Why did everyone blame JR for Cliff's suicide attempt?

[Billy Wall]

Of course, J.R. was this vicious because Cliff had almost ruined him financially earlier that season, but Miss Ellie bailed J.R. out by making a deal with Clayton to sell the oil that was stockpiled at the original $33 per barrel. That still cost Ewing Oil something like $10 million, but J.R. would have seen a loss of $30 million plus with the market price of oil falling, would have defaulted on a $200 million loan, plus all the Ewing Oil assets that he put up as collateral, which would have been another $50 million or so lost. J.R. would have cost Ewing Oil something in the region of $280 million! And all because he wanted to get John Ross and Sue Ellen off the Southern Cross Ranch. Losing $10 million from Miss Ellie's deal with Clayton was small change by comparison.

You summed it up. Further proof that JR really wasn't a good businessman.

 

[Mustard]

You summed it up. Further proof that JR really wasn't a good businessman.

Other times he could be, but certainly not on that occasion. A couple of years earlier, he had mortgaged Southfork, could have lost it, but also made the Ewings billionaires when they struck oil in Southeast Asia. I actually felt a bit sorry for him that he wasn't being congratulated after that.

 

[Jimmy Todd]

Other times he could be, but certainly not on that occasion. A couple of years earlier, he had mortgaged Southfork, could have lost it, but also made the Ewings billionaires when they struck oil in Southeast Asia. I actually felt a bit sorry for him that he wasn't being congratulated after that.

The Ewings could be very hypocritical regarding JR's business dealings. They would castigate him for his methods, but none of them refused the money it made them.

 

[Mustard]

The Ewings could be very hypocritical regarding JR's business dealings. They would castigated him for his methods, but none of them refused the money it made them.

And I honestly think that J.R. would have seriously appreciated the thanks at that moment, even if they had previously criticized him for mortgaging Southfork.

 

[Billy Wall]

Other times he could be, but certainly not on that occasion. A couple of years earlier, he had mortgaged Southfork, could have lost it, but also made the Ewings billionaires when they struck oil in Southeast Asia. I actually felt a bit sorry for him that he wasn't being congratulated after that.

Congratulated? He got lucky. Not exactly a smart business deal. JR seemed to only excel in business when he could blackmail someone or he was going up against a far weaker foe.

 

[CeeCee72]

JR constantly let his personal wants and needs get in the way of his business deals... especially where Sue Ellen and John Ross were concerned. Between trying to squeeze the Farlows and setting up Cliff - that reconciliation with Sue Ellen cost him a fortune.

 

[Billy Wall]

JR constantly let his personal wants and needs get in the way of his business deals... especially where Sue Ellen and John Ross were concerned. Between trying to squeeze the Farlows and setting up Cliff - that reconciliation with Sue Ellen cost him a fortune.

If JR didn't have the Ewing money or influence, I get the feeling that he'd be as bad as Cliff in business. Just like Cliff, he sometimes get to personal in business.

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

You summed it up. Further proof that JR really wasn't a good businessman.

I think some context is helpful.
Business leaders do take risks - whether JR took good ones or not can be debatable.
Businessmen will also make decisions for personal rather than logical reasons.
JR was in the oil business, and his adversaries were frequently as ruthless as him
I would guess that Jock Ewing took some risks as well in building Ewing Oil.
Until the Asian wells deal, it appears that JR was doing a good job of making Ewing Oil profitable.
Even Miss Ellie acknowledged as much when chiding him - "JR you run Ewing Oil and you do it well but..."
I always wondered if JR's more risky decisions arose from trying to compensate
for the lack of approval he perceived from his parents
In the end, it is the result that the businessman achieves on which the businessman is evaluated.

Again, you are correct that JR's decisions may not always have been prudent, but
I just wanted to add some other considerations.

 

[Lastkidpicked]

A couple of years earlier, he had mortgaged Southfork, could have lost it, but also made the Ewings billionaires when they struck oil in Southeast Asia. I actually felt a bit sorry for him that he wasn't being congratulated after that.

