“Hangin’ on a hope”... the Carpenters thread

Mel O'Drama

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Karen and Richard's songs have been something of a constant thread in my life's soundtrack since I first discovered music. Along with ABBA and Barry Manilow, Carpenters are one of a handful of "heritage" acts handed down to me through my parents' musical tastes in the Seventies and Eighties. They liked many other artists but, for whatever reason, it's the more safe MOR acts - "white bread" as Karen occasionally described their image - that stuck with me.

It goes without saying (almost) that Karen's voice is a huge part of the Carps' appeal. It almost makes one shudder to wonder what would have happened had Karen - her first love being drumming - not ended up taking lead almost by accident.

Richard's arrangements, too, have contributed hugely to the music's immortality. All those rich layers of harmonies and instrumentation creating a heavenly, immersive kind of ear candy that's best appreciated with a pair of good headphones. It's a manufactured - almost formulaic - kind of sound, but in the best way possible. He knows exactly where Karen's voice needs to be and tailors the music to that, creating a sound that's entirely their own.

But it's Richard and Karen as people that gives the music its heart and emotion. There's a lot of contradictory stuff going on. Karen's rich and mature voice creates the impression of someone worldly and serious, but watching her in interviews, seeing photos or hearing outtakes, it's clear that she's witty and with a sense of fun. There are so many photos of her pulling faces, and she does the same in interviews. I love that outtake at the end of Let Me Be The One where Karen can be heard just goofing around.


But there's also the flip side of that. Two talented young siblings who embrace their wholesome, clean cut, all-American "white bread" image to the extent that it precludes any acknowledgement or discussion of painful ghosts. In turn creating a perfect storm where the only outlet - the only place to take it - is the music itself.

This in turn creates art, because each piece of music becomes an avatar for Richard and Karen themselves: accessible, endearing and beautiful; the result of much hard work and a striving for perfection; cheerful and joyous. All with an unspoken-yet-tangible pain that touches something raw and dark within artists and listener both.

This atmosphere can be found in many covers or tracks written by other writers, from Ticket To Ride to I Can Dream, Can't I? (a truly underrated Carpenters song) to Superstar to Where Do I Go From Here? But it occurs to me that many of the songs which seem to really expose that pain are those co-written by Richard. Just as the angst can be heard in Karen's voice, so is it present in the lyrics. With the benefit of hindsight, is there a more poignant and truthful line than Only Yesterday's "In my own time nobody knew the pain I was going through"?

While Goodbye To Love might be the most obvious choice for Richard and Karen's masterpiece of writing/vocal collaboration, it struck me just this week that I Need To Be In Love might be THE Carpenters song. It's the one in which both seem most exposed, open and even self-aware. It's almost a stream of consciousness about a belief system or ethos that doesn't work. The lyric "I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world; and fool enough to think that's what I'll find" is so wonderfully contradictory. The very idea of seeking perfection while knowing it's futile manages to be simultaneously hopeful and hopeless. There's a cry for help from someone who is isolated and terribly alone ("wide awake at 4am without a friend in sight"), but one that's immediately followed by a WASP-ish form of denial from arm's length that keeps others from truly reaching them: "I'm hangin' on a hope, but I'm all right".

The truth of this can only be told in the reading given by Karen, and there's one performance in particular of this track that's painful to watch because of how much investment Karen seems to have in the lyrics.

For whatever reason, I Need To Be In Love isn't a song that I'd considered top-tier Carps until revisiting it this week and having a proper listen with headphones. Which goes to show that there's always new gold to be mined from their material, no matter how familiar it may appear to be.

iu
 

James from London

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Great stuff, Mel!

Karen and Richard's songs have been something of a constant thread in my life's soundtrack since I first discovered music. Along with ABBA and Barry Manilow, Carpenters are one of a handful of "heritage" acts handed down to me through my parents' musical tastes in the Seventies and Eighties.
I had the same experience, but with me it was my brother who was the big Carps fan. He loved/loves his easy listening.
For whatever reason, I Need To Be In Love isn't a song that I'd considered top-tier Carps until revisiting it this week and having a proper listen with headphones. Which goes to show that there's always new gold to be mined from their material, no matter how familiar it may appear to be.
I had a similar experience after reading this recent list of the Carpenters' best in the Guardian.

