Mary Tyler Moore Show and Its Spin-Offs

[Crimson]

I don't know much about Asner as a person and haven't seen many interviews - if any - but the characters he plays often seem to have that undercurrent of chauvinism so it feels quite surprising on that level.

Despite his progressive activism, I don't know if Asner was a particularly nice guy; or at least I've come across some pretty unpleasant anecdotes about him. Around the time LOU GRANT was cancelled, Ted Knight was promoting his new sitcom. When asked about LOU GRANT's cancellation, Knight apparently didn't defend the situation to Asner's satisfaction. Ed held a grudge for the rest of Knight's life and refused to speak to him. Even when Asner visited Knight's death bed, it was to "forgive" Ted. Said Asner, "The sin was his" which is about the pettiest thing I've heard especially since Asner couldn't even recall what Ted said or didn't say that offended him in the first place.

 

[Daniel Avery]

I saw some reruns of late-1970s Match Game a few months ago, with Ed Asner appearing as one of the celebrity panelists. If you're familiar with the show, the "game" was sort of an excuse for the celebrities to enjoy themselves, with many episodes having a party atmosphere. Asner sat in the first seat and was practically humorless, often giving the worst answers and occasionally antagonizing the show's host or other stars on the panel. It was like someone threw a party and felt obligated to invite that grumpy old neighbor who doesn't socialize. He wasn't "in character" as Lou Grant or anything---he was just not in the mood to enjoy himself.

 

[Jimmy Todd]

I recently watched a few episodes of MTM, and I've forgotten how good the show is. This has probably been mentioned on this thread, but the pacing is so different from most sitcoms I have seen. It takes its time and lets us get to know the characters in a way other shows don't. One episode stood out for me. Mary and Rhoda take a night class on journalism, and Mary starts dating the professor. She's a tad miffed because she only gets a C+ on a paper. She dors mention it to the professor, but there's no big showdown or catharsis. The ethics of her dating her professor isn't addressed by anyone(this is the 1970s). The episode feels more like a "slice of life" of Mary, and I thoroughly enjoyed it.
Another episode involved Rhoda's mother coming to visit. I mention this because I love Ida Morgenstern.

 

[tommie]

I've never seen LOU GRANT so I don't know if the final episode offers any conclusion, but the show was abruptly cancelled; so I suspect not.

It sort of ends on a nice note I'd say. Not one like MTMS, but there's no giant cliffhangers or anything.

Since LOU GRANT was still a very solid hit at the time of cancellation, Asner was probably correct.

This isn't exactly true - it was always a bit of a mid-performer - something that hovered around in the lower top 30/40 in the Nielsen rankings. In the final season it fell from #27 to #38 and CBS was of course at the time having major success with Dallas, so I think Lou Grant was just expendable at that point. While it makes for a better story that CBS cancelled it because Ed Asner was politically outspoken, that's not how networks work. Hell, even with the infamous Roseanne debacle, they just retooled the show. If Asner was the issue... he'd be out and the show would've gone out without the lead.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Despite his progressive activism, I don't know if Asner was a particularly nice guy; or at least I've come across some pretty unpleasant anecdotes about him.

It was like someone threw a party and felt obligated to invite that grumpy old neighbor who doesn't socialize.

While this is disappointing, somehow it softens the blow that he is known mostly for playing grumpy types.

The game show thing is interesting, because I assume most people who appear are contractually obligated to do so by the network on which they usually appear, but almost all contestants manage either to genuinely enjoy themselves or to overcome their reservations enough to appear to have fun.

While it makes for a better story that CBS cancelled it because Ed Asner was politically outspoken, that's not how networks work. Hell, even with the infamous Roseanne debacle, they just retooled the show. If Asner was the issue... he'd be out and the show would've gone out without the lead.

I was trying to think of an example from around Lou Grant's time and the one that sprang immediately to mind was... Valerie.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

This isn't exactly true - it was always a bit of a mid-performer - something that hovered around in the lower top 30/40 in the Nielsen rankings. In the final season it fell from #27 to #38 and CBS was of course at the time having major success with Dallas, so I think Lou Grant was just expendable at that point. While it makes for a better story that CBS cancelled it because Ed Asner was politically outspoken, that's not how networks work. Hell, even with the infamous Roseanne debacle, they just retooled the show. If Asner was the issue... he'd be out and the show would've gone out without the lead.

Maybe. But one has to remember the political zeitgeist in America in the early-to-mid-'80s. Reagan was seen as a god -- even amongst many Democrats. And speaking out against him, although not exactly dangerous physically, was considered shocking, inexplicable and blasphemous.

