Why did everyone blame JR for Cliff's suicide attempt?

[rkhullar]

You summed it up. Further proof that JR really wasn't a good businessman.

But that's still dubious because who is to say Farlow was so great. Did he not think that that messing with the Ewings wasn't going to be costly. Again Farlow was told by Miss Ellie I would have gone down another dollar so he actually paid more than he would have of course he liked Miss Ellie so he laughed it off so its not as if everyone else is that much better. Understand that particular thing wasn' t about money it was about power. Even Bobby realized that JR's reasoning for doing it wasn't illogical given the circumstances. After Cliff Barnes suicided and Bobby sick of JR taking advantage of Christopher who was found to be not Jr's son but Faraday's that is when Bobby voted back his 20 shares. Remember Ray Crebbs gave his 10 shares away when Jock died.

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

That's what makes a drama. Look I Love Ken Kercheval he's a damn good actor but at the end we all know he wanted to bring down the Ewings. That man even up to the very end how he got Ewing oilbecause McKay said Jr up on that Western stock when that idiot rodeo rider Dusty farlow sold that westar stock to McKay and trick JR out of viewing well. Meaning that Clif Barnes was never a serious person. That's the reason why when Jr and max out of the table at the Palm restaurant in Dallas and Jr looked at Max face and said Barnes was no threat to you there you go

I think that is well stated but again look its also the stupidity of the other independents. The way the Marinos shipping deal was they were angry they weren't in angry when they were bought out when he finally did lose and took the whole loss they are bitching even then. It shows how dumb the cartel was to take JR at word and after the Asian oil wells the Variance where JR was pumping too much and so on that they would have learned their lesson. See when people are greedy and stupid that's when you can hit them. That's exactly what Mckay did to JR at the end on that Weststar stock and tricking him into selling Ewing Oil to Cliff Barnes at the end.

Good post, good observations!

I would add that two things could be true at once. JR could be trying to ruin Cliff Barnes on a personal level with a business deal, but he could also be stregnething
Ewing Oil by weakening a rival, especially when that rival will also attempt to weaken Ewing oil for personal and/or business reasons.
Didn't Jock and JR use Ewing oi resources to oppose Cliff's political campaigns? While it may have been personal, and even unethical for the Ewings to do so,
it was also being done to defeat a rival who would be opposed to Ewing Oil on a personal level.

These decisions could have several levels to them. It is fun to speculate about the possibilities

 

[Billy Wall]

Didn't Jock and JR use Ewing oi resources to oppose Cliff's political campaigns? While it may have been personal, and even unethical for the Ewings to do so,
it was also being done to defeat a rival who would be opposed to Ewing Oil on a personal level.

These decisions could have several levels to them. It is fun to speculate about the possibilities

I think that was a little different from JR setting Cliff up that led to his suicide attempt. Jock and JR knew Cliff would use his political position to attack Ewing Oil at all cost. So I can see why they used all their resources to prevent Cliff from gaining too much power.

 

[Lastkidpicked]

I can see why they used all their resources to prevent Cliff from gaining too much power.

It is an interesting relationship between J.R. and Cliff. J.R. is fully aware that Cliff is ambitious enough to start from nothing and come a long way in life. J.R. is also fully aware that Cliff is smart enough to put himself through law school.

There are a few times J.R. admits that if Cliff ever had power or money then Cliff could be a serious threat. We saw this when Rebecca Wentworth showed up and we found out that Cliff's mother had serious money. And an oil services company she would give to Cliff.

 

[Mustard]

Pam said what Cliff's weakness was, i.e. he would get an idea into his head and get carried with it, usually a scheme aimed at rubbing J.R's nose in it, which would nearly always backfire. J.R. would exploit that.

 

[Taylor Bennett Jr.]

It is an interesting relationship between J.R. and Cliff. J.R. is fully aware that Cliff is ambitious enough to start from nothing and come a long way in life. J.R. is also fully aware that Cliff is smart enough to put himself through law school.

There are a few times J.R. admits that if Cliff ever had power or money then Cliff could be a serious threat. We saw this when Rebecca Wentworth showed up and we found out that Cliff's mother had serious money. And an oil services company she would give to Cliff.

unfortunately it seemed once he had the wealth, to keep him as the underdog the writers had to drop his intelligence to the point where any successes he had were due to outright dumb luck and/or an idea or action of Afton, Jamie, etc.

 

[Lastkidpicked]

Unfortunately it seemed once he had the wealth, to keep him as the underdog the writers had to drop his intelligence to the point where any successes he had were due to outright dumb luck and/or an idea or action of Afton, Jamie, etc.

They didn't just do this with Cliff. During the season when Mark was pursuing Pam, she was shown to be helpless and Mark had to send "guardian angels" to keep an eye on her.
It seems the writers forgot the Pam of the early seasons. She was certainly no damsel in distress who needed rescuing.

 

[rkhullar]

Good post, good observations!

I would add that two things could be true at once. JR could be trying to ruin Cliff Barnes on a personal level with a business deal, but he could also be stregnething
Ewing Oil by weakening a rival, especially when that rival will also attempt to weaken Ewing oil for personal and/or business reasons.
Didn't Jock and JR use Ewing oi resources to oppose Cliff's political campaigns? While it may have been personal, and even unethical for the Ewings to do so,
it was also being done to defeat a rival who would be opposed to Ewing Oil on a personal level.

