Would You Take Back The Later Years?

Kenny Coyote

Telly Talk Star
I watched every season as it aired, so that I didn't quit watching tells me I still found it worthwhile. I'm glad they didn't go on for another season in the fall of 1992. I wouldn't have watched any more of it after the disappointment of season 14. I couldn't have watched it the next year anyway because I was so busy at that particular time I literally didn't bother to own a TV. I wouldn't have minded much if they had cut it one season shorter. The oil tanker collision storyline, the same way they did it, would have made a more fitting end to the show than what they went with. Handing Oil Ewing from one person to the next to the next in a year kind of made a mockery of it.
 

Swami

Telly Talk Supreme
I watched every season as it aired, so that I didn't quit watching tells me I still found it worthwhile. I'm glad they didn't go on for another season in the fall of 1992. I wouldn't have watched any more of it after the disappointment of season 14. I couldn't have watched it the next year anyway because I was so busy at that particular time I literally didn't bother to own a TV. I wouldn't have minded much if they had cut it one season shorter. The oil tanker collision storyline, the same way they did it, would have made a more fitting end to the show than what they went with. Handing Oil Ewing from one person to the next to the next in a year kind of made a mockery of it.

Yes, especially having the likes of the awful Michelle Stevens owning it, a complete joke.

Swami
 

Luke_Krebbs_Ewing

Telly Talk Champion
Yes, especially having the likes of the awful Michelle Stevens owning it, a complete joke.

Swami

Yeah, Michelle Stevens was just an airhead.

The only reason she bought it off Leann De La Vega was she hoped James would stay with her & that he could maybe run it alongside her.

Michelle didn't know anything about the oil business, she probably thought it was the same oil you get in cans of John West tuna!! :D
 

Michelle Stevens

'The Lovely Michelle'
Yeah, Michelle Stevens was just an airhead.

The only reason she bought it off Leann De La Vega was she hoped James would stay with her & that he could maybe run it alongside her.

Michelle didn't know anything about the oil business, she probably thought it was the same oil you get in cans of John West tuna!! :D

Pfft!

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An airhead that purportedly was able to get Cliff (while she was drunk) to pay her the total of what she paid for Ewing Oil for his 50% and later selling her remaining 50% to JR for her full purchase price as well. Her initial motives may have been short sighted with James but I don't recall her making any errors in running Ewing Oil.
 

Luke_Krebbs_Ewing

Telly Talk Champion
Pfft!

6WxfrjA.gif


An airhead that purportedly was able to get Cliff (while she was drunk) to pay her the total of what she paid for Ewing Oil for his 50% and later selling her remaining 50% to JR for her full purchase price as well. Her initial motives may have been short sighted with James but I don't recall her making any errors in running Ewing Oil.

Oh gawd, I'm in trouble now! Sorry.

I was just going by what my cousin Christopher would say about you.

I'm his cousin Luke Krebbs Ewing, maybe you're heard of me.

I gotta go, my step Mother Pam, her husband Mark Graison & Chris & I are going to visit a dear old friend.

We call him Wes for a joke but he's really my GrandFather.

Jock Ewing2d.jpg
 
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Jabari Lamar

Telly Talk Fan
If we'd have the power to take back the later years then we'd have the power to fix them.

Yeah, if we're playing impossible hypotheticals, rather than ending the show several years earlier I would prefer to fix those later seasons and come up with a better ending.

A great concept and one I would have traveled with especially if it involved JR. His absolute approach to having it all inevitably drove his loved ones away - one by one. In the end whether he had obtained both Southfork and Ewing Oil or lost both it would have justified the ending in The Decline and the Fall of the Ewing Empire.

Yes, once on a previous board we were asked how we would have ended the show instead of "Conundrum." I said if I could have gone back and knew in advance that the show was definitely going to be cancelled that season, I would have just reworked the last couple of episodes, ending with J.R. both winning and losing. Still keep the parts with James and Jimmy leaving and John Ross deciding to stay with his mother in London, telling his father he hates them. I'd bring Pam back, even if it's that other actress, have her explain why she stayed away, because she thought she was going to die. But now her disease is in remission. Her and Bobby reconcile to make the most of whatever time they have left, so they take Christopher and they move away somewhere, to get away from Dallas and all the drama, and Bobby hands over ownership of Southfork to J.R.. Subsequently, seeing Pam back gives Cliff a change of heart, he gives up his feud with J.R., gives him his half of Ewing Oil and seeks out Afton and they reconcile to raise their daughter together. So J.R. returns to Southfork triumphant, he owns the ranch and the company, just like he always wanted. But then when he sits down at the head of the dinner table, with a big smile on his face, he slowly looks around at all the empty seats. And without saying a word, his smile fades as a a look of revelation and sadness washes over J.R.'s face (I can picture Larry pulling this off perfectly), as it finally hits him that all of this "power" he's been fighting for his whole life is ultimately meaningless if he's alone. He's Citizen Kane, all the money and power in the world, but no one to share it with. And the camera would just slowly pull back to show him in this big empty house and then fade to black. The End.

