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Ray in season 10.

kenneth

Telly Talk Fan
Can we agree that after Pam wakes up, Ray turns into a total dick? He places the entire blame for the breakdown of their marriage and eventual divorce on Donna, showing no recognition for her contributions or the support she has given him.

His hostility extends to Bobby as well, acting as if Bobby “dumped” Jenna and discarded her, when in fact she ended the relationship. Had she not made that choice, Bobby likely would have stayed with her. And then there’s Jenna’s pregnancy — Bobby didn’t even know she was expecting, though Ray acts as if he knew and told Jenna to go eat yellow snow. If he had known, coupled with her not ending things, he certainly would have married her.

In short, Ray’s attitude makes even Cliff’s sexist behavior seem mild by comparison.
 
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James from London

International Treasure
It's not as black and white as that. It really all goes back to Ray's whole life and upbringing and his resultant insecurities and stuff. Of course, you can dismiss all that if you just wanna make a quick judgement and move on, and that of course is your prerogative.
 

Spooky Owl!

Telly Talk Supreme
Ray, like many on the show, needed a weekly hour with the indefatigable Dr. Ellby!

And his strategic refusal to pour you a glass of water in order to increase your self-esteem.
 

Jock-O-Lantern

Telly Talk Dream Maker
His hostility extends to Bobby as well, acting as if Bobby “dumped” Jenna and discarded her, when in fact she ended the relationship. Had she not made that choice, Bobby likely would have stayed with her.

I've called Ray out on his insecurities and self-pity numerous times and I agreed with everything you said, accept this. The only reason Jenna broke off the engagement was because she knew Bobby was still in love with Pam. She saw it in his eyes at Mitch and Lucy's wedding. And after the dream season, it was Bobby who broke up with Jenna.
 

kenneth

Telly Talk Fan
It's not as black and white as that. It really all goes back to Ray's whole life and upbringing and his resultant insecurities and stuff. Of course, you can dismiss all that if you just wanna make a quick judgement and move on, and that of course is your prerogative.
That's why I make a post like this, to get other perspectives on Ray from people who might have better insight than I do. To me, after 10 years of this it sounds more and more like excuses. Its like Ray never learns.

I've called Ray out on his insecurities and self-pity numerous times and I agreed with everything you said, accept this. The only reason Jenna broke off the engagement was because she knew Bobby was still in love with Pam. She saw it in his eyes at Mitch and Lucy's wedding. And after the dream season, it was Bobby who broke up with Jenna.
I guess I should go back and double check what Jenna actually said.
 
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James from London

International Treasure
To me, after 10 years of this it sounds more and more like excuses. Its like Ray never learns.

I don't know if I really want characters to learn, especially in a drama about people as dysfunctional as the Ewings. There's something more poetic/tragic/saga-ish if their fates are somehow predetermined. Ray and Donna loved each other, but maybe they were doomed from the outset. Like Donna says in Season 3, "Looks like the poets were wrong. Love doesn't conquer all."
 
I don't know if I really want characters to learn, especially in a drama about people as dysfunctional as the Ewings. There's something more poetic/tragic/saga-ish if their fates are somehow predetermined. Ray and Donna loved each other, but maybe they were doomed from the outset. Like Donna says in Season 3, "Looks like the poets were wrong. Love doesn't conquer all."
sure, but sometimes as a viewer the “same old thing” out of a character gets old. Would we have wanted to hear Mitch continue to complain chauvinistically about the Ewing money for 10 seasons?

With Ray and Donna it’s frustrating because we saw him mature and grow over the course of a season (which we were not told was “fake” at the time), and they have him “insta-regress” when Pam wakes up. The insecurity could have always been there, with its “lady and the cowboy” tension, but a bit of self-awareness and growth wouldn’t have completely ruined the character, I think.
 

James from London

International Treasure
sure, but sometimes as a viewer the “same old thing” out of a character gets old.

I remember watching an episode from this season where Pam gets angry at Cliff for making her choose between the Barnes and the Ewings, and my housemate at the time, who was only a casual Dallas viewer, said something like, "Is she still complaining about that?" But that's exactly what I loved about Dallas -- the recurring themes, the inescapable conflicts which I felt were the heart of the show. I guess the trick is to revisit the "same old things", but in different ways, and I think Dallas was largely successful at that (especially during this season).