You could definitely feel sorry for him when he announced the news he finally struck oil in Asia. He practically begged Jock, "Couldn't you be proud of me at least a little bit?"

The Ewings could be very hypocritical regarding JR's business dealings. They would castigate him for his methods, but none of them refused the money it made them.

Yes! While Bobby and others were quick to jump on J.R. for his shady business dealings, they didn't turn away the wealthy lifestyle that Jock and J.R. provided.

Again, you are correct that JR's decisions may not always have been prudent, but
I just wanted to add some other considerations

This points out that in the miniseries, J.R. was a totally different character. Bobby was out pimping for the company and J.R. was back at the office, doing the hard work under Jock's thumb. And nobody seemed to appreciate him.

Larry Hagman used his acting skills to turn J.R. into the villain we came to know, but J.R. started out as a sympathetic character.

 

[Mustard]

Larry Hagman used his acting skills to turn J.R. into the villain we came to know, but J.R. started out as a sympathetic character.

Not in the way that he treated Pam.

 

[Lastkidpicked]

Not in the way that he treated Pam

You're right about that, Mustard. Pam's relationship with the Ewings was doomed from the start.

 

[Billy Wall]

Not in the way that he treated Pam.

And Sue Ellen

 

[Billy Wall]

Larry Hagman used his acting skills to turn J.R. into the villain we came to know, but J.R. started out as a sympathetic character.

I get why JR was the way he was. Bobby even explained it to Pam in the early episode "Bypass." But JR was far from a sympathetic character in the early seasons. The first time we saw JR was of him rubbing on his secretary, Julie Gray.

 

[Lastkidpicked]

I get why JR was the way he was. Bobby even explained it to Pam in the early episode "Bypass." But JR was far from a sympathetic character in the early seasons.

Billy Wall, you and @Mustard make good points. Maybe sympathetic was the wrong word. I meant that during the height of Dallas, J.R. was on top of the world and people loved watching him connive his way into one deal or another. But in the early days, he was worn down and leading a miserable existence.

 

[Taylor Bennett Jr.]

Billy Wall, you and @Mustard make good points. Maybe sympathetic was the wrong word. I meant that during the height of Dallas, J.R. was on top of the world and people loved watching him connive his way into one deal or another. But in the early days, he was worn down and leading a miserable existence.

yep, I think the Julie Grey thigh rub was a pretty conspicuous "this guy's bad" signpost for the viewers, and given that Bobby and Pam were presented off the bat in a positive light as the couple we were supposed to root for, his attempts to break up the marriage in the pilot reinforced that he was an antagonist.

On a rewatch what stood out to me is that he definitely did look miserable and worn down - despite the oft-repeated David Jacobs story about JR grinning at the end of the pilot as Bobby and Pam drove away I don't think he even cracked a smile in the first 4 episodes. "Junior, you were born old!" according to Miss Ellie.

In the Barbecue episode we see him turn on the charm though, getting much closer to his persona of the main series.

 

[Lastkidpicked]

In the Barbecue episode we see him turn on the charm though, getting much closer to his persona of the main series.

And this is what makes watching the mini series enjoyable. Knowing that it's worth sticking around so we can watch Larry Hagman develop J.R. into the man we love to hate.

 

[rkhullar]

I agree in general. Cliff is a grown man and he's responsible for himself despite being set up by JR. But since when is Sue Ellen JR's personal property that he has the right to tell someone to stay away from her?

Rebecca took out her own guilt on JR. She removed him as president and he tried to kill himself. Miss Ellie was somewhat hypocritical, but she had the right to hold a vote to remove JR. Ewing Oil wasn't his personal toy that he could use to seek revenge as he chose.

