pete lashmar
Telly Talk Addict
So, what did kill the show off in your opinion?
What ultimately killed Dallas?
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WarriorsFan
Telly Talk Active Member
At the height of its popularity, Dallas was a global pop culture phenomenon that spawned the other primetime soaps (some more successful than others) and even influenced the daytime soaps. Primetime soaps reached their peak in the spring of 1985 and then fell hard from the fall of 1985 onward. Fall 1985 also saw the resurgence of sitcoms thanks to The Cosby Show. Also historical events during 1985/1986 (AIDS crisis, Challenger, Chernobyl) were a sign that the world was changing and the superpowers were no longer invincible.
CBS was a mess in primetime once Dallas was no longer in the top 10. I think CBS's primetime soaps lasted longer than they should have because CBS was having a difficult time launching successful new primetime dramas after the peak of primetime soaps. It's funny that Murder She Wrote premiered in the 1984/1985 season which was the peak of primetime soaps and in their first season finished 8th, ahead of Knots Landing (9th, it's only Top 10 finish) and Falcon Crest (10th, it's third and final Top 10 finish), and in its second season 1985/1986 finished 3rd (it's highest ever) ahead of Dallas (6th) and Dynasty (7th). By it's third season 1986/1987 Murder She Wrote was CBS's only scripted program to finish in the Top 10; Dallas finished at 11th that season. CBS's primetime soaps ended in the early 1990s, Murder She Wrote was dumped in the mid-1990s, Touched by an Angel had a brief Top 10 run in the late 1990s. 2000 was the start of CSI and that show became CBS's biggest hit drama since Dallas.
CBS was a mess in primetime once Dallas was no longer in the top 10. I think CBS's primetime soaps lasted longer than they should have because CBS was having a difficult time launching successful new primetime dramas after the peak of primetime soaps. It's funny that Murder She Wrote premiered in the 1984/1985 season which was the peak of primetime soaps and in their first season finished 8th, ahead of Knots Landing (9th, it's only Top 10 finish) and Falcon Crest (10th, it's third and final Top 10 finish), and in its second season 1985/1986 finished 3rd (it's highest ever) ahead of Dallas (6th) and Dynasty (7th). By it's third season 1986/1987 Murder She Wrote was CBS's only scripted program to finish in the Top 10; Dallas finished at 11th that season. CBS's primetime soaps ended in the early 1990s, Murder She Wrote was dumped in the mid-1990s, Touched by an Angel had a brief Top 10 run in the late 1990s. 2000 was the start of CSI and that show became CBS's biggest hit drama since Dallas.
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Grangehill1
Telly Talk Fan
The dream killed Dallas.
Recasting Miss Ellie damaged the show. But not beyond repair. And we were all still watching right up to Swansong.
The first half of season 9 after Bobby has gone is outstanding. The second half is a bit of a mess. But things really do fall off the cliff when Patrick ended up in the shower and explained it all as a dream.
The show couldn’t be taken seriously any more and it wasn’t.
Pair that with the atrocious cheap look of season 10 and the beginnings of really camp storylines, viewers switched off.
Recasting Miss Ellie damaged the show. But not beyond repair. And we were all still watching right up to Swansong.
The first half of season 9 after Bobby has gone is outstanding. The second half is a bit of a mess. But things really do fall off the cliff when Patrick ended up in the shower and explained it all as a dream.
The show couldn’t be taken seriously any more and it wasn’t.
Pair that with the atrocious cheap look of season 10 and the beginnings of really camp storylines, viewers switched off.
Pamela_E
Admin Emerita
I'm actually watching the later years again and have to admit to really enjoying them.
I actually think they did a good job in reinventing the show after Pam left.
There were some great characters introduced like Kimberly Cryder, McKay, etc.
Sue Ellen is deliciously fab in season 11(dvd). The ranch war was also great, and gave Ellie a much needed bit of backbone.
It's interesting looking at the ratings as the start of season 12 had higher ratings than Pam's exit (nearly 5 million more).
But by the end of season 12 they were down below 20 million and by 1990 even worse, easily beaten by Knots Landing who continued to hold their audience.
In 1991 it was dropping to numbers like 12 million, shedding 10 million viewers over two years.
The final episode in 1991 sent it back up to the top with 33 million viewers.
Sue Ellen's exit was one of the lowest cliffhangers but only a million or so lower than Pam's, it does seem that ratings take a dive after Sue Ellen's exit.
After Sue Ellen goes the show is getting around 17 million, Knots is still doing over 21million.
So I think it was a combination of fav characters going, and the show just not generally in a good place at the start of the 13th season (dvd) and viewers not overly interested.
Knots does well because it could shift with the times and it still had its core characters.