And that still leaves room for a "J.R. Returns" reunion movie 5 years later, with J.R. coming up with a plan to reunite the family and get everyone to move back to Southfork with him.

I have to say no. I'm rewatching the show now and the decline in quality is evident just in how binge worthy the episodes are in comparison to earlier seasons, that being said though, the later years do have their moments and aren't as terrible as I remember them being. Some characters were absolutely pointless in the later years (looking at you Clayton and Miss Ellie) but others are sort of enjoyable in a way that's different to why you liked characters in the first half of the series (I'm liking Cally and April a lot but in different ways to the way I liked Sue Ellen and Pam).

We got what we got, I think the problem is the writing got lazy. I don't know if Larry and Patrick had too much control over what their characters were like or whether there was something weird going in the background, but the sharpness of the psychology of the characters was dulled later on.

Yes, this is how I feel about the later seasons. I've said here before It's not that all, or even most, of the stories were bad, it's just that they were badly executed. As I just meantioned in another thread, the whole Haleyville storyline itself was fine, what dropped it is the lack of resolution, that J.R. didn't seek revenge. But even the later marriage to Cally, not a bad idea. In real life plenty of rich older men end up marrying much younger women. The idea of J.R. having some long lost love who gave birth to his now-adult secret son is also fine, and the "secret heir" plot is a staple of soap operas, it's just that the actors cast to play Vanessa and James were wrong for the roles. And who didn't want to see Larry Hagman and Barbara Eden on screen together again? The idea of bringing her in as a vengeful ex of J.R.'s was also a potentially good one, they just ruined the story with a lack of logic. Likewise bringing in Erika Kane herself, Susan Lucci at the height of her popularity, was also a great move, just again hindered by a lackluster storyline.

On the topic of self contained episodes, I think I'd dislike it more if they'd done that. I didn't like the style of self contained episodes at the start of the series and the show really gains something special when it becomes an ongoing, developing plot.

I remember reading about the rumor at the time and not looking forward to it either. Dallas was after all a soap opera, it was no longer the "family drama" that was in the earliest seasons. Soap operas continue from one episode to the next.
 
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Snarky Oracle!

Telly Talk Supreme
A lot of the problem with the later seasons is tonal, and some details.

Aside from the obvious, mid-series issues (don't recast Miss Ellie, and either don't use the dream scenario to revive Bobby -- or else making it Bobby's dream), I'd like JR to find out it was his truck (doing illegal oil business in the badlands after the feds smacked him down) that Pam crashed into, leaving JR the first two thirds of the 87/88 Season running around trying to obscure the fact from the government and to prevent yet another dunking in the Southfork pool. And then the final third of the season with Bobby also trying to hide JR's activities from the feds in order to protect the family and what's left of the company -- that's classic DALLAS irony.

During the 88/89 season: Miss Ellie resists bringing in the authorities during the range war -- is something buried out there under Section 40 other than just oil that she wants kept secret -- and did Parmalee refer to it when he made his exit a while back? ... When Miss Ellie suggests taking Cliff into Ewing Oil, somebody should at least hesitate at the gravity of the concept before saying, "Sure, Mama." ... Most people disapprove of Sue Ellen's movie, but I'd be okay with it if the show's frivolous tone weren't what it was by this point. JR's time on the chain gang should have felt more epic and probably filmed in some west Texas national park, with Clayton later observing how improbable it was that an oil multi-millionaire might wind up in that situation.. Jeremy Wendell's all-too-easy arrest either not happen or later be undone. Keep Afton around.

89/90 season: I'm fine with Jeanne O'Brien's doppelganger plotline, but would like a better resolution for it -- and "better" could mean more nebulous, like the Wes Parmalee ambiguity. I picture Bobby and Cliff gradually coming to suspect Wendell had some role in Pam's disappearance from the hospital after her 1987 crash, even if they're unable to determine a concrete motive for the possible kidnapping. (Katherine is still dead). Before the end of DALLAS, they can come to suspect Pam may be dead, and that neurofibromatosis was the culprit -- turns out she was Digger's daughter after all! I want Lady Jessica's redux killing spree done straight -- and darker -- with the remaining Dallas cartel as the victims... (When they were talking about a big screen movie version of DALLAS about 20 years ago, David Jacobs said something about Miss Ellie having her own local talk show --- and that would be a fun development for this season: early in the year, Miss Ellie is pressured by JR into joining him in an appearance on The Roy Ralston Show in the wake of the tanker oil spill disaster. She's such a hit after several appearances that she's offered the show by the local station when Ralston finally goes national. JR thinks this is a great idea for public relations purposes --- until Miss Ellie, between the celeb interviews and the humorous antecdotes and the kitchen recipes, begins peppering her show with liberal politics, including oil politics, leaving JR and what's left of the cartel appalled, and her eldest son desperate to pull the plug on the broadcast, his efforts risking her life inadvertently).

