eye.

I’d love some insight into how the reworking came about and if it had any impact on cast dynamics. Wikipedia mentions the ratings continued to drop, and suggests Phyllis’s overhaul might have failed in part because Rhoda was also being reworked during the same season.

Even the MTM book I have cited here doesn't get too into the weeds on PHYLLIS. I think it's worth nothing that even MTM's ratings were dropping in the final two seasons. The book's premise is that the 'sophisticated' sitcoms of the early 70s had fallen out of favor in the later half of the decade, as lighter fare like HAPPY DAYS and THREE'S COMPANY grew in popularity.

Alternately, with more than 300 episodes between the three series, maybe audiences were just getting tired of the MTM-verse. LOU GRANT would go onto new success, but with a drastic change in tone.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Settling her into a season long job so quickly seemed like a mistake, as there was so much possibility of Phyllis trying and spectacularly failing at new career types. That would have limited the recurring supporting cast, but an employment agency could have provided some consistency of characters.

Both seasons of Phyllis began with pretty quickly getting her set up in a new career which then set the tone for the entire season. The second did it far more successfully in my opinion, but I still thought it surprising they committed to it so quickly the second time round when that same decision had worked against the series the previous year.

The employment agency would have given a great deal of scope and given the writers a chance to find a tone that really set the series apart while still feeling in character for Phyllis.

It's always a tad jarring to me, as I rewatch MTM, how 'quickly' Bess grew up.

Perhaps her infrequent/recurring appearances compound this as well.

The book's premise is that the 'sophisticated' sitcoms of the early 70s had fallen out of favor in the later half of the decade, as lighter fare like HAPPY DAYS and THREE'S COMPANY grew in popularity.

Alternately, with more than 300 episodes between the three series, maybe audiences were just getting tired of the MTM-verse.

These are reasonable explanations, and there's no reason why both can't be true.

You've mentioned that the writers were getting bored on at least one of the spinoffs, so if they feel that way when creating it, it's only going to add to the audience fatigue.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

One of the reasons MARY TYLER MOORE'S rating dropped in the last two seasons was that CBS moved ALL IN THE FAMILY, the anchor show on Saturday night, to Monday. Made worse by MTM's Season 7 competition from (and don't laugh) Season 2 of STARSKY & HUTCH.

 

[Crimson]

You've mentioned that the writers were getting bored on at least one of the spinoffs, so if they feel that way when creating it, it's only going to add to the audience fatigue.

Yes, some of the writers expressed disinterest in their own show after the enforced marriage on RHODA. I think it goes a bit deeper than even that. MTM was a labor of love. Everyone involved in the early days of that project were passionate and excited about doing something new; they defended their developing show against network intrusion. RHODA and PHYLLIS were rather cynical products created by network dictate to exploit popular characters. It's a wonder they turned out even as good as they did.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Made worse by MTM's Season 7 competition from (and don't laugh) Season 2 of STARSKY & HUTCH.

And it looks as though that series in turn suffered from the move which put it against MTM and The Bob Newhart Show, and did less well in the ratings than Season One. Looks like it finished at #34, with Rhoda at #33, MTM at #39 and Phyllis at #40.

RHODA and PHYLLIS were rather cynical products created by network dictate to exploit popular characters. It's a wonder they turned out even as good as they did.

Yes, it hasn't hurt to have a little discussion of the backstory to the creation of the spinoffs. It's certainly kept my expectations in check, and it turns out I've been pleasantly surprised.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

And it looks as though that series in turn suffered from the move which put it against MTM and The Bob Newhart Show, and did less well in the ratings than Season One. Looks like it finished at #34, with Rhoda at #33, MTM at #39 and Phyllis at #40.

Oh, yes, it very much did. Both shows suffered from the collision. S&H never matched the rating it had in Season 1 when it was on Wednesdays; then it was moved to make way for CHARLIE'S ANGELS.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

S&H never matched the rating it had in Season 1 when it was on Wednesdays; then it was moved to make way for CHARLIE'S ANGELS.

Ah - that's why it was moved. Spelling-Goldberg got their boost for the new series and still kept pulling them in with the Wednesday slot regardless.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

Ah - that's why it was moved. Spelling-Goldberg got their boost for the new series and still kept pulling them in with the Wednesday slot regardless.

I think for S&H Season 3, it was moved back to Wednesday (and then to Tuesday after TAXI for Season 4, where S&H died, but more because the leads didn't want to keep doing it -- how many masked, vengeful actors with steel claws could the boys be expected to conquer before the concept got tired?). But Spelling's shows tended to go to seed after their first two seasons.

