Roger Grimes -- when did it all happen...?

Snarky Oracle!

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As we know, the tale of Roger Grimes, his affair with Alexis, and his beating at the hand of Blake Carrington, if not re-written was enhanced more than once during the course of DYNASTY's nine season run.

** According to Season 2, Blake caught Alexis with Roger, threw her out of the country after quickie divorce in 1965, and she was never seen until Blake's murder trial sixteen years later in 1981 just "two months" after Roger died in prison.

** According to Season 5, it is established that Blake and Alexis attempted a reconciliation for several months which collapsed leading to her expulsion in October 1963, and Amanda born in April 1964.

** According to Season 9, Blake threw Alexis out in 1964 and she went to find Roger whom tiny Fallon then killed in the cottage on the edge of the estate property, grandpa Tom cleaning up the mess and skirting Alexis away.


Which one makes sense? Or you prefer? And what umbrella explanation can rationalize the contradictions?


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Zable

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Wasn't there something about Roger's dad too? Somewhere between S2 and 5, I think. What was the story there and when were the events? Ta.
 

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I can think of two explanations for all the contradictions:

1) I don't think we should necessarily assume each season corresponds to a calendar year; some seasons may depict events which took place over more than one year. Season one may have depicted events which occurred earlier than 1981. Perhaps there is some time-compression going on in the interest of forwarding the plot; this would explain Krystina aging rapidly and Dex saying he and Alexis had been together for eight years.

2) It would be an understatement to say that Alexis is unreliable; I take everything she says with a Lot's wife sized pinch of salt. "Blake crippled Roger": Roger was in a wheelchair (as all patients are) when he was released from the hospital. Blake threatened to disfigure her: could be a bold-faced lie or Blake could have said it with no intention following through. Roger died before she returned to Denver: perhaps Jake Dunham's office told her Grimes had been missing for several years and presumed dead which she took to mean really most sincerely dead. Grimes wife may have had him declared dead for insurance and inheritance reasons.

I really don't have a problem with the discrepancies in the Grimes story as several people are telling us information (Rashomon style) leaving the viewer (and John Zorelli) to figure it all out.

What I do have a problem - a HUGE problem - with is Sean being conveniently by the side of the river when Alexis drives her car off the bridge. That is a coincidence Dickens would have scoffed at.
 

Michael Torrance

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As we know, the tale of Roger Grimes, his affair with Alexis, and his beating at the hand of Blake Carrington, if not re-written was enhanced more than once during the course of DYNASTY's nine season run.

** According to Season 2, Blake caught Alexis with Roger, threw her out of the country after quickie divorce in 1965, and she was never seen until Blake's murder trial sixteen years later in 1981 just "two months" after Roger died in prison.

** According to Season 5, Amanda was 20 and turning 21 in April of 1985, with it established that Blake and Alexis attempted a reconciliation for several months which collapsed leading to her expulsion in October 1963, and Amanda born in April 1964.

** According to Season 9, Blake threw Alexis out in 1964 and she went to find Roger whom tiny Fallon then killed in the cottage on the edge of the estate property, grandpa Tom cleaning up the mess and skirting Alexis away.

Which one makes sense? Or you prefer? And what umbrella explanation can rationalize the contradictions?

There were problems with both season 5 and season 9 versions. In season 5, the reconciliation made no sense. Why couldn't Alexis have left already pregnant? (And don't get my started on a mother who has lost one son to kidnappers and two to a forced custody arrangement dumping her daughter to her sister).

But the worst part of the reconciliation is that it dilutes the mythical exile from Eden image of Alexis being forced out from a raging, almost homicidal Blake and makes it so that the two would have been back again for a few months like two alienated spouses on couples therapy. Then at that point why couldn't they have made some arrangement where she slept in a separate bedroom and they were no longer partners in bed? She would be good for social events and the kids would keep their mother.

With season 9, I did not like the ridiculousness of pre-k Fallon killing Roger and not even Alexis remembering. I would have preferred it if Tom had killed him when Roger found out about the art collection and blackmailed him.