I actually think they did a good job in reinventing the show after Pam left.
There were some great characters introduced like Kimberly Cryder, McKay, etc.
Sue Ellen is deliciously fab in season 11(dvd). The ranch war was also great, and gave Ellie a much needed bit of backbone.
It's interesting looking at the ratings as the start of season 12 had higher ratings than Pam's exit (nearly 5 million more).
But by the end of season 12 they were down below 20 million and by 1990 even worse, easily beaten by Knots Landing who continued to hold their audience.
In 1991 it was dropping to numbers like 12 million, shedding 10 million viewers over two years.
The final episode in 1991 sent it back up to the top with 33 million viewers.
Sue Ellen's exit was one of the lowest cliffhangers but only a million or so lower than Pam's, it does seem that ratings take a dive after Sue Ellen's exit.
After Sue Ellen goes the show is getting around 17 million, Knots is still doing over 21million.
So I think it was a combination of fav characters going, and the show just not generally in a good place at the start of the 13th season (dvd) and viewers not overly interested.
Knots does well because it could shift with the times and it still had its core characters.
I'm glad to hear that you're still enjoying your rewatch @Pamela_E
I voted for "Original Cast leaving" although I don't think it was just the original cast. For me I really missed April when she was killed off. I think the final season lacks the female characters. Miss Ellie and Lucy have left again. They try to fill this void by guest stars like Barbara Eden and Susan Lucci but it doesn't work 100 %.
Also I bet that Bobby mourning more for April than he did for Pam didn't sit well with some fans who preferred Bobby & Pam as a couple.
I remember a teacher telling me he actually lost interest in Dallas when April started coming back from the dead like Bobby had come back. He got confused by all these "dream sequences" and tuned out. So well I think one of the final nails in the coffins was April being killed off.
If this same question had applied to Dallas TNT I would have said that it was the writing that failed that show.
I voted for "Original Cast leaving" although I don't think it was just the original cast. For me I really missed April when she was killed off. I think the final season lacks the female characters. Miss Ellie and Lucy have left again. They try to fill this void by guest stars like Barbara Eden and Susan Lucci but it doesn't work 100 %.
Also I bet that Bobby mourning more for April than he did for Pam didn't sit well with some fans who preferred Bobby & Pam as a couple.
I remember a teacher telling me he actually lost interest in Dallas when April started coming back from the dead like Bobby had come back. He got confused by all these "dream sequences" and tuned out. So well I think one of the final nails in the coffins was April being killed off.
If this same question had applied to Dallas TNT I would have said that it was the writing that failed that show.
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DallasFanForever
Telly Talk Supreme
The loss of Muriel. The show never recovered.
Billy Wall
Telly Talk Dream Maker
All of the above. All good things must come to an end. It was on the air for an astonishing 14 years with almost enough episodes to fill a calendar year.
Pamela_E
Admin Emerita
I'm glad to hear that you're still enjoying your rewatch @Pamela_E
I voted for "Original Cast leaving" although I don't think it was just the original cast. For me I really missed April when she was killed off. I think the final season lacks the female characters. Miss Ellie and Lucy have left again. They try to fill this void by guest stars like Barbara Eden and Susan Lucci but it doesn't work 100 %.
Also I bet that Bobby mourning more for April than he did for Pam didn't sit well with some fans who preferred Bobby & Pam as a couple.
I remember a teacher telling me he actually lost interest in Dallas when April started coming back from the dead like Bobby had come back. He got confused by all these "dream sequences" and tuned out. So well I think one of the final nails in the coffins was April being killed off.
If this same question had applied to Dallas TNT I would have said that it was the writing that failed that show.
By the time April died the ratings were much lower. I like April but she was not pulling in the viewers.
Perhaps of the format strayed too far from the original concept then the show lost its fanbase.
Maybe they could deal with the loss of Pamela but loosing Sue Ellen just sent it too far off it's axis. It was probably a combination of things, including viewer fatigue.
Pamela_E
Admin Emerita
Well it still held its ratings after Pam left, seems Sue Ellen's exit left more of a dent.
Alexis
Telly Talk Superhero
It was never really good though after Pam left, and then it just bleed all the cast away until you had the JR and Bobby follies. No Pam, no Donna, no Miss Ellie, no Sue Ellen, no Lucy. All the women had to go and the show lost it's whole centre and focus and turned into something that nobody cared about.
the-lost-son
Telly Talk Well-Known Member
I voted for "It simply outgrew its popularity."
There is one thread I started a few months ago dealing with an aging cast.
First of all - Dallas first ~250 episodes were great, most of them excellent, unrivaled imo and highly enjoyable (till Swan song at least and Pam's exit at the latest).
