Marvel Watching the Marvel Cinematic Universe from the beginning...

[Mel O'Drama]

I mostly agree with your assessment of ULTRON, although I lean towards its positives rather than its negatives.

Given how I felt about The Avengers, perhaps my expectations should have been lower but there was an awful lot about the premise of Age Of Ultron that I was looking forward to.

This was Whedon's last MCU film (he switched to DC and his career imploded). I will be curious, in subsequent team films, if it was Whedon's style you disliked or the mechanics of having numerous characters in a film precluding the kind of character development one would get in a solo movie.

I, too, am curious about this. I suppose there's only one way for me to find out.

There are some multi-character superhero films I've really enjoyed, such as the first two X-Men films, so there's a good chance it's down to the style.

Its visual are gorgeous (I saw it in IMAX the first time).

Yes, it does look wonderful and I might have been blown away by the spectacle had I seen it in IMAX instead of a 55" TV.

The soundtrack is smashing and, even better, it's rooted in the emotional arc of the film. It's about