By the fall of 1977, MARY was gone, BOB NEWHART was on life- support as Bob was AWOL during part of the year in his protest that the show shouldn't have a sixth season at all, calling in his lines like Chrissy Snow. And Carol Burnett announced her show would be ending by the conclusion of the '77/'78 year... And LOVE BOAT and FANTASY ISLAND over on ABC were now taking over Saturdays.

By the fall of 1978, DALLAS would join CBS' Saturday line-up (opposite ISLAND) to replace BURNETT, the Southfork crowd mercifully moved to Friday nights by early-1979 where it would remain for a dozen years.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

By the fall of 1977, MARY was gone, BOB NEWHART was on life- support as Bob was AWOL during part of the year in his protest that the show shouldn't have a sixth season at all, calling in his lines like Chrissy Snow. And Carol Burnett announced her show would be ending by the conclusion of the '77/'78 year... And LOVE BOAT and FANTASY ISLAND over on ABC were now taking over Saturdays.

By the fall of 1978, DALLAS would join CBS' Saturday line-up (opposite ISLAND)

Context is really helpful and I'm learning a lot about the American TV scene during the Seventies in this thread. It feels like quite a different world by the end of MTM than it was at the beginning.

 

[Crimson]

One of the lesser known talents of Mary Tyler Moore: pool shark.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1875414381577605335

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

Sharp.

The story must be true, because Mary looks surprised herself -- even briefly glancing at the camera.

But then Mary always had the oddest karma.

 

[Sarah Danner]

MTM was on for just the right amount of time. A seven-year hit that never wore out its welcome and didn't jump the shark.
Plus, the series had a definitive ending at a time when most shows going off the air would just fade away with a run of the mill episode.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

Did we post this before?

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Mary Tyler Moore
Season Seven
Mary Midwife / Mary The Writer / Sue Ann’s Sister / What’s Wrong With Swimming? / Ted’s Change Of Heart / One Producer Too Many / My Son, The Genius / Mary Gets A Lawyer / Lou Proposes


This might make sense only to me, but I’ve found there to be a degree of loudness to the episodes so far this season, and not necessarily in a bad kind of way.

With the end in sight, I thought there might be a slightly subdued air, but it feels like the opposite is true. Everyone seems to be having great fun with it and doesn’t seem ashamed to show it. This translates into a kind of confidence, that mostly works and only occasionally gets distracting. The latter has been caused by the actors seeming a little more aware of the studio audience than I’ve previously noticed, and sometimes playing lines to them. Georgia Engel seems to turn in their direction every time she gets a punchline, and even MTM herself has given a couple of knowing glances outwards. It could be read as a little needy or insecure, but with glass half full these moments have arguably enhanced my viewing since it reinforces that this was a live performance.

There’s no doubt that I’m watching a sitcom as it feels quite broad. While I feel it’s amped up a little is Season Seven, it could equally be because there’s been quite a gap since I last watched, and I’m returning to MTM directly off the back of some particularly gritty episodes of Liverpool soap Brookside.

Continuity is a little rocky, as always. Ted and Georgette don’t seem to be particularly tied down by their newborn daughter who is sometimes named Mary Lou and sometimes nameless (although, in fairness, the indecision around the name was commented upon by Murray), and a number of situations - like Murray’s job offer - have a sense of déjà vu.

Broad and simple as it is, though, there’s still a definite warmth and heart to the series.I would say that in place of the subdued air, there’s a willingness to be a little reflective and explore character in some depth, which gives the series a nice balance. Take the episode in which Ted had a near death experience and went overboard with his love and gratitude. By episode’s end, the entire ensemble was gazing at a sunset and counting their blessings, aware that they may feel differently tomorrow and it was surprisingly touching.

This willingness to explore character has seen traits we’ve come to associate with them challenged. From Mary being rude after reading Murray’s book, to Lou crying after Mary’s Aunt Flo(!) turned down his proposal of marriage. We’ve also seen perfect Mary lie to Mr Grant, as well as making bad decisions, such as employing the sportscaster who refused to speak about any contact sports and would only discuss swimming (said sportscaster, by the way, had a Farrah flick, and this was only broadcast around a month into Charlie’s Angels’ first season. Did this hairdo become hot immediately after the Pilot was broadcast some months earlier, or is it simply a popular style that Farrah happened to adopt and which ended up associated with her). Ted’s adopted son has been through a bratty phase (and the resulting corporal punishment hasn’t dated well), and even Georgette has had some mildly snarky lines.