The core, the bare essence of a family drama is a strong matriarch/patriarch with their offspring fighting for a certain place at the table. The most interesting age of the brothers/daughters is their 30s/early 40s because there are the most milestones in your lifespan (weddings, affairs, divorces, pregnancies).
All family dramas put their focus on this time slot - Succession, Empire...
Dallas was most successful when Bobby/JR were fighting for their spot at the head of the table, their dad's approval. Their marital problems, being competitor to produce an heir... made it so compelling to watch.
After 10 years the show's structure changed. Their sons were not old enough to fight for Ewing Oil/Southfork. The concept only works for a limited time in one's lifespan. The structure of the show changed.
The story had simply been told (and could have only been continued with a time jump.)
There is one thread I started a few months ago dealing with an aging cast.
An aging cast
This thread is not meant to be offensive. Dallas' cast aged really well, but nonetheless during such a long run age is a factor which has its influence if certain storylines work or don't. Lenny Katzman said in the early 90s that the show was produced with the same care like a decade before...
tellytalk.net
First of all - Dallas first ~250 episodes were great, most of them excellent, unrivaled imo and highly enjoyable (till Swan song at least and Pam's exit at the latest).
The core, the bare essence of a family drama is a strong matriarch/patriarch with their offspring fighting for a certain place at the table. The most interesting age of the brothers/daughters is their 30s/early 40s because there are the most milestones in your lifespan (weddings, affairs, divorces, pregnancies).
All family dramas put their focus on this time slot - Succession, Empire...
Dallas was most successful when Bobby/JR were fighting for their spot at the head of the table, their dad's approval. Their marital problems, being competitor to produce an heir... made it so compelling to watch.
After 10 years the show's structure changed. Their sons were not old enough to fight for Ewing Oil/Southfork. The concept only works for a limited time in one's lifespan. The structure of the show changed.
The story had simply been told (and could have only been continued with a time jump.)
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Snarky Oracle!
Telly Talk Supreme
It's pretty much all of the listed reasons above.
The later seasons may not seem quite as vapid today because we've had decades to adjust and downgrade our expectations. Plus, as oldDALLAS is now a relic from a bygone era, there is a natural tendency to minimize its flaws -- especially the flaws from its deterioration years---due to its age. We're sometimes more tolerant of crappity-crap from the semi-distant past; sometimes less so.
Hell, as much as I've bitched and whined about Seasons 3 thru 8 of DYNASTY -- and for damned good reason -- I can sit through those years now without clawing my arms and screaming death threats at my TV. You just accept it now as "old stuff."
The producers make most of the decisions, so the blame has to predominantly fall on them. Leonard Katzman understood, more or less, DALLAS. But he seemed to "need" an obstacle to get around. One like Philip Capice or even Peter Dunne, men who may have been competent in certain ways but didn't quite "get" the DALLAS flavor, or the things that went into it, But once Katzman had taken his throne as undisputed boss, he seemed to fall back on that common power-players' assumption that: as long as I'm in charge, everything is fine.
David Paulsen left a year after Victoria, possibly because he saw the overly-satirical tone that Katzman seemed to be permitting or even endorsing.
And post-WSJR?, Katzman couldn't seem to do DALLAS without Paulsen's sense of almost-Shakespearean seasonal narrative structure. In contrast, Howard Lakin seemed to dive right in to the encroaching silliness,
Suffice it to say that Mis-Ellie, the matriarch's recasting, was the first major crack in the DALLAS veneer. Then there were the producer changes for the season when we thought Bobby was dead. Then Bobby was revived via an ill-conceived dream. And even though her last year there was great, after Pam left, the show seemed to mostly ignore her absence. And then there was the campier tone which crept in.
It was as if the remaining creators were now just trying to "wing it" until the network finally brought down the axe.
The reason the ratings surged to #2 for "Conundrum" was nostalgia -- a wistful nostalgia for a resonant family-centered show that had once meant so much to the audience, and one they'd eventually abandoned because that affection wasn't really reciprocated....... And what's more "family" than that?
The later seasons may not seem quite as vapid today because we've had decades to adjust and downgrade our expectations. Plus, as oldDALLAS is now a relic from a bygone era, there is a natural tendency to minimize its flaws -- especially the flaws from its deterioration years---due to its age. We're sometimes more tolerant of crappity-crap from the semi-distant past; sometimes less so.
Hell, as much as I've bitched and whined about Seasons 3 thru 8 of DYNASTY -- and for damned good reason -- I can sit through those years now without clawing my arms and screaming death threats at my TV. You just accept it now as "old stuff."