Even the liberalism that remained (and "liberal" became a dirty word) was muted and deferential.

So, yeah, Asner's outspoken left-leaning tendencies, openly criticizing The Gipper's policies, probably rang the death knell to a series always in the middle of the ratings anyway.

 

[Jimmy Todd]

Regarding political views, I recall reading an interview with Mary Tyler Moore in which she said she was not entirely comfortable with being, as she saw it, having the moniker of "feminist icon" being foisted in her by Gloria Steinem, and that she saw herself as more of a libertarian than liberal.

 

[tommie]

So, yeah, Asner's outspoken left-leaning tendencies, openly criticizing The Gipper's policies, probably rang the death knell to a series always in the middle of the ratings anyway.

Perhaps Ed Asner's political opinions tipped the hand against it, but my point is that it wasn't a huge hit or a shock that it got cancelled. Ironically, looking at their slate I suspect they were choosing between it and Knots Landing. But that season seems like a bit of a mess with the House Calls / Cagney & Lacey switch. It's obvious Dallas and then Falcon Crest both taking off changed a lot of things for how CBS approached the early 80s.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

Regarding political views, I recall reading an interview with Mary Tyler Moore in which she said she was not entirely comfortable with being, as she saw it, having the moniker of "feminist icon" being foisted in her by Gloria Steinem, and that she saw herself as more of a libertarian than liberal.

Mary Tyler Moore did a campaign ad for Jimmy Carter's re-election in 1980. She apparently slid to the right -- although not as extremely as Jon Voight did -- as she got into her elderly years.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Ted Knight was the only conservative in the cast (although the meaning of those terms tend to change over time). It created some tension between Asner and Knight.

I saw my first hint of this in the 8 Characters in Search of a Sitcom bonus feature from the Season Two DVD set. Someone (either Betty, Cloris or perhaps Valerie) made a passing comment about Ted and Ed occasionally going at it, though no context was given.

At an hour long, it was a decent extra actually, and up there with The Making Of The Mary Tyler Moore Show from the Season One DVDs.

I also thoroughly enjoyed Mary On Sunday, which was a contemporaneous report on the making of the Season Three title sequence. I've watched the extensive B-roll footage of this shoot on YouTube, but preferred watching with the added narration and context in the report. It's so much fun to see how the crowd was utilised.

Something I found eye-opening was that the studio as a rule didn't pay to film shots of people's property, but were in negotiations to pay the woman who owned the MTM house as she was understandably peeved that the house was attracting unwanted attention from stalker-ish fans and people wanting photographs and souvenirs. As she was interviewed talking about her complaints, we were given shots of the house covered in ugly banners and "Impeach Nixon" signs, hung up deliberately to ensure the house wasn't re-filmed for the new titles. I assume negotiations fell through at this point.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

Something I found eye-opening was that the studio as a rule didn't pay to film shots of people's property, but were in negotiations to pay the woman who owned the MTM house as she was understandably peeved that the house was attracting unwanted attention from stalker-ish fans and people wanting photographs and souvenirs. As she was interviewed talking about her complaints, we were given shots of the house covered in ugly banners and "Impeach Nixon" signs, hung up deliberately to ensure the house wasn't re-filmed for the new titles. I assume negotiations fell through at this point

And you can imagine what the Duncans went through, ultimately selling Southfork in 1984!

 

[Mel O'Drama]

And you can imagine what the Duncans went through, ultimately selling Southfork in 1984!

Oh God yes.

Allowing one's property to be used this was is a bit of a gamble, I suppose. Most of the time it comes to nothing, but occasionally it will get indelibly attached to a hit.

Since it was filmed so extensively, I'd hope the Duncans were at least paid something to soften the blow, but I doubt it would be enough to make it an attractive prospect for that level of visibility.

Having my privacy invaded daily by strangers comes close to my idea of hell. My closest frame of reference for this is a couple of decades ago when a relative contacted me to say they'd spotted my old bedroom - an unusually-shaped room, which I'd painted a very distinctive colour - in an episode of a popular, long-running drama series here. This was perhaps a year after I'd moved out, but apparently after I'd left someone had accepted some money from the BBC for its use. I never did see the episode, but even knowing it was out there was enough to give me an uncomfortable feeling.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

More MTM bonus material this Sunday afternoon.