It seems to me that Murray has borne the brunt of most critical appearance-based lines in the series in previous seasons (usually Sue Ann making fun of his hairline), but there seem to be no sacred cows this year, which has yielded some funny lines, with one of my favourites said by Lou to Mary:

I’ll lose some weight if you lose some teeth.

 

[Crimson]

This might make sense only to me, but I’ve found there to be a degree of loudness to the episodes so far this season

Season Seven is my least favorite of the series and there's a few episodes I often skip; specifically anything related to the Baxter's children. Since I tend to watch the show at a fairly rapid pace, the switch from the series' earlier vibe -- sweet, wistful, sometimes melancholy -- to the later vibe -- brassy and flinty -- is kind of jarring.

But that's a far cry from saying I dislike the season. Even at its relative worst, MTM was head and shoulders above 99% of American sitcoms and there's much greatness in the final season. It's good that they knew, heading in, that this was the final year. They were able to settle in, with some final explorations of characters and relationships including visits from earlier characters.

Continuity is a little rocky, as always.

Never the show's strong point, but that was hardly unusual in the era. Most shows back then tended to have slipshod continuity. I suspect the writers didn't give it much thought, never imagining that people would still be watching and discussing these shows fifty years later.

Not exactly continuity, but the age gap between Sue Ann and her sister always makes me arch my eyebrow a bit. With a visible 14 year gap between Betty White and Pat Priest*, their sibling rivalry seems odd.

*Possibly obscure to you, but well known to American audiences of the day as Marilyn Munster.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

the switch from the series' earlier vibe -- sweet, wistful, sometimes melancholy -- to the later vibe -- brassy and flinty -- is kind of jarring.

I suppose both capture their eras in a way. It's been mentioned that the broader kind of sitcom was becoming de rigueur, so at leat MTM can be credited with moving with the times.

I agree that it's lost a special something compared with the melancholy and autumnal/wintry early seasons.

Even at its relative worst, MTM was head and shoulders above 99% of American sitcoms and there's much greatness in the final season.

It's all been perfectly watchable for me so far. Granted, some more than others, but I haven't wanted to skip any (not on this first time round, anway).

including visits from earlier characters.

This I'm very much looking forward to. I know Rhoda and Phyllis will be along for the finale, and I've seen Gordy mentioned in an episode as well, so that will be very welcome.

Never the show's strong point, but that was hardly unusual in the era.

With the times and also the genre, I know these things can be a little "fluid". If anything I only notice them drop the ball because there have also been a couple of satisfying references to earlier episodes .

With a visible 14 year gap between Betty White and Pat Priest*, their sibling rivalry seems odd.

Now you mention it, that's very true. At least I had no trouble believing that she could make Sue Ann insecure, though.

*Possibly obscure to you, but well known to American audiences of the day as Marilyn Munster.

Not so obscure. The Munsters was repeated here a fair bit back in the Eighties. I watched on many a wet Saturday afternoon, so I'm familiar. While I didn't place Pat immediately, as soon as I saw her credit at the end I realised how I knew her.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Mary Tyler Moore
Season Seven
Murray Can’t Lose / Mary’s Insomnia / Ted’s Temptation / Look At Us, We’re Walking / The Critic / Lou’s Army Reunion / The Ted And Georgette Show / Sue Ann Gets The Axe / Hail The Conquering Gordy / Mary And The Sexegenarian / Murray Ghosts For Ted / Mary’s Three Husbands / Mary’s Big Party / Lou Dates Mary


Watchable as Season Seven has been, I do feel ready for the series to end. That could be partly influenced by knowing the series is about to do just that, but there is a sense of repetition that pervades, from the award show where someone is convinced they’re about to win to the one (or is it ones) where Mary threatens to quit yet again.

A couple of the episodes have felt very long as well. I think it was The Ted And Georgette Show where I mistook the mid-episode fadeout for the one that comes a few minutes before the end.

It’s interesting to see the use of a clip show as well, though I can forgive this one quite easily as leaning into the sense of fond reflection that has given this season in particular a very specific sense of history.

Murray’s constant snarkiness towards Ted has been somewhat addressed. In one of the Sue Ann episodes (I think the earlier one with her sister), Murray commented that he missed his banter with her because she’s an intellectual equal, whereas it’s too easy with Ted. It’s a comment that made him seem a little crueller, because he continues to undermine Ted certain that it’s not an equal battle. Then in one of the episodes (possibly the ghostwriter one), Murray told Ted that he respected him.