The producers make most of the decisions, so the blame has to predominantly fall on them. Leonard Katzman understood, more or less, DALLAS. But he seemed to "need" an obstacle to get around. One like Philip Capice or even Peter Dunne, men who may have been competent in certain ways but didn't quite "get" the DALLAS flavor, or the things that went into it, But once Katzman had taken his throne as undisputed boss, he seemed to fall back on that common power-players' assumption that: as long as I'm in charge, everything is fine.
David Paulsen left a year after Victoria, possibly because he saw the overly-satirical tone that Katzman seemed to be permitting or even endorsing.
And post-WSJR?, Katzman couldn't seem to do DALLAS without Paulsen's sense of almost-Shakespearean seasonal narrative structure. In contrast, Howard Lakin seemed to dive right in to the encroaching silliness,
Suffice it to say that Mis-Ellie, the matriarch's recasting, was the first major crack in the DALLAS veneer. Then there were the producer changes for the season when we thought Bobby was dead. Then Bobby was revived via an ill-conceived dream. And even though her last year there was great, after Pam left, the show seemed to mostly ignore her absence. And then there was the campier tone which crept in.
It was as if the remaining creators were now just trying to "wing it" until the network finally brought down the axe.
The reason the ratings surged to #2 for "Conundrum" was nostalgia -- a wistful nostalgia for a resonant family-centered show that had once meant so much to the audience, and one they'd eventually abandoned because that affection wasn't really reciprocated....... And what's more "family" than that?
Pamela_E
Admin Emerita
Yes true, I'm wondering now if the increase in viewers at the start of season 12 were because Pam was back rather than to watch the outcome of JR being shot again.
Monzo
Telly Talk Star
Season 11 opener was a 2-hour-episode and started at 8pm instead of the usual 9pm timeslot. I suppose some viewers just missed the first hour, because they didn't know Dallas was already on air.
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tommie
Telly Talk Hero
Pretty much - I think it's hard to pin point one exclusive factor to the show starting to tank. Yes, cast members leaving is a huge blow for any show, but if the stories were completely delicious and addictive, would people just stop watching because Pam/Swellin' leaves? On the other hand, all shows have creative slumps (and Dallas wasn't all golden during the first eight seasons) and having a set of characters which the viewers have grown attached to is a good way to keep viewers watching through those slumps.
Pamela_E
Admin Emerita
There have been many extended opening episodes that didn't have that massive jump.
By the end of the season it was down to 19 million for Linda Gray's exit.
Then it just started dropping to 17, then 14 at one point.
Knots Landing also dropped in its final year but kept above 15 million and then just over 19 for its final episode.
tommie
Telly Talk Hero
To be fair, I think it's worth noting that by the third episode of season 12 the show started hitting lows in the Nielsen ratings to 14.3 (season premiere had 17.4 vs season 11's 16.9) and then hit new lows again with episodes 12x18/19 (13.7/13.1) and started hitting the 13.x mark during the last few episodes of the season; Sue Ellen's last episode perked up to 14.1 but the show was pretty much on a slide before Sue Ellen left.
tvtango.com
I think it's worth noting that it's not so much that Bobby coming back meant huge ratings recovery but the show effectively stopped falling to new lows (it hit a new low once in season 10 - 18.3 vs season 9's low of 18.6, which is a pretty negligible difference). The first post-Pam episode hit the low 16.9, then 15.7 a few episodes after, then 14.7 after another few episode etc... so I'd say Pam's leaving had the bigger impact that the show just stopped being stable and kept on hitting lows.
Interestingly, season 11's high was 20.2, which is what the fourth episode of the season (Gone with the Wind) where Pam's bandages are removed (did people tune in to see if it was Victoria Principal or a recast?). Dallas never came close to such a rating again until the series finale. So I think there was definitively a "Pam" factor that lead to unstable ratings.
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I think it's worth noting that it's not so much that Bobby coming back meant huge ratings recovery but the show effectively stopped falling to new lows (it hit a new low once in season 10 - 18.3 vs season 9's low of 18.6, which is a pretty negligible difference). The first post-Pam episode hit the low 16.9, then 15.7 a few episodes after, then 14.7 after another few episode etc... so I'd say Pam's leaving had the bigger impact that the show just stopped being stable and kept on hitting lows.
Interestingly, season 11's high was 20.2, which is what the fourth episode of the season (Gone with the Wind) where Pam's bandages are removed (did people tune in to see if it was Victoria Principal or a recast?). Dallas never came close to such a rating again until the series finale. So I think there was definitively a "Pam" factor that lead to unstable ratings.
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Monzo
Telly Talk Star
The other ones aired from 9-11 pm, so the episode started at the usual 9pm timeslot, some might have missed the fact that Dallas started at 8pm that night.