Here's the deal. I love Cliff barnes's character Ken kercheval is a damn good actor. But think about this now even up to the very end the only way the Cliff Barnes was ever going to get Ewing Oil was help and Jrs greed. If it wasn't for McKay setting Jr up on that WestStar stock and tricking him to selling his half of Ewing oil for what de la Vega paid for the whole thing. There's no way the cliff Barnes would have been full owner of Ewing oil. He had to have that stupid Michelle sell them the other half. And even then he was paying double what de la Vega paid for it. So you see he was no threat to anyone. That's why when Jr and Mack had that meeting 5 years later before Jr took over westar for good that's what he meant when he said Cliff Barnes was no threat to you. Sure enough Jr at his best always beats Cliff Barnes forcing Cliff Barnes to sell Ewing oil to Bobby. Best case scenario Ewing's corner the industry. The worst case Jr will get you Ewing Oil back McKay stays at WestStar either way Jr wins the only way to make sure that McKay was off his guard was to fool everyone into thinking he wanted Ewing Oil when in reality he wanted WestStar. So you see Cliff Barnes never could fight Jr and win

 

[Lastkidpicked]

That's why when Jr and Mack had that meeting 5 years later before Jr took over Westar for good that's what he meant when he said Cliff Barnes was no threat to you.

I really enjoy that exchange between J.R. and Mckay.

J.R. "Why now? Cliff Barnes is no threat to you."
Mckay: "Ewing Oil has some good fields and we have the money to develop them."

It shows that J.R. sees every deal as a way to get back at his enemies. Carter Mckay sees the deal as just a good business case or a bad business case.

 

[Luke_Krebbs_Ewing]

You're right about that, Mustard. Pam's relationship with the Ewings was doomed from the start.

At least she's safe now in Northern Ireland married to Mark Graison, living with myself & Christopher.

She's happy and content these days.

 

[rkhullar]

Cliff was a grown man but didn’t act like it more often than not. He was responsible for his own actions and his suicide attempt was ultimately his decision. His obsession with the Ewings brought on a lot of his problems. Having said that, J.R. was no angel and I can’t say he was exactly free of blame either. Whether he felt justified or not, quite often he took his revenge plots too far so I can understand how Rebecca felt but ultimately Cliff never learned how to stop going back for more.

That's what makes a drama. Look I Love Ken Kercheval he's a damn good actor but at the end we all know he wanted to bring down the Ewings. That man even up to the very end how he got Ewing oilbecause McKay said Jr up on that Western stock when that idiot rodeo rider Dusty farlow sold that westar stock to McKay and trick JR out of viewing well. Meaning that Clif Barnes was never a serious person. That's the reason why when Jr and max out of the table at the Palm restaurant in Dallas and Jr looked at Max face and said Barnes was no threat to you there you go

I think some context is helpful.
Business leaders do take risks - whether JR took good ones or not can be debatable.
Businessmen will also make decisions for personal rather than logical reasons.
JR was in the oil business, and his adversaries were frequently as ruthless as him
I would guess that Jock Ewing took some risks as well in building Ewing Oil.
Until the Asian wells deal, it appears that JR was doing a good job of making Ewing Oil profitable.
Even Miss Ellie acknowledged as much when chiding him - "JR you run Ewing Oil and you do it well but..."
I always wondered if JR's more risky decisions arose from trying to compensate
for the lack of approval he perceived from his parents
In the end, it is the result that the businessman achieves on which the businessman is evaluated.

Again, you are correct that JR's decisions may not always have been prudent, but
I just wanted to add some other considerations.

I think that is well stated but again look its also the stupidity of the other independents. The way the Marinos shipping deal was they were angry they weren't in angry when they were bought out when he finally did lose and took the whole loss they are bitching even then. It shows how dumb the cartel was to take JR at word and after the Asian oil wells the Variance where JR was pumping too much and so on that they would have learned their lesson. See when people are greedy and stupid that's when you can hit them. That's exactly what Mckay did to JR at the end on that Weststar stock and tricking him into selling Ewing Oil to Cliff Barnes at the end.