Gordy’s return was a nice touch. It’s good to see the character doing well and so effectively being given an upbeat ending after just fading from view before.

Helen Hunt is now Murray’s daughter, so that’s been a nice surprise. David Ogden Stiers has made a nice recurring guest as the station manager.

Given the progress within the series and in the real world during the run of the series, it felt a little surprising that Mary has been objectified by her colleagues in a couple of episodes. Mary’s Three Husbands was good fun, and it felt that all the cast were having a ball with acting out these scenarios. I can buy, too, that these three colleagues might have some vague fantasy about being married to Mary, but none of this stopped it feeling retrogressive.

And then this very idea was mocked in the Lou Dates Mary episode which sounded awful on paper, but in execution addressed how weird it would be to try and force a romantic relationship from a platonic one, and turned out quite a sweet episode. Incidentally, when Lou said about the one time he’d thought of Mary “that way”, I thought it was going to be a reference to the first episode where I seem to remember him coming to her home drunk and making a clumsy pass.

Lou wasn’t Mary’s only (or oldest) older man in this run. There’s also Murray’s dad. I’m not sure what this tells us about Mary (apart from possible daddy issues). Lou Ayres - certainly at this point - was pleasant enough but I didn’t feel the charisma which made for a most unconvincing match. I feel the casting relied on the audience knowing a little about him and his earlier projects in order to sell it.

I’ve enjoyed the ongoing references to Mary’s terrible parties, and Johnny Carson’s cameo is certainly one of the more intriguing. Is there any kind of story behind this (non)-appearance? I assume it was just an audio recording he’d made for this episode, but I’ll be even more impressed - and bewildered - if it turns out he was actually in the darkened studio with the cast.

And here we are in March 1977, with only The Last Show remaining. I don’t mind admitting I’m a little nervous about diving in. Since everything I’ve read about it has been overwhelmingly positive, there’s a lot riding on this.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

And then this very idea was mocked in the Lou Dates Mary episode which sounded awful on paper, but in execution addressed how weird it would be to try and force a romantic relationship from a platonic one, and turned out quite a sweet episode. Incidentally, when Lou said about the one time he’d thought of Mary “that way”, I thought it was going to be a reference to the first episode where I seem to remember him coming to her home drunk and making a clumsy pass.

What I find uncomfortable about the episode (rumors were rife that Lou and Mary were going to get married) is that during their climactic kiss, one senses that it's Mary who thinks there's no chemistry -- and Lou just goes along with the assessment.

But that's probably just the Mary's-the-girl/Lou's-a-guy sort of thing.

Johnny Carson’s cameo is certainly one of the more intriguing. Is there any kind of story behind this (non)-appearance?

Carson's contract with NBC apparently established that he couldn't "appear" on another network (MTM was CBS) so they pulled a fast one by having Johnny on in the audio. NBC could have potentially gotten mad about this trick, but Carson was so powerful at that time that, given that he'd technically remained within the terms of his contract, there was nothing NBC could -- or would -- do.

Later, Carson would host The Oscars for several years, despite it being on ABC.

And here we are in March 1977, with only The Last Show remaining. I don’t mind admitting I’m a little nervous about diving in. Since everything I’ve read about it has been overwhelmingly positive, there’s a lot riding on this.

It was the only time MARY TYLER MOORE hit #1 for the week. Like Valene getting her babies back.

I, for one, have no problems with Seasons 6 or 7 at all. Like Mary's new apartment, the slightly-edgier tone is just reflective of Mary Richards "growing up" -- the apartment and her mild bitchiness (comparatively) just a jumping-off point for Mary and the future that awaits her that we'll never see.

But we do -- Mary then plays a series of overt bitches on the big screen and small (e.g., ORDINARY PEOPLE, STOLEN BABIES, and several more).


Mary disapproving of something you did or didn't do:

 

[Crimson]

Watchable as Season Seven has been, I do feel ready for the series to end. T

Yes as I've pondered here before, scripted shows rarely have an agreeable life beyond five to seven seasons. After that, it's either stale repetition or changes that make the show unrecognizable. MTM ended on relatively good terms -- the quality and humor were still mostly solid -- but the writers were clearly out of ideas.

I think this is also where it becomes obvious just how hard the loss of Rhoda and Phyllis hit the show. The series was too boxed in on Mary's worklife. If the show had successfully introduced a lasting boyfriend or one of the would-be Rhoda replacements, there could have been more storylines to play with.