The inconsistencies of when Roger died and whether he was crippled can be attributed to people giving their own versions. I mean, to hear Steven tell it, Blake killed Ted Dinard. To hear Fallon tell it, she pushed him. And the D.A. in season 2 was may be telling Alexis that he can confirm that Roger Grimes died 2 months ago--aka that is when his family finally declared him dead, leaving out details he thought were inconvenient or not important for her.
 
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Snarky Oracle!

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I can rationalize the Season 2 and Season 9 versions easily enough, even throwing in the Season 5 "reconciliation" before Blake throws Alexis out a second time -- had that second reconciliation not gone on for "months" and having happened, supposedly, as early as 1963.

I don't mind retcons so much as long as an umbrella explanation can canopy them all, or even a character's "mistake" can be cited in the script to explain the discrepancies or contradictions, even humorously (e.g., "Why does mother say you were only married for 7 years?" to which someone, like Blake, can respond, "Because she doesn't count the last three" or even "Alexis has always lied about her age.")

Alexis' -- to say nothing of Joan's -- selective memory is the go-to central point with which to explain all continuity errors.

DALLAS, even in its best years, had those back story continuity issues -- actually, quite a lot of them (e.g., were Ellie and Jock married in 1930 or 1936 or 1938? Were Pam and Bobby born in late 1952, or Patrick's true birthyear of 1949 and Victoria's of 1997? Were JR and Sue Ellen married in 1971 or 1970? Was Sue Ellen Miss Texas in 1967 or 1968? Were Punk and Mavis Anderson married 10 years or 25? and perhaps, after a brief estrangement, they renewed their vows after 15 years "and started the count all over again", etc ...)

This kind of boo-boo is inevitable in a long-running show, even the best-produced among them. But there were far too many discrepancies in DYNASTY, oft-stated ones.

The above point is a good one: why couldn't Alexis have left Denver pregnant without a "reconciliation" required in the dialogue?

This is how I've long-aligned the Dynastic history:

*Alexis married Blake at age 17 (as women often did in the 1950s) just after her birthday in 1954. It follows a whirlwind romance that seems to involve Moldavia and Cecil Colby. And probably her predatorily opportunistic mother, Minx.

*Adam is born around March 1955, kidnapped off the street six months later, in September 1955; he returns to Denver in 1982 at 27 years old.

*There is a housefire in the summer of 1955, which leads Blake to purchase the mansion and move into it -- but how can he afford it, if Denver-Carrington wasn't founded until 1958? (I've always thought 1953 made more sense -- but perhaps he'd had a false start with a start-up company which was re-christened as "Denver-Carrington" in 1958). And was the Summer 1955 fire the one that killed Ellen Carrington, when that was, according to Season 6, before Blake and Alexis were married? But then, perhaps housefires were a recurrent issue for the Carringtons... And it can be stated that Blake's assertion that his mother died when he was only "four" was a benign fib to protect his babies from the horror of the truth about the fire(s) just as he kept from Fallon & Steven any knowledge that they'd once had a big brother who'd went away suddenly.

*How could Blake's mother have left a huge crater to her son if his parents were impoverished? And how could Adam assert that he belongs to one of the oldest and most respected families in Colorado when Blake has only been rich and famous for a mere 30 years? Simple, Blake's mother, Ellen Lucy Fallon was a member of the (Catholic?) Fallon family dynasty of Colorado Spring (or Boulder or Aspen) who disowned and disinherited sweet Ellen when she dared marry a Presbyterian minister from Philadelphia, Tom Carrington... Tom cheated on and abused his bride, insodoing eventually fracturing his relationship with his eldest son, Blake, who, after WW2, set out for his mama's home state to become an oil wildcatter in the same industry the Fallon dynasty had made their millions... Tom had wound up running a small high seas shipping liner business and, even more oddly, came to own the company after the war, attempting to make amends with his son by offering Blake enough early funding to help with the necessary infrastructure to start up Denver-Carrington; Blake, suspicious immediately and not one to be bought, gives his father a small percentage of the company and its future profits, initially unaware of the shame of the true story behind Tom's new-found wealth (which would see a many-fold increase once Denver-Carrington exploded into success as the '50s progressed). Pleased that her son is doing so well, the Fallon family reabsorbs Ellen into their clan, reincluding her in the will just shortly before her own tragic death in that fire.