These decisions could have several levels to them. It is fun to speculate about the possibilities

Sorry for the grammar there we typed fast. But yea look everything you are saying is true. Jock was the kind of guy that basically was ok with how Bobby did things and how JR did things. On the issue of Cliff Barnes he let Bobby do his thing but Jr Was doing his whichever way worked faster Jock was ok with. But see even Jock though had limits. The funny thing is in a way Jock himself knew that this really was his fault in a way. If you remember a scene when Bobby told Miss Ellie and Jock about the Asian Oil Wells and how JR bet Southfork. I remember Jock saying to Bobby when JR wasn't there. JR was in the fields when I needed him and I taught him his head and drive for big business but I never taught him when to stop. I think that is something that we must not overlook. To me its the real basis for explanation on a lot of the business decisions JR Made through the years and I think a lot of the reason why BD calhoun was around why JR was tricked into selling Ewing Oil forgetting that Dusty Farlow owned the stock. You see I think even from his death Jock knew it was him and he knew also which is why JR faked his death that JR was going to be broke before he died just by the fact that he was never taught when to stop. I think that's why I don't really criticize JR completely.

 

[Billy Wall]

Sorry for the grammar there we typed fast. But yea look everything you are saying is true. Jock was the kind of guy that basically was ok with how Bobby did things and how JR did things. On the issue of Cliff Barnes he let Bobby do his thing but Jr Was doing his whichever way worked faster Jock was ok with. But see even Jock though had limits. The funny thing is in a way Jock himself knew that this really was his fault in a way. If you remember a scene when Bobby told Miss Ellie and Jock about the Asian Oil Wells and how JR bet Southfork. I remember Jock saying to Bobby when JR wasn't there. JR was in the fields when I needed him and I taught him his head and drive for big business but I never taught him when to stop. I think that is something that we must not overlook. To me its the real basis for explanation on a lot of the business decisions JR Made through the years and I think a lot of the reason why BD calhoun was around why JR was tricked into selling Ewing Oil forgetting that Dusty Farlow owned the stock. You see I think even from his death Jock knew it was him and he knew also which is why JR faked his death that JR was going to be broke before he died just by the fact that he was never taught when to stop. I think that's why I don't really criticize JR completely.

I see Jock as being a little hypocritical when it came to JR. He had no problem with how JR did things, but was quick to act as if he didn't quite approve of his methods after the damage has been done. A few scenes that stick out is when Miss Ellie's brother Garrison came back and of course, Jock and JR are suspicious of him, Jock pulls JR aside and said "we'll take care of it." I believe JR said "whatever." Then when Cliff was running for senate. JR tells Jock "if there's not a body in his closet, we'll put it there." Jock said "whatever."

So in other words, Jock saying that he never taught JR when to stop is kinda laughable. He stood right beside JR during a lot of his scheme and approved a lot of them.

 

[rkhullar]

I see Jock as being a little hypocritical when it came to JR. He had no problem with how JR did things, but was quick to act as if he didn't quite approve of his methods after the damage has been done. A few scenes that stick out is when Miss Ellie's brother Garrison came back and of course, Jock and JR are suspicious of him, Jock pulls JR aside and said "we'll take care of it." I believe JR said "whatever." Then when Cliff was running for senate. JR tells Jock "if there's not a body in his closet, we'll put it there." Jock said "whatever."

So in other words, Jock saying that he never taught JR when to stop is kinda laughable. He stood right beside JR during a lot of his scheme and approved a lot of them.

Yeah I could see that but what in those instances that you are referring to Ewing oil wasn't at risk. I think what you are not seeing is that what Jock was talking about was actual risky business decisions that could cost the company. On that end he didn't teach JR when to stop. Because even after Jock was long gone. The Clayton Farlow situation the variances of producing more Oil m the fight for Ewing Oil seling to Cuba (BTW there are ways that could have been done legally) all that and then of course BD Calhoun and also the Asian Oil Well situation Jock would never have signed on to those things. The Clayton Farlow situation he might have for John Ross but even that would have been limited. Tricking Cliff Barnes into resigning the OLM that's small potatoes compared to those things I mentioned. So yeah the schemes that JR had after Jock died or when Jock was not in the picture or when Jock was in the picture but not active were much more dangerous. But on stuff that didn't risk Ewing Oil like messing with Barnes sure Jock was ok with that.

 

[Billy Wall]

Yeah I could see that but what in those instances that you are referring to Ewing oil wasn't at risk. I think what you are not seeing is that what Jock was talking about was actual risky business decisions that could cost the company. On that end he didn't teach JR when to stop. Because even after Jock was long gone. The Clayton Farlow situation the variances of producing more Oil m the fight for Ewing Oil seling to Cuba (BTW there are ways that could have been done legally) all that and then of course BD Calhoun and also the Asian Oil Well situation Jock would never have signed on to those things. The Clayton Farlow situation he might have for John Ross but even that would have been limited. Tricking Cliff Barnes into resigning the OLM that's small potatoes compared to those things I mentioned. So yeah the schemes that JR had after Jock died or when Jock was not in the picture or when Jock was in the picture but not active were much more dangerous. But on stuff that didn't risk Ewing Oil like messing with Barnes sure Jock was ok with that.

Let's not forget that Jock once had a man put into a mental asylum under false pretenses to get his land. JR was a lot of things, but I tend to believe him when he once told Miss Ellie "you don't know half the things daddy did." He even once told Bobby that he has a distorted view of Daddy. And we know how much JR revered Jock.

Jock might not have mortgaged Southfork and put the family at risk, but he'd do just about anything else for the benefit of Ewing Oil.

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

They didn't just do this with Cliff. During the season when Mark was pursuing Pam, she was shown to be helpless and Mark had to send "guardian angels" to keep an eye on her.
It seems the writers forgot the Pam of the early seasons. She was certainly no damsel in distress who needed rescuing.

Agree to a point. It seemed that the Battle for Ewing Oil began the weaking of Pam's character.
After an an argument with JR about Jock's will, she said something to Bobby like 'That was a wonderful defense of your wife" when Bobby was silent.
If Pam was so strong, why would she say that? The writers began to weaken her.