With Ray and Donna it’s frustrating because we saw him mature and grow over the course of a season (which we were not told was “fake” at the time), and they have him “insta-regress” when Pam wakes up.

Well, pretty much everyone "matured and grew" during the course of the Dream Season, so much so that they were hardly recognisable as the same characters. During their Down's Syndrome/deaf kid storyline, Steve Kanaly and Susan Howard could have been playing any generic TV couple in any treacly Movie of the Week. It's hard for characters to grow and mature in Soap Land without the idiosyncrasies that made them interesting in the first place being completely ironed out. Take away those fatal character flaws and everyone becomes a bit bland and boring and interchangeable. Knots Landing is the exception here: somehow, Gary Ewing kept evolving and developing while still being really interesting to watch. He never lost his edge, I guess.

The insecurity could have always been there, with its “lady and the cowboy” tension, but a bit of self-awareness and growth wouldn’t have completely ruined the character, I think.

I think Ray did keep trying -- mostly to emulate Jock, be it in business or as a father figure -- but his tragedy is he wanted it all too much and at the same time didn't feel he was worthy, and that's why he'd screw up (or react so badly when things screwed up around him, as they have a tendency to do in soap opera). To me, that's more a poignantly effective character arc than "man conveniently overcomes insecurities and gets a sentimental adoption storyline that any stock character in any stock drama could have".
 
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James from London

International Treasure
Would we have wanted to hear Mitch continue to complain chauvinistically about the Ewing money for 10 seasons?

If Mitch's underlying issues were established as effectively and poignantly as Ray's then maybe.
 
I remember watching an episode from this season where Pam gets angry at Cliff for making her choose between the Barnes and the Ewings, and my housemate at the time, who was only a casual Dallas viewer, said something like, "Is she still complaining about that?" But that's exactly what I loved about Dallas -- the recurring themes, the inescapable conflicts which I felt were the heart of the show. I guess the trick is to revisit the "same old things", but in different ways, and I think Dallas was largely successful at that (especially during this season).



Well, pretty much everyone "matured and grew" during the course of the Dream Season, so much so that they were hardly recognisable as the same characters. During their Down's Syndrome/deaf kid storyline, Steve Kanaly and Susan Howard could have been playing any generic TV couple in any treacly Movie of the Week. It's hard for characters to grow and mature in Soap Land without the idiosyncrasies that made them interesting in the first place being completely ironed out. Take away those fatal character flaws and everyone becomes a bit bland and boring and interchangeable. Knots Landing is the exception here: somehow, Gary Ewing kept evolving and developing while still being really interesting to watch. He never lost his edge, I guess.



I think Ray did keep trying -- mostly to emulate Jock, be it in business or as a father figure -- but his tragedy is he wanted it all too much and at the same time didn't feel he was worthy, and that's why he'd screw up (or react so badly when things screwed up around him, as they have a tendency to do in soap opera). To me, that's more poignantly effective character arc than "man conveniently overcomes insecurities and gets a sentimental adoption storyline that any stock character could have".
oh sure, the dream season ended being over the top Lifetime Movie sentimentality after a while (I actually preferred Angelica and her weirdo “European henchpeople” and “shirtless fake Guzzler and his fake but actually not fake emerald mine” to “everyone sitting together at cocktail hour discussing their feelings”), but it’s like they went out of their way to make everyone as much of a selfish jerk as possible when Katzman came back. Maybe I’m overly sentimental, but I was actually enjoying seeing Cliff Barnes act like a human being for once, and they made him ”extra obnoxious” right off the bat post-dream.

Throw in the return of “Jazzy John” Parker and the garish colors and editing-on-video and it’s pretty jarring if you do a sequential rewatch. Entertaining, of course, but I really don’t think it’s a true return to the Jock’s Will heights or anything like that. (other than Wes Parmalee!)

If Mitch's underlying issues were established as effectively and poignantly as Ray's then maybe.
ah, that made me think… I think a big reason Cliff Barnes remained compelling over the years was that, especially for viewers who saw him in the early years, there was the kernel of a decent guy under the self-centered obsession - see how he handled his staffers in ELECTION, for instance.