*Fallon was born around January 1956.

*Steven was born in late May 1957.

*(I won't go into my Alexis-had-Joseph's-baby-named-Kirby-in-1961-and-then-presents-the-infant-to-Alycia-in-the-hospital-which-drives-Mrs.Aynders-irreparably-insane scenario, although I love the theory, because it's just too weird for some fans).

*With jealous and vengeful Caress' whispers into his ears, Blake catches Alexis in bed with Roger Grimes -- in the master bedroom, no less! -- in June 1964, just three days after Steven's seventh birthday.

*Six weeks later, if we need a reconciliation between Blake and Alexis, it can fall apart over a single weekend (not months, as Season 5 proffered, and not in 1963) and then, desperate and rejected yet again, she goes to find Roger Grimes, fresh out of the hospital from the beating he received at the hands of Blake the previous month.

*Perhaps the divorce -- quickie but nonetheless complicated -- was finalized in January 1965, vaguely supporting the "sixteen formative years" history laid out in the script from 1981 (although I always thought "17 years" would have given Blake, or Andrew Laird, an opportunity to snipe about "locust plague" cycles --- did Lucius ever say that about Cookie?? -- once Alexis returned to testify).

*The discrepancy about when Roger Grimes died (1964 in the cottage and tossed into the bottom of that lake, or 1981 "two months ago" in prison) can be explained with a shrug, Alexis claiming that the assistant D.A. had likely had no idea when Roger died and simply lied to her about it in order to manipulate her into returning to Denver to testify against her ex)... I'm assuming Roger's Dad was still in prison for kidnapping or dead himself by Season 9. And one supposes Nick Toscanni's contracting of the elder Grimes to steal Little Blake wasn't relevant to later storylines, but a mention might have been cozy.

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But the ~15 year "mysterious" era between the mid-1960s and the beginning of the '80s seems implicitly fundamental to DYNASTY's identity, imperfect and suffocated and misguided as the show and its execution often was. Those "shadows" feel somehow real, at least whenever they tapped into that, whether deliberately or not. DYNASTY as a series was both out-of-control but yet over-controlled, and the imbalance didn't always work, the Carrington saga, with its rich potential so desperate to be mined, a bit less than the sum of its parts.

One could maybe find a way to apply that same ~1965 to 1980 era thing to the other shows as well, the cultural meltdown that began in the middle of the '60s, the murky, nightmarish phantasmagoria of the climaxing Cold War that existed when JFK was assassinated, followed by the counterculture psychedelic desolation of the late-'60s, then the melancholy refractory period of the 1970s, and the reunion of all these soapy people in the acquisitive, revisionism of the 1980s.

Say, DALLAS... the record-setting rating for the Whodunnit? episode wrap-up to the "Who Shot JR?" global cliffhanger, an unprecedented TV event, occurring on 21 November 1980, some seventeen years to almost the day after an infamous real-life Dallas shooting -- one which would become arguably the greatest murder mystery in human history, the assassination of President Kennedy... That works for me in a weird way: many see JFK's death as the end of America as a democracy, such as it was, a literal coup d'état and a total capitulation to the military contractors and a federal government the corporations view as their business agents. And certainly the country has been moving consistently to the political right ever since (rhetorical leftist pretenses to the contrary), the decimation of the working class given its coup de grâce under the auspices of President Reagan in the '80s, a man who ravaged the unions and anti-trust laws while eliminating the progressive tax structure (where the more you make the more you pay). Making it impossible for most Americans to recapture the opportunities or the "cultural values" of the 1950s which Ronald Reagan so extolled and nostalgized.

And that led us to where we are now in the States: a warlike late-stage capitalist country with the #1 economy in the world yet is #37 in quality of life. And that's about money. Money endlessly re-routed from the working class (and the former middle class) to the point that the corporate-crony government is 100% corrupt and does nothing for its people (and is constantly scheming to do even less) unless those people are of the billionaire donor class.

So the factual shooting of JFK and the fictional shooting of JR, both in Dallas and both occurring or wrapping up on 21/22 November, separated by seventeen years, seems meaningful. At least in terms of drama. At least inside my head.