It dispenses with some of the well-known treacly stuff (all of which is fine) in favour of some lesser-known album tracks which I've heard all my life - for so long, in fact, that it never previously occurred to me how unusual they are. In particular, 'Another Song' ...


"Plenty of early-70s albums ended with a free-form jam, but of all the exponents of said form, the Carpenters were the most improbable: Another Song unexpectedly and rather thrillingly unravels into psychedelic guitar and occasionally atonal electric piano improv, underpinned by frantic drums. They never recorded anything like it again."


... and 'All I Can Do':


"You can hear the Carpenters’ jazz roots on All I Can Do, a song unlike anything else they recorded: layers of Swingle Singers-ish harmonies and an electric piano solo over a 5/4 rhythm, powered by Karen’s hyperactive drumming. Incredibly, it sounds remarkably like late-90s Stereolab."

There's a lot of contradictory stuff going on.

Speaking of contradictory stuff, I discovered only recently that the man behind that heartrending fuzzy guitar solo on 'Goodbye to Love', Tony Peluso, also provided the wacky DJ voice on Side 2 of Now and Then and 'Calling Occupants'. ("I'm sorry babe, that's not on our playlist!")

Oh, and my trawl through Stereogum's great 'America's Number Ones' blog has only just passed the Carpenters final US chart topper:

 

Mel O'Drama

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I had the same experience, but with me it was my brother who was the big Carps fan. He loved/loves his easy listening.

Oh, wonderful. It seems your brother was much more thorough in his enjoyment than my parents. To date I've been pretty much a Greatest Hits kind of fan when it comes to the Carps. I've never got round to buying and exploring their studio albums (even though I've had my eyes on those Japanese SHM-CDs for years).


I had a similar experience after reading this recent list of the Carpenters' best in the Guardian.

It dispenses with some of the well-known treacly stuff (all of which is fine) in favour of some lesser-known album tracks which I've heard all my life -

That's a brilliant read.

I especially enjoyed the loathing for "the gruesome children's choir assisted" Sing. I must confess I have a soft spot for it - in fact it's one of my most-played Carps songs. But I can understand the reasoning and it's always fun to see this kind of response to any song.

Of the songs on the list, Road Ode and Aurora/Eventide were new to me. I've had a listen to both and really like them.


it never previously occurred to me how unusual they are. In particular, 'Another Song' ...

I love the way the sound seems to capture two different decades, making it kind of retro and (for its time) futuristic.


... and 'All I Can Do':

Very nice. And very evocative.

It's kind of Pearl & Dean meets Mr Rossi.




Oh, and my trawl through Stereogum's great 'America's Number Ones' blog has only just passed the Carpenters final US chart topper

Oh my. Those Stereogum folk don't sugar coat it, do they? And they're right that it's hardly the Carps' finest hour.

"A rigid polka-fart backbeat" is my new favourite descriptive phrase.

But the Carpenters’ take on “Please Mr. Postman” was just pure numbing airlessness — a childish callback to what must’ve felt like simpler times.

It's interesting to think how many Carpenters songs were based on nostalgia or longing for earlier times.
 

Monzo

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Got all Carpenters albums. Last week I finally bought Richard Carpenter's first solo album Time, which has always been expensive in the market places. I'm enjoying it, it's better than expected and gives good idea of how Carpenters would have sounded in the late 80's if Karen hadn't died. Richard also produced Scott Grimes' debut album, which also got Carpenters vibe. Still looking for two other albums Richard had produced for Véronique Beliveau and Akiko Kobayashi in the late 80's, but it seems these two are hard to find and also very expensive.
 

Monzo

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Which artists remind you of the Carpenters? To me Barry Manilow, Anne Murray and Air Supply have Carpenters vibes. I see them as individuales in their music and not as clones. I enjoy them because there are parts in their singing, writing or arrangements that remind me of the Carpenters. I'm pretty sure there are other artists from the 70's or early 80's with Carpenters vibes, but I haven't just discovered them yet.
 