There was just enough of that under there that you could cheer for the underdog a bit: “c’mon Cliff, don’t sabotage yourself this time!”.. even if he did end up selfishly self-sabotaging every time.

Immediately post-dream he was so irredeemably obnoxious that it was harder to care about him at all.

(although now I want to throw that season on again for the first time in years to see how accurate my recollection is! I think last time I watched it, it was immediately after I’d finished the Dream Season, and I was surprised at how off-putting I found the abrupt course correction to be.)
 
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James from London

International Treasure
I actually preferred Angelica and her weirdo “European henchpeople” and “shirtless fake Guzzler and his fake but actually not fake emerald mine” to “everyone sitting together at cocktail hour discussing their feelings”

Yes, for entirely opposite reasons, Angelica, because she was such a radically different character for Dallas, and Pam and Mark, because they were still recognisably who they had always been, were my favourite things about the Dream Season.

it’s like they went out of their way to make everyone as much of a selfish jerk as possible when Katzman came back.

Yeah, and having disliked the Dream Season as much as I did, I couldn't have been happier. I wrote this about it when I re-watched everything:

JR’s yearlong devotion to his dead brother’s memory is immediately jettisoned now Bobby’s back from the dead and re-engaged to Pam. Like Jeff, Bobby warns his brother to stay out of his marriage: “I’m bringing Pam back here to the ranch as my wife and the first time you step out of line with her, JR, Sue Ellen will be a very attractive widow.” JR’s contemptuous response — “You’re a whole lot dumber than I ever thought a brother of mine could be, with the exception of Ray and Gary, of course” — is a classic. God, it's good to see the Ewing boys at each other’s throats again. In fact, resetting the DALLAS clock back one year means that nearly all the show’s relationships are far more adversarial than they were even an episode ago: Ray and Donna go from being the smuggest couple in Soap Land to the most poignant, Cliff and Jamie stop fawning over each other and start sniping at one another amusingly, former allies JR and Jack are suddenly bitter adversaries, and the recently well-behaved Sue Ellen is back to swigging cocktails at lunch and making cynical wisecracks about everyone in sight. In each case, it’s a big dramatic improvement.

Throwing off the shackles of a year’s worth of storylines means that DALLAS feels similarly liberated. Running parallel to KNOTS’ senatorial story (the lightness of which is best illustrated by the sequence where Gary gets a fit of the giggles while trying to film a TV ad for his campaign), DALLAS has its own political plot which is similarly fun while also incorporating a wide range of characters. In order to combat OPEC’s stranglehold on the oil industry, Jamie comes up with the bright idea of lobbying Washington to place a tariff on all imported oil. Cliff chauvinistically passes off this idea as his own, winning the approval of the Dallas oil community in the process. JR, in turn, steals Cliff’s thunder by persuading Donna to head up the lobby, a decision which threatens to impact her already troubled marriage to Ray, who has developed a bond with Jenna following her split from Bobby, … and so on.

Following its bizarre yet sweet introductory scene, “Return to Camelot” is something of a slow burn ep compared to the other season premieres. Nonetheless, it has a power, a grandeur. The location scenes — a Fort Worth cattle auction, the anti-OPEC meeting at Energy Square — recall past DALLAS glories, while the familiar musical score takes the show back to its roots. Likewise, Bobby and Pam breaking the news of their engagement to their dismayed relatives recalls the aftermath of their elopement at the very beginning of the series. Ironically, while mocking his brother Steven’s idealism on last season’s DYNASTY, Adam Carrington referred to Camelot as a dream. According to the title of this week’s opener, DALLAS regards it as the exact opposite.

Yet DALLAS also feels more aware this season — both of its own history (JR and Cliff’s eye-rolling reactions to Bobby and Pam’s news, while perfectly in character, are laugh-out-loud funny in a way they couldn’t have been in 1978) and of the outside world. Given that “South East Asia” was as specific as the show got during its offshore drilling and counterrevolution storylines of Seasons 2 and 3, JR’s passing wisecrack — “Any chance that Iraq/Iran war’ll spread?” — is surprising, as much for its specificity as its irreverence. Similarly, given how culturally parochial the Ewings have always been, Bobby quoting Woody Allen feels strange — but not strange in the stilted way that Donna and Ellie rearranging the Southfork furniture did last season — just looser and more playful.