I'm sure Jacqueline Perrault was up to nightmarish no good circa 1964... I postulate elsewhere that her Cuban casinos were nationalized by Castro in 1959, so she funded the CIA/anti-Castro rebels in their attempts to assassinate the premier, eventually turning the conspiracy back onto "uncooperative Stateside politicians," and in her hydra-headed efforts, facilitating gain-of-function development of super-viruses to kill him, her wildly-powerful linear particle generator located under a New Orleans children's hospital utilized in the related lab experiments, the resulting Simian mutations somehow seeping into the general population (as devastatingly happened in the '50s with the earliest polio vaccine) and coming to pandemic fruition in the '80s. (i.e., Lana Turner killed Kennedy and released AIDS into the world, the glamorous toxic bitch).

But where were all these people from 1965 until at least the end of the 1970s?? Dropping acid with Timothy Leary?, profiting obscenely from the Vietnam war (the one they call "the American war" in Vietnam)?, engaging in hippie orgies along the walkways of Haight-Ashbury city parks?, protesting something at Berkley?, opening a Carnaby Street boutique?, or, inevitably doing something -- or anything -- somewhere in Paris? Burning out and winding up in a cocaine and THC-laden disco haze, multiple rehabs in their recent pasts, before all agreeing to re-invent and re-identify themselves by returning to Denver (or to Southfork, or Knots Landing, or to that most-shadowy corner of Napa known as Tuscany Valley) at the onset of the decade of the 1980s -- to regroup, to make some money, or just to be seen.

Especially now that Angela Channing's ex-husband was in the White House.

I still say Roger Grimes was an Oswald-ian low-level intelligence grunt who hired on to the Carrington estate reconstruction project in 1963 to locate that crystal skull der Fuhrer's recently-widowed spouse was so determined to reclaim as her own, with a little help from her buds at the CIA.

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ArchieLucasCarringtonEwing1989

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1) I don't think we should necessarily assume each season corresponds to a calendar year; some seasons may depict events which took place over more than one year. Season one may have depicted events which occurred earlier than 1981. Perhaps there is some time-compression going on in the interest of forwarding the plot; this would explain Krystina aging rapidly and Dex saying he and Alexis had been together for eight years.

I like this, the idea that season 1 took place over the course of 12 to even 18 months.

It fits in with early season 9, where by that point it was summer to winter 1988, they remark that Blake and Krystle’s first wedding was “nine years ago” even though their onscreen wedding aired in the early 1981, which would be seven and a bit years prior to mid-late 1988, by saying it was nine years ago, this places their first wedding in the autumn of 1979, and somehow I find this fits in with Krystle’s character, not only Krystle but also Claudia and Steven, the winds of change in that final autumn of the 1970s
 

Snarky Oracle!

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I like this, the idea that season 1 took place over the course of 12 to even 18 months.

It fits in with early season 9, where by that point it was summer to winter 1988, they remark that Blake and Krystle’s first wedding was “nine years ago” even though their onscreen wedding aired in the early 1981, which would be seven and a bit years prior to mid-late 1988, by saying it was nine years ago, this places their first wedding in the autumn of 1979, and somehow I find this fits in with Krystle’s character, not only Krystle but also Claudia and Steven, the winds of change in that final autumn of the 1970s

Didn't they say during Blake's trial at the end of the season that he and Krystle had been married for 10 months? I can understand the "nine year" thing -- the show didn't premiere until January 1981, but the wedding took place either in May or August of 1980 (depending on the source or wall calendar you rely on) and Krystle's last episode aired in January 1989, so I guess they decided that nine seasons translated into "nine years" and I'm fine with it.

But these dates are always up for dispute and debate and, for the most part, don't really make sense. And nobody keeps a family bible of character-related dates for a show (even if they should) in order to keep them consistent.

I mean, even in the first season, they decide Roger Grimes died on the night of November 12, 1980 (which seems a wee bit early, even if B&K were married in, say, September) and then there's the date on that receipt where Krystle, her name misspelled, tried to pawn and reproduce her emerald necklace (which clearly occurred in the fall or December at the very latest).

And that was when the show still knew what it was doing.