Mel O'Drama

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Which artists remind you of the Carpenters? To me Barry Manilow, Anne Murray and Air Supply have Carpenters vibes. I see them as individuales in their music and not as clones. I enjoy them because there are parts in their singing, writing or arrangements that remind me of the Carpenters. I'm pretty sure there are other artists from the 70's or early 80's with Carpenters vibes, but I haven't just discovered them yet.

Ooh - that's a tough one.

Sometimes I might hear a Richard type arrangement in something by, say, Alan Hawkshaw or even a jazz artist like Bob James, but it doesn't consciously register as such because it's a different genre, and of course there's no vocal.

Conversely, I hear occasional similarities to Karen's voice in certain Mandy Barnett tracks (the first line of I've Got A Right To Cry makes me think of Karen every time I play it. And Mandy's renditions of The End Of The World, I Fall To Pieces and Always sound very much like how I'd imagine a Carpenters version would sound in terms of key), but it's usually only flashes and it's usually with artists that hit different spots to the Carpenters' material.

The more I think about it, the more I realise how unique Carpenters were because of Karen and Richard's different musical strengths, so it's no surprise that the three artists you mentioned are all essentially in different genres (and I know what you mean with all of them in that they can speak to me in similar ways).
 

Mel O'Drama

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These bass covers are great. I find it fascinating to hear certain aspects of the instrumentation pulled forwards this way:




And now I adore I Need To Be In Love even more. Love the subtlety of this one:
 

Mel O'Drama

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Which artists remind you of the Carpenters? To me Barry Manilow

I've been diving into a number of Carpenters interviews recently. I've just finished the first part of this cracking 1981 radio interview, and Karen actually mentions Barry and his music at 22 minutes:

Karen said:
Manilow gets to me. There's one song that he released at the same time that we released I Need To Be In Love. [sings] This one's for you, wherever you are. That rips me to shreds. And we went to see him in concert, and I said "Barry. That kills me." And he said, well, the one that gets to him the most, ironically, was my other favourite which was I Need To Be In Love. And they were both out at the same time.


 

Monzo

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As much as I love Barry Manilow I prefer Carpenters versions of his hit singles "Can't Smile Without You" and "Trying To Get The Feeling Again". He also covered "Close To You" for one of his decade albums and it's not as good as Carpenters version. Like Carpenters Barry is gifted with covering good songs like "Mandy", "Ships" or "I Made It Through The Rain" to make them great.

The other day I finished reading Randy Schmidt's "Yesterday Once More: Memories of the Carpenters and their Music". It is a great book for fans. He's written other books about the Carpenters I'd like to read one day, too.

 

Mel O'Drama

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As much as I love Barry Manilow I prefer Carpenters versions of his hit singles "Can't Smile Without You" and "Trying To Get The Feeling Again".

I like both artists' versions of both songs, but because my first awareness of the tracks was through Barry's versions his versions just feel a bit more "right" to me.



He also covered "Close To You" for one of his decade albums and it's not as good as Carpenters version.

I think that's the case with many of the songs on his decades albums which, while not unenjoyable, feel like loving tributes to other artists rather than actual pieces of art themselves. I feel the same way about Rod Stewart's American Songbook series. Even though I like the product there's a bit of a whiff of the artist selling out and going a lazy, uninspired route.

Barry also covered There's A Kind Of Hush and When I Fall In Love, which both fare poorly when directly compared with the Carps' versions, but are nice enough as alternative versions.

I must say, though, Barry's version of Solitaire is lovely and he's made it sound like a proper angsty Manilow song of old, complete with multiple key changes.




Like Carpenters Barry is gifted with covering good songs like "Mandy", "Ships" or "I Made It Through The Rain" to make them great.

Yes, and with both artists there are many of those covers that I think of as "theirs" as much as some of the songs they've written.




The other day I finished reading Randy Schmidt's "Yesterday Once More: Memories of the Carpenters and their Music". It is a great book for fans. He's written other books about the Carpenters I'd like to read one day, too.

Sounds interesting. Internet searches aside, I haven't done much reading around the Carpenters, but I'm open to some reading material.
 
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Mel O'Drama

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there's one performance in particular of this track that's painful to watch because of how much investment Karen seems to have in the lyrics.

I hadn't put two and two together until reading an article just now, but this is part of an appearance which Richard had refused to attend.