90/91 season: too shlocky for my tastes, hard to know what to salvage or adjust... I'd rather have April as yet-another stalker for Bobby, not his wife --- and still kill her in Paris, blood bags or not... As Cliff goes chasing after Michelle's piece of Ewing Oil, a neglected Afton winds up turning to Bobby (which infuriates Cliff naturally). Sue Ellen shows up at year's end flushed with fresh cash from her producing career and has managed to put together a consortium with which to buy up a weakened Ewing Oil and placing it back in the hands of the family, she makes the announcement to the Ewings and then places Cliff Barnes in as CEO, infuriating JR... At a season-ending barbecue, Sue Ellen sits outside at night in front of the house, JR approaches her and asks her if she's coming inside, and she looks up dismissively and says, "Maybe.." in a direct replay of the final scene of the first "Barbecue" episode 13 years earlier; JR glumly starts to walk back to the house, freeze frame to the same John Parker score which had closed the original 1978 mini-series.

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Lastkidpicked

Telly Talk Dream Maker
The problem with the later years is that the show lost it's "grit" as it tried to become more glamorous.

Look at these two pictures:

340


This is when the show had grit. Even though Digger and Jock are all dressed up for the wedding, you can tell that both of them got down and dirty either working or drinking during the week. Grit.

Now, look at the scene from the later years. Grit turns into fake. As @Rove would say, you can almost see the seam in the background sky.

dal-list-the-original-dallass-8-southfork-weddings-ranked-5.jpg


I think the insulting thing is that they didn't even TRY. The fake flowers, the fake painted background. It's something that you couldn't get away with in a high school play.
 
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Taylor Bennett Jr.

Telly Talk Winner
The problem with the later years is that the show lost it's "grit" as it tried to become more glamorous.

Look at these two pictures:

340


This is when the show had grit. Even though Digger and Jock are all dressed up for the wedding, you can tell that both of them got down and dirty either working or drinking during the week. Grit.

Now, look at the scene from the later years. Grit turns into fake. As @Rove would say, you can almost see the seam in the background sky.

dal-list-the-original-dallass-8-southfork-weddings-ranked-5.jpg


I think the insulting thing is that they didn't even TRY. The fake flowers, the fake painted background. It's something that you couldn't get away with in a high school play.

It's like they started with grit, became wildly successful, and as the budgets multiplied and Dynasty started to become a threat, we had Sue Ellen wearing bejeweled turbans and shoulderpads wider than Texas Stadium for simple Southfork dinners, not to mention Angelica Nero and her Eurovision song contest troupe, as Swami would say. Then, as the ratings declined, we ended up with just 'cheap', as shown above.
 

Kenny Coyote

Telly Talk Star
It's like they started with grit, became wildly successful, and as the budgets multiplied and Dynasty started to become a threat, we had Sue Ellen wearing bejeweled turbans and shoulderpads wider than Texas Stadium for simple Southfork dinners, not to mention Angelica Nero and her Eurovision song contest troupe, as Swami would say. Then, as the ratings declined, we ended up with just 'cheap', as shown above.

That's such a bad mistake: "Dynasty is becoming a threat so let's copy their style"

Dallas was not going to outdo Dynasty at whatever it was they did, just like Dynasty would never be more gritty than Dallas. Stay with what made you successful. Make them want to try to outdo you at what you do best. Dallas had its biggest success with season 4 - a 27.6 rating with Jock Ewing era, gritty Dallas. That was what they did best.
 

Luke_Krebbs_Ewing

Telly Talk Champion
The later years of Dallas were similar to the mistakes the Cyntax continuation made decades later.

There were too many extraneous new characters coming in for a start.

The stories just weren't compelling any more & some of them were frankly ludicrous like that Mummy Pam storyline.

Letting go of some of the core cast didn't help either. Victoria Principal left on her own, it was her decision.

Susan Howard however was just let go, as was Steve Kanaly & Linda Gray a few season's later.

Barbara Bel Geddes rejected a four episode deal to appear in the final season, that was insulting, I'm sure she told Lorimar to stick it!! They must've made a similar deal to Howard Keel as he only had a few sporadic appearances before leaving the show.