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But then this is a series that re-used its banal episodic titles multiple times. So time frames aren't going to matter at all.
 

Snarky Oracle!

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And Blake can confess that the mid-'60s "were a blur" to him and "so very long ago ... a lifetime ago!", so his recollections -- not much better than his ex-wife's -- regarding dates and years aren't entirely reliable.

When someone asks him about his previous Season 5 assertion that he'd thrown Alexis out "in 1963" and that Amanda was born in "April 1964," Blake can just rub his face and groan and correct himself to the preferred framework: e.g., separated in 1964, divorce finalized in January 1965, Amanda born in April 1965.

People make those mistakes in real life all the time.

But sometimes it looks like 1986:
 

Alexis

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Why wasn't this flashback in black-and-white?? And why didn't Joan have a highly-recognizable Jackie Kennedy/Laura Petrie hairdo with a headband a la the early-'60s??

Hell, Jackie probably gave it to her!

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It's funny to see Joan burst into laughter doing this scene on the DYNASTY bloopers reel on YouTube. It really must have been a lot of fun to film these "serious" scenes all day while knowing how ridiculous they are and having fun while doing it.
 

Ked

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It's funny to see Joan burst into laughter doing this scene on the DYNASTY bloopers reel on YouTube. It really must have been a lot of fun to film these "serious" scenes all day while knowing how ridiculous they are and having fun while doing it.

Do you have a link? :D
 

Lankershim Blasdel 1

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The recon in season 5 didn’t deviate too much from the original , it was possible that they had a reconciliation briefly that wasn’t mentioned in 2.
Season 9 it was completely altered and ridiculous that Alexis and even Fallon (who he made younger) would completely forget such an incident.
I did appreciate one thing, he made Alexis human again and she wasn’t since her arrival.
Crying over Sable sleeping with Dex when her own daughter did the same all she did was smash some of her Knick knacks off the table.
No “ you want a young woman or I was waiting for something like this because I’m older but with my own kid I never dreamed” she just dismissed Amanda as being immature not her being post menopausal.
And at that point she looked old, the wig , makeup and old lady styling , blurry lens, she wasn’t the vamp from 2 and 3
By 9 she looked like a drag Queen
 

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Snarky Oracle!

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The recon in season 5 didn’t deviate too much from the original , it was possible that they had a reconciliation briefly that wasn’t mentioned in 2.
Season 9 it was completely altered and ridiculous that Alexis and even Fallon (who he made younger) would completely forget such an incident.

I think Season 5 changed it more -- the reconciliation was now several months long and Alexis, as it turns out, was pregnant with Amanda.

All Season 9 did was tell us more than we'd already knew. And if Fallon was a tiny tyke and was convinced by her grandfather that it was a dream, and Alexis was unconscious on the floor of the cottage, then why couldn't it have happened??

But the age shift -- from 8 to 5 -- for Fallon is a problem. As is Roger's blown-dry coif, not typical (or even acceptable) for a man in 1964 -- even for artsy beatniks.

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Snarky Oracle!

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At one point, @ArchieLucasCarringtonEwing1989 posted this:


I kinda remember most of what I wrote in the original posting on the old forum, so please bear with me, this was my favourite post and a number of people liked it too, so I thought I'd revive for Snarky, so I am going to write it again and add some more thoughts, forgive me it's not in its entirety, I may save posts into notes in future.

As I remember saying Dynasty, like the 80s overall, had an obsession with the 1950s-60s era.

Even though that those two decades are so completely different from each other they may as well be in different planets, after all the year 1951 has nothing in common with the year 1968 so I'm going to narrow this down to the years 1955-1964, the '70s on the other hand were completely ignored during that period in time (the years 1970-74 was sort of nostalgic in the mid to late 80s probably due to the fact that it was still "the sixties" albeit an extended bit) and similarily Dynasty also ignored the 70s, Dynasty never once explained anything that might've happened from the time Alexis was banished from Denver in 1964 to when Krystle arrived in 1978, just two and a bit years before she married Blake.

We know that Kirby left Denver for France in the mid 70s, it seems that she was gone away for some years before her return in 1982, but aside from this nothing.