By 1978, Richard had become addicted to Quaaludes, which he had been taking on prescription in increasing doses since the 1971 tours. On September 4, during an engagement at the MGM Grand in Las Vegas, he decided to quit touring, and the concerts there were curtailed. On December 3, the Carpenters were scheduled to play at the Pacific Terrace Theatre, Long Beach Convention Center, which turned out to be the last live concert that Karen and Richard played together. Richard refused to fly to the UK for an appearance on ITV's Bruce Forsyth's Big Night, realising he had a serious problem, so Karen performed without him and denied rumours that the duo were to split.

The whole section with Karen is wonderful. There's a lovely bit of banter with Brucie in between songs, and she seems to be enjoying herself when they're singing along together:


Brucie said:
Where's Richard?
Karen said:
We tossed a coin... and I lost.
 

Monzo

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Richard's illness led to Karen's Phil Ramone produced solo album, which many die-hard fans still don't love. I enjoy Karen going to disco, but rock not so much. Many fans criticize the lyrics of some of the songs on her solo album that do not suit Karen, because some lines are too sexy.
 
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Mel O'Drama

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Richard's illness led to Karen's Phil Ramone produced solo album, which many die-hard fans still don't love.

I can appreciate that as it does "feel" different from a Carpenters album despite Karen's reassuring presence and the fact that it's still fairly middle of the road. I can really feel a Bee Gees influence in it

It's a crime that it wasn't released during Karen's lifetime and I can imagine she was devastated when it was pulled. There's a really awkward moment at the end of the interview in post #9 where they're asked if they have any solo plans and Richard doesn't say much but just gives several sighs as Karen kind of stumbles her way through a diplomatic answer. This would be after the album was pulled, and it's almost like it's become yet another secret that she can't discuss openly.

It's difficult to know for sure, but it seems Richard and their mother both strongly disapproved of the album. It's such a shame she wasn't supported more in finding her own voice and trying something different.



Many fans criticize the lyrics of some of the songs on her solo album that do not suit Karen, because some lines are too sexy.

Yes, and I suppose for her that was the down-side of the Carpenters' success. She had a carefully curated image there which meant changing even the lyrics to Superstar to be more wholesome, and there was probably an expectation that this angelic purity would transfer entirely over to her solo album.

I imagine she might have felt like a typecast actor, struggling to break free of a perception based on one image when she had so many different facets she wanted to explore and share.
 

Monzo

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Richard was well and ready to go to work when Phil Ramone finally finished production on Karen's solo album. A&M preferred full attention to a new Carpenters album instead of Karen's solo album and a new Carpenters album being released within only a few months. Karen agreed, I've read this a couple of times, but I doubt it.

"My Body Keeps Changing My Mind" is my favorite on Karen's album, but it is weak compared to other disco hits I have to say.

Richard's solo album is prove of how important both siblings were to another. His production is important for her voice and her voice is unique for his production. Dusty Springfield and Dionne Warwick are guest singers and Dionne's song is very good, but Richard's arrangements don't work as well with these two great singers as it did with Karen.
 
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Mel O'Drama

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Richard's solo album is prove of how important both siblings were to another. His production is important for her voice and her voice is unique for his production. Dusty Springfield and Dionne Warwick are guest singers and Dionne's song is very good, but Richard's arrangements don't work as well with these two great singers as it did with Karen.

Oh, that's interesting. I haven't listened to Time and I'd wondered how Dusty and Dionne would sound with the Richard Carpenter touch. Even without listening I'm feeling his arrangements would have to be different for them than for Karen due to their different ranges, and he probably had less time to get it right with them than he would have done with Karen when they were finding their sound.
 

Grant Jennings

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I'm very familiar with the Carpenters, my sister (six years older than me) was a huge fan and played their albums frequently when we were growing up. I also remember my brother (three years older than me) cringing at their more bubble-gum songs; he had a special hatred for "There's A Kind of Hush". At their best, the Carpenters remind me of Diana Ross when she worked with Michael Masser; at their worst they remind me of Up With People or Lawrence Welk. I've always been partial to their mid-tier hits like "Goodbye To Love" and "For All We Know".