The Emmy clips were more of the same, while being a nice little continuation-stroke-evolution of the earlier ones. Once again, it was Ed Asner and Valerie Harper's acceptances. Ed was as eloquent as before, while Valerie was far more eloquent this time round, her previous year's speech having an awful lot of huge pauses and half sentences.

The Newbeat Segment feature was a really nice premise, unfortunately, it's let down by the fact tha it's more tedious than funny (the latter of which seemed to be the intention). It seems to be taken from a broader sketch show of some kind, but the overall vibe was of a transatlantic Philomena Cunk, but without the skilful writing and delivery and ultimately very, very unfunny. All the same, it was great to visit some of the best known MTM locations in Minneapolis, and I admit to enjoying the recreation of the MTM opening titles.

DVD trivia games are something I would usually actively avoid, but curiosity got the better of me and it while I was expecting it to be pure text, it turned out the questions in this All Star Trivia Challenge were posed by those involved in the show, including Ed Asner; Valerie Harper; Cloris Leachman; Gavin Macleod; Betty White and Georgia Engel. We had a go at this one, and got 9/10 which I'm pretty pleased with. The questions weren't the most taxing, but did require some knowledge of the series. If I was counting correctly, I think I fell down on one about who Chuckles The Clown's daughter was infatuated with (guessing Lou, rather than Ted). I suppose that was a less-memorable episode for me.

Since I'm skipping over the clippings from MAD Magazine and the Love Is All Around karaoke features, all that remains to watch are the audio commentaries which I may crack on with tonight.

It's a shame there aren't really any bonus features beyond the first two seasons' worth of DVDs. The Last Show alone deserved its own feature.

 

[tommie]

Something I found eye-opening was that the studio as a rule didn't pay to film shots of people's property, but were in negotiations to pay the woman who owned the MTM house as she was understandably peeved that the house was attracting unwanted attention from stalker-ish fans and people wanting photographs and souvenirs. As she was interviewed talking about her complaints, we were given shots of the house covered in ugly banners and "Impeach Nixon" signs, hung up deliberately to ensure the house wasn't re-filmed for the new titles. I assume negotiations fell through at this point.

Oh interesting! I wonder if that had something to do with them moving Mary to a new apartment?

 

[Mel O'Drama]

The Season One audio commentaries are proving worth a dip. Nothing earth-shattering, and much of it has been covered in the other features (Ed's poor audition; the "Black Tuesday" run; the studio's resistance to certain stories and actors, et cetera). Perhaps the most interesting nugget of new information was the story of the MTM logo's kitten: after struggling with half a dozen little moggies, the shot was eventually procured by reversing a shot of a cat licking milk off its paws so that its head moved up rather than down. And a couple of frames were removed so that the cats tongue wasn't seen to give the requisite "roaring" appearance, onto which was addd a little meow found in the library.

As someone used to British sitcoms, I'm frequently amused by how squeamish American audiences were perceived by the networks when it came to unlikeable characters (perhaps still the case based on the discussion of sitcom characters in this insightful comparison between British and American humour). Rhoda is a case in point. In the commentary for Love Is All Around, I again heard the story of how poorly the character was received in the first run-through with an audience, and how the writers cleverly got around this not by changing Rhoda's words or behaviour, but simply by adding a line of dialogue ahead of Rhoda's introduction to make it very clear that Bess was fond of Rhoda.

There's a similar story in Support Your Local Mother where the network flat out said the episode could not be made (overruled after a phone call to Grant Tinker who had read the episode and thought it funny). I thought the reason might be purely down to the Morgansterns' faith (which apparently was an issue with Rhoda, inferred by an early criticism that she was "too New York"), but the main fear turned out to be that audiences would never be able to like a character who refused a visit from her own mother.

In hindsight, it all seems so silly, but it reinforces how - thanks to the faith and insistence of the creators - the series quietly changed minds.


Incidentally, a recurring theme has been how strong the Lou/Mary scenes were. Of course, I knew this, but hadn't consciously registered that the relationship is in many ways the heart of the series.

I wonder if that had something to do with them moving Mary to a new apartment?

It could have been a factor, although it was a couple more seasons down the line. Certainly, featuring a fairly anonymous apartment block is going to cause less upheaval for the residents than a family home.

 

[Crimson]

As someone used to British sitcoms, I'm frequently amused by how squeamish American audiences were perceived by the networks when it came to unlikeable characters (perhaps still the case based on the discussion of sitcom characters in this insightful comparison between British and American humour).

Cultural differences in humor aside, practical considerations can't be overlooked; specifically the duration of a season. It's all well and good to watch 6 episodes of an unpleasant character-- but 24 weeks of that is a bit much.