Blake can't have been a lonely bachelor for 14 years and grieving the loss of his marriage to Alexis, early Blake was brusque in his manner and he rose above things.

Interestingly in season 9 Fallon mentions to Krystle that she alone brought them more closer as a family than they ever could have, this statement means to me that Blake hardly ever saw his children when they were teenagers.

So what could Blake have been doing all those years before Krystle?

Someone mentioned on the old forum that Blake and Alexis marriage matched an idealised time in America's history as they were married roughly around the Americana years, again I place this era to be mid 1950s to Kennedy's assassination/aftermath in 1963-64 when after that the sixties really "began".


-----------------------------------

Yes, had there ever been a prequel movie or series (which was never going to happen; we got CW's nuDYNASTY instead which never got out of the basement yet mysteriously ran five years anyway) this would have been the territory to cover: Blake's post-war wildcatting activities, the '50s engagement and "ideal" marriage of Blake & Alexis, the final meltdown of their connubial bond in the middle of the '60s, the "lost" and disillusioned phase of the '70s when Alexis is beachcombing and Blake and his two young children, Fallon and Steven, are the tiny family unit wandering that big, shadowed house with the pointlessly small windows, the kids off-to-school for three or four years before returning in 1980 for Blake's marriage to his new bride, Krystle Grant Jennings.

Does it really matter which year Blake & Alexis split up?

I suppose it doesn't, really. But the cultural schism, the jagged black line that bifurcated the decade of the 1960s, seems the appropriate parallel for Alexis' banishment from Blake's kingdom forever.

Season 1 said the break-up happened in 1965 ("sixteen years ago").

Season 5 said the break-up happened in 1963 (for several months!), Alexis thrown out for good in October 1963.

Season 9 said the break-up happened in 1964 (I'd be satisfied with being told that the divorce was finalized in January 1965) the separation probably occurring June '64 just after Steven's birthday.

Again, does it matter?? A little continuity is always nice with these things, and sometimes contradictions have to be dealt with or rationalized (or ignored).

When people discuss the 1960s (which has gone on since the 1960s) there is often a debate about which year "changed," where the metaphoric line was passed and we went from past-to-future.

Some even cite 1962, because it was the year of the Cuban Missile Crisis (in late-October) and Hitler may have died in February '62!! -- that is, if you believe in stuff like that. But 1962 seems a little early to me; it's really not yet at the cusp.

Some people cite 1963 because, among other things, JFK was assassinated in November. And as cataclysmic as it was, as eerie as the event was (the metaphoric pin in the balloon of Cold War tension which had been building ever since the advent of The Bomb at the end of WW2 nearly twenty years earlier), 1963 is still squarely in that haunted cemetery that was the early-'60s.

Some people leap ahead all the way to 1968, the most volatile year domestically of the decade. But that's too late -- the post-apocalyptic vibe of the late-'60s had already been in place for a couple of years, even if '68 seemed like the climax.

Some people cite 1964 as the psychic cusp of the decade, as a shadowed year which has -- almost supernaturally -- a foot squarely in both halves... And while I'm probably in that camp, to a point, nevertheless, the year that started out still feeling like the early-'60s yet finished up our knowing unequivocally that the new era had arrived.... is 1965.

Should Blake & Alexis break-up follow this pattern? (Whatever the pattern is). I'd say: "Yes, it's nice."

So let's say:

Blake caught Alexis in bed with Roger Grimes in early June of 1964, beats Roger with that candlestick and puts him in the hospital for a month; a weekend reconciliation attempt failed before the end of July 1964 (after which, Alexis goes to a recovered Roger who rejects her and beats her into unconsciousness on the floor of the cottage; resultingly, Fallon shoots him to death; Grandpa cleans up everything). The divorce is finalized in January 1965, and Amanda is born in London in April 1965 (nineteen years before Blake even knew she existed).


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I also want Caress involved in this: she tells Blake where to catch het sister and Roger in the sack. 6 weeks later, blood dripping from the back of his head, a vengeful Roger stumbles down from the cottage to the mansion kitchen at night, and rapes his former paramour on the floor, followed by her stabbing Roger to death, finishing the job little Fallon failed to complete. Again, Tom Carrington cleans up the mess.
 
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Toni

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