This was when Dallas morphed from being a hit drama series with an ensemble cast into the Larry Hagman & Patrick Duffy show & by then the viewers had well and truly deserted the show. It was sad watching how the show gradually got tired & complacent. Lorimar maybe should've replaced Leonard Katzman with another show runner. Bringing back Philip Capice might have helped get the struggling show back on top. Sadly it wasn't to be though. :(
 

pete lashmar

Telly Talk Addict
The later years of Dallas were similar to the mistakes the Cyntax continuation made decades later.

There were too many extraneous new characters coming in for a start.

The stories just weren't compelling any more & some of them were frankly ludicrous like that Mummy Pam storyline.

Letting go of some of the core cast didn't help either. Victoria Principal left on her own, it was her decision.

Susan Howard however was just let go, as was Steve Kanaly & Linda Gray a few season's later.

Barbara Bel Geddes rejected a four episode deal to appear in the final season, that was insulting, I'm sure she told Lorimar to stick it!! They must've made a similar deal to Howard Keel as he only had a few sporadic appearances before leaving the show.

This was when Dallas morphed from being a hit drama series with an ensemble cast into the Larry Hagman & Patrick Duffy show & by then the viewers had well and truly deserted the show. It was sad watching how the show gradually got tired & complacent. Lorimar maybe should've replaced Leonard Katzman with another show runner. Bringing back Philip Capice might have helped get the struggling show back on top. Sadly it wasn't to be though. :(


I couldn't agree more - the competition to become No.1 soap destroyed them all because they just became bigger, louder and cheaper.

I've literally just just Swan Song and gone straight into Return to Camelot, I really don't count the "dream" season as worth the watch anymore, I want to watch the continued story and plots from the previous season. (which is still a body blow because Larry looks SO much older when you skip the dream season).

For me personally after Pam's exit in Fall of the House of Ewing, they should have ended the series as they started - a 5 part mini series to wind everything up and give us one last hurrah.

Yes there were a couple of good plots after this, but overall the show was a shadow of it's former self. It would have still come back for TV movies etc, but the show had outlived it's success and should have ended before the mess it became.
 

Kenny Coyote

Telly Talk Star
I couldn't agree more - the competition to become No.1 soap destroyed them all because they just became bigger, louder and cheaper.

I've literally just just Swan Song and gone straight into Return to Camelot, I really don't count the "dream" season as worth the watch anymore, I want to watch the continued story and plots from the previous season. (which is still a body blow because Larry looks SO much older when you skip the dream season).

For me personally after Pam's exit in Fall of the House of Ewing, they should have ended the series as they started - a 5 part mini series to wind everything up and give us one last hurrah.

Yes there were a couple of good plots after this, but overall the show was a shadow of it's former self. It would have still come back for TV movies etc, but the show had outlived it's success and should have ended before the mess it became.

I agree. They became bigger and prettier and glossier but lost what the show was built upon, the guts of it, that deeper, closer, more intense feeling of the earlier years.
 

Luke_Krebbs_Ewing

Telly Talk Champion
I agree. They became bigger and prettier and glossier but lost what the show was built upon, the guts of it, that deeper, closer, more intense feeling of the earlier years.

Once they lost Victoria Principal & to a lesser extent Jim Davis they had to steer Dallas in another direction.

If Ken Kercheval had left Dallas really would've been in serious trouble, as it was the characters of Pam, Cliff & to a lesser extent Jock which kept the show anchored.

Dallas found it's footing after Jim's death as the battle for Ewing Oil in season five was very compelling to watch, however the show wasn't the same after his death. I don't think the character of Clayton was a good replacement for Jock, he could be too nice. Jock was much more of a wildcard just like his son JR. Whilst Dallas recovered well from the loss of Jim Davis, his loss did impact the family dynamic on the show. They were never going to get that back. Jim was a fine actor, a shame we lost him so soon into the show's run. :(
 

Kenny Coyote

Telly Talk Star
Dallas found it's footing after Jim's death as the battle for Ewing Oil in season five was very compelling to watch, however the show wasn't the same after his death. I don't think the character of Clayton was a good replacement for Jock, he could be too nice. Jock was much more of a wildcard just like his son JR.

Dallas suffered its biggest loss in the size of its audience from one season to the next directly after losing Jim Davis. Their second biggest loss was after losing Victoria Principal. They dropped 4.2 ratings points after losing Jim Davis and 3.4 after losing Victoria Principal.

If Ken Kercheval had left Dallas really would've been in serious trouble, as it was the characters of Pam, Cliff & to a lesser extent Jock which kept the show anchored.

That would have been a big loss as well. Since Cliff instigated most of the attacks on the Ewings, the best way to handle that would have been to promote William Smithers to the main cast and had Jeremy Wendell become the primary adversary to the Ewings. Wendell was an underutilized character. Whenever they did use him, he was great.
 
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