I think being siblings eventually became a hindrance to the Carpenters; there's a limit to how romantic or sensual song lyrics can be when performed by a brother and sister. Richard is a very talented arranger and producer (though not quite as talented as he will tell you he is), he understood what instrumentation worked best with Karen's voice but he usually polished their recordings to the nth degree coming dangerously close to Muzak territory.
 

Mel O'Drama

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I also remember my brother (three years older than me) cringing at their more bubble-gum songs; he had a special hatred for "There's A Kind of Hush". At their best, the Carpenters remind me of Diana Ross when she worked with Michael Masser; at their worst they remind me of Up With People or Lawrence Welk. I've always been partial to their mid-tier hits like "Goodbye To Love" and "For All We Know".

This made me smile. My Mum loved all the bubblegum stuff and as a tot I was young enough for those songs to grab me. I suspect I'd quite dislike saccharine songs like Sing or Sweet, Sweet Smile if I heard them for the first time today, but because they're part of my formative music memories I look on them very nostalgically.

That said, it's the more melancholy stuff - probably the mid-tier hits you describe - that I gravitate towards these days.




Richard is a very talented arranger and producer (though not quite as talented as he will tell you he is), he understood what instrumentation worked best with Karen's voice but he usually polished their recordings to the nth degree coming dangerously close to Muzak territory.

Agreed on all counts. It's incredible how many mixes are out there for some of their tracks. I use this database to keep track of them as different versions appear in different places, but even so it's a little intimidating to think about the differences between the original version of Superstar the various remixes from 1985, 1991, 2004, etc. Is Hurting Each Other better with a quiet intake of breath before the opening line, or a louder one. Or no breath at all? It can get a bit mind-blowing, with the very real risk that each revisit takes away something special.

It's also interesting how fiercely Richard keeps the original versions of most tracks from appearing on most compilation albums, to the point that certain compilations have been withdrawn and reissued if an original version mistakenly appeared in place of a remix.

On this subject, I've been looking into expanding my Carpenters studio album collection this week and have had to keep my fingers crossed that the couple of albums I've ordered feature original versions. As far as I understand it, the early CDs have remixes, but the 1998 Remastered Classics feature original versions. It's confusing though. There are so many different releases for each album. I've ordered new albums described as "remastered" in the hope that they're Bernie Grundman's 1998 remasters with the original album versions. But it's confusing all right.
 

Grant Jennings

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Passages is an interesting album with an even more interesting backstory. It's said the A & M wanted to find someone other than Richard to produce their next album because they were concerned about their record sales slumping but it is much more likely due to Richard's addiction to sleeping pills. They reached out to every major producer of the time and they all said no. Were the Carpenters that unpopular that no one wanted to work with them? I think it's more likely that they didn't want to work with Richard; an egomaniacal control-freak battling drug addiction, who wouldn't want to work with him?

Here's a review of Passages posted within the past week:
 

Grant Jennings

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Karen's solo album also has an interesting story behind it. Richard insists Karen was disappointed with it and never wanted it to be released but Phil Ramone, who produced it, and several of the musicians who worked on said Karen was pleased with the album and hoped it would be a hit. Quincy Jones was a fan of the album and thought it only needed to be remixed to be a hit. Rod Temperton, who frequently collaborated with Jones, worked on the album and wrote three songs for it (two of which were released). I suspect it was through Temperton that Jones became aware of the album. Despite Jones' enthusiasm, Herb Alpert and Jerry Moss were not persuaded and the album was shelved for 16 years.

Of the 22 songs Karen recorded, my favorite didn't make it onto the album. I first heard "Something's Missing (In My Life)" when it was recorded by Paul Jabara (who wrote it with Jay Asher). Jabara is best known for writing Disco hits like "Last Dance", "Enough is Enough" and "It's Raining Men"; he wrote and produced several big hits for Donna, Barbra and Diana; Whitney's first recording is on one of Jabara's albums. Karen having a hit with a Paul Jabara song would have made sense at the time but it never happened. It's a shame because Karen did a great job with the song (I think she excelled at melancholy material), I wish someone would record new backing tracks (it sounds like a demo to me, not a finished recording):

The other unreleased songs are also out there, posted to Youtube and other sites.
 
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