Another example of that playfulness is the new depiction of Sue Ellen. During what can now be referred to as "the dream season”, she solemnly underwent a lengthy process of recovery in order to get sober and “become my own person.” This culminated in her reconciling with JR once again, but on a far healthier and more mutually respectful basis than ever before. This week’s episode delights in throwing all of that of the window. Whereas JR stopped her in her tracks towards the end of last season with the simple statement, “There's a magic between us, Sue Ellen. I know that and so do you”, here it’s Sue Ellen who tells JR, “There’s something between us that I’ve never found with another man,” before getting him to admit he feels the same way about her. However, this time it is part of a mock seduction scene designed to humiliate JR. “Well, you’re never gonna have me!” she tells him. Forget rehab and AA and becoming your own person, “hating you the way I do’s enough to keep me sober.” Hallelujah.
 
Yes, for entirely opposite reasons, Angelica, because she was such a radically different character for Dallas, and Pam and Mark, because they were still recognisably who they had always been, were my favourite things about the Dream Season.



Yeah, and having disliked the Dream Season as much as I did, I couldn't have been happier. I wrote this about it when I re-watched everything:
yep, and as I learned in my stint at the Institute For Advanced Awareness (in between longer stays at Fletcher Sanitarium), it’s ok if we prefer different things!

I actually think my DALLAS fandom is more “comfort nostalgia” than anything, so sometimes too much yelling and bickering (if it doesn’t involve Jock’s ‘Old West hardass’ interventions, which might be my favorite thing in the whole show) isn’t my ‘cup of herbal tea’, especially if accompanied by jangly rhythm-section music instead of more calming strings.
 

Mustard

Telly Talk TV Fanatic
Can we agree that after Pam wakes up, Ray turns into a total dick? He places the entire blame for the breakdown of their marriage and eventual divorce on Donna, showing no recognition for her contributions or the support she has given him.

His hostility extends to Bobby as well, acting as if Bobby “dumped” Jenna and discarded her, when in fact she ended the relationship. Had she not made that choice, Bobby likely would have stayed with her. And then there’s Jenna’s pregnancy — Bobby didn’t even know she was expecting, though Ray acts as if he knew and told Jenna to go eat yellow snow. If he had known, coupled with her not ending things, he certainly would have married her.

In short, Ray’s attitude makes even Cliff’s sexist behavior seem mild by comparison.
Ray was a bit of a dick late in Season 8 DVD. If I remember right, the last scene before "the dream" started in the episode Swansong was Ray and Donna talking at night about their marital problems. The next scene (i.e. the start of the dream) was the following morning, with Bobby at Pam's place before his "death".

In Season 9 DVD (the dream season), Ray and Donna sort out their marital problems, despite Donna's miscarriage of her down's syndrome baby, and they get closer than ever as they also adopt Tony. In Season 10 DVD, none of the previous season's events ever happened, so Ray and Donna never sorted out their marital problems and Donna is not only pregnant but gives birth to a daughter.
 

Spooky Owl!

Telly Talk Supreme
Ray was a bit of a dick late in Season 8 DVD. If I remember right, the last scene before "the dream" started in the episode Swansong was Ray and Donna talking at night about their marital problems. The next scene (i.e. the start of the dream) was the following morning, with Bobby at Pam's place before his "death".

In Season 9 DVD (the dream season), Ray and Donna sort out their marital problems, despite Donna's miscarriage of her down's syndrome baby, and they get closer than ever as they also adopt Tony. In Season 10 DVD, none of the previous season's events ever happened, so Ray and Donna never sorted out their marital problems and Donna is not only pregnant but gives birth to a daughter.

Ray & Donna should have lost custody of Tony due to his euthanasia of Mickey Trotter -- that could split the couple permanently.
 
Yes, for entirely opposite reasons, Angelica, because she was such a radically different character for Dallas, and Pam and Mark, because they were still recognisably who they had always been, were my favourite things about the Dream Season.
I thought it was hilarious that they chose a Nicaraguan, an American, and.. was the actress who played Grace actually Canadian or am I making that up? ..to play 3 ‘Europeans’, with ‘European’ essentially translating to ‘bizarrely stiff and formal’ for the producers and audience.
 
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