Then in one of the episodes (possibly the ghostwriter one), Murray told Ted that he respected him.

I like that the writers used a final episode to have a pleasant and long overdue reconciliation between Murray and Ted. Although there were only a few episodes left anyway, I think the writers even stuck to it -- I don't recall there being as many zingers from Murray to Ted after this. The scene is also great evidence of what a fine actor Ted Knight was, and how he brought such shading to what could have been a one-dimensional buffoon role. I love how intently Ted stares at Murray's mouth, waiting for the compliment to turn into an insult; and how relieved he was at the sincerity.

And then this very idea was mocked in the Lou Dates Mary episode which sounded awful on paper

And with that, we can wrap up one of the great recurring (non) themes of MTM: (the lack of) Mary's love life. It's surprising in retrospect that Mary's dating life was never more prominent and this was not an intentional choice to make a statement about working women. The producers wanted Mary to have a recurring beau, but each time a new one was introduced they were disappointed by the results. There was only one candidate the producers thought was "worthy" of Mary: Lou Grant. Burns and Brooks were keen on introducing a romance between the two as far back as S4; possibly why they split Lou from Edie. They saw it was a Tracy-Hepburn match. There was just one problem. Mary Tyler Moore who, though was the star and co-owner of the show, rarely contradicted her producers and writers, on this she was unmovable: she would not allow a romance between Lou and Mary Richards. Only at the end did she relent, and then only to prove out why it would have been a bad idea.

Johnny Carson’s cameo is certainly one of the more intriguing. Is there any kind of story behind this (non)-appearance? I

One of the show's writer's used to work for Carson, and the episode was written as an intentional inversion of the usual celebrity guest appearance -- never actually seeing said guest star. (I must admit every time I watch this episode, I think it's a Johnny Carson impersonator rather than Carson himself.)

Sue Ann Gets The Axe

Although I like the episode itself, this contains my single biggest pet peeve of the entire series. Lou's admission to Mary that he originally hired her out of pity not only contradicts the first episode but undermines it. Lou hired Mary due to her "spunk" (even if he hated it). The show always had some sloppy continuity and gentle revisionisms, but this is a total misunderstanding of early Mary Richards. She was never a pitiable waif in need of saving. In the first episode alone she stood up to Lou, Rhoda and her ex-fiancé -- all with a gentle decency rather than a flinty assertiveness. This seems like the writers making concessions to the feminists of the day, who endlessly groused that Mary was too soft, but it's a shame the show endorsed that silly viewpoint.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

(rumors were rife that Lou and Mary were going to get married)

Oh my.

There was only one candidate the producers thought was "worthy" of Mary: Lou Grant. Burns and Brooks were keen on introducing a romance between the two as far back as S4; possibly why they split Lou from Edie.

This is truly fascinating, and would have made for a very different latter half of the series.

Carson's contract with NBC apparently established that he couldn't "appear" on another network (MTM was CBS) so they pulled a fast one by having Johnny on in the audio.

What a clever and cheeky workaround. I love that even this has a story behind it.

(I must admit every time I watch this episode, I think it's a Johnny Carson impersonator rather than Carson himself.)

I wasn't sure myself until the credits rolled at the end.

Not that I'm overly familiar with Johnny Carson anyway. Certainly not familiar enough to tell an impersonator from the real thing.

It was the only time MARY TYLER MOORE hit #1 for the week. Like Valene getting her babies back.

Gosh. Based on its reputation and popularity I'd been going on the assumption it was regularly #1. But I suppose it was a fairly competitive time in the TV industry.

MTM ended on relatively good terms -- the quality and humor were still mostly solid -- but the writers were clearly out of ideas.

I found myself able to forgive a lot with the final season. Mostly because any repetition felt a little like the series spinning its greatest hits one more time.

Although there were only a few episodes left anyway, I think the writers even stuck to it -- I don't recall there being as many zingers from Murray to Ted after this.

This is impressive. I hadn't noticed, but I think you might be right.

Lou's admission to Mary that he originally hired her out of pity not only contradicts the first episode but undermines it. Lou hired Mary due to her "spunk" (even if he hated it). The show always had some sloppy continuity and gentle revisionisms, but this is a total misunderstanding of early Mary Richards. She was never a pitiable waif in need of saving.

Oh yes. I forgot to mention this one after watching, but I raised my eyebrows at this particular scene.