Certainly, featuring a fairly anonymous apartment block is going to cause less upheaval for the residents than a family home.

Were there even establishing shots of the new building? I can't recall what the building even looked like from the outside.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Cultural differences in humor aside, practical considerations can't be overlooked; specifically the duration of a season. It's all well and good to watch 6 episodes of an unpleasant character-- but 24 weeks of that is a bit much.

Fair point, though I think that would be more true of a lead character. An unpleasant character within a larger ensemble could possibly help keep things interesting (as the nighttime soaps a few years down the road from MTM would prove).

Were there even establishing shots of the new building? I can't recall what the building even looked like from the outside.

It was seen, but I think it was mostly in some of the first episodes after Mary's move. It's evidently Riverside Plaza in Minneapolis:


From this site which looks at MTM locations:

In 1975, Mary Tyler Moore left her exclusive Kenwood pad for a new upscale high-rise apartment in the Riverside Towers. The key features of these towers were the bright multicolor panels on the building that was supposed to cheer up and inspire people.
The reality is that much of the 14 tower urban village never materialized. Today, the buildings are rundown, shabby, and infested with gangs. It is a modern urban ghetto that the locals call the 'crack stack'.

Here's a photo of the block:

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Asner had become politically outspoken for liberal causes during his years on MTM; an interesting development since he had started out, in the parlance of the day, as a male chauvinist.

I watched the audio commentary for The Six-And-A-Half Year Itch last night, and in it, Ed admits to having been a male chauvinist back in the day and credits this episode with having changed his view on women writers, particularly due to the lengthy office scene between Lou and his son-in-law where they discuss each of their almost-infidelities. Treva Silverman, slightly put out, reminds him that this was something like the fifth episode she'd written for the series.


Some other titbits (or tidbits if I'm going transatlantic) gleaned were that Mary had a ballet instructor coming in on a weekly basis. They would take a 2 hour lunch break and while the women danced, the men would be eating. Asner can tell they're in Season Two by his waistline. Seems he gained a lot of weight over the course of the first season or so, but would get back in shape a little soon afterwards. It was apparently a similar story for Gavin Mcleod.


Scenes involving Mary, Phyllis and Rhoda also meant an extended break for the guys, mainly due to Cloris Leachman fussing over dialogue, trying ad libs and attempting to rewrite scenes... particulary for episodes where Phyllis's role is less central. When asked if he ever came to watch others' scenes being filmed (in the days before monitors were standard), he commented he was probably in his dressing room smoking grass.

There was a lot of praise all round for Lisa Gerritsen, with The Birds...And...Um...Bees' raison d'être being to give her more to do.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

One thing mentioned in a couple of the audio commentaries is that on the actual set, Lou's office set at WJM isn't where it appears to be. One of the commentaries mentioned the office being on the right as the studio audience viewed it, and in his commentary, Gavin Macleod confirmed this by saying the actors had to remember which foot they'd used to step inside so they could replicate this when the scene continued in Lou's office.

I have to say, I applaud how consistently well this has been done, because not only did I not spot it, my head still keeps telling me the actors, directors and writers must be misremembering. Over the course of the series they've convinced me a little too well that it's all exactly as it appears on screen.

Another little titbit was that Joyce Bulifant had done a pilot with Michele Lee which he'd hoped would be Joyce's big chance to get a series. Looking into it, this appears to be The Michele Lee Show from 1974. Curiously, despite her being intended to be a regular had it gone to series, IMDb says that Joyce was cut out of the pilot altogether as it ran too long.

 

[Crimson]

One thing mentioned in a couple of the audio commentaries is that on the actual set, Lou's office set at WJM isn't where it appears to be. One of the commentaries mentioned the office being on the right as the studio audience viewed it, and in his commentary, Gavin Macleod confirmed this by saying the actors had to remember which foot they'd used to step inside so they could replicate this when the scene continued in Lou's office.

It hadn't occurred to me before, but it makes sense. MTM was filmed in front of an audience, so the soundstage would have had limited variability. Safe to say the apartment and newsroom sets were fixed, and there must have been a third space for whatever additional set was needed for an episode (Rhoda or Phyllis' apartments, Lous' office, etc).

Now I found myself wondering if there were ever episodes were we saw more than three locations, because the logistics of an additional set, while filming in front of an audience, would have been difficult. I recall an early episode where Mary's apartment was clumsily redecorated as an additional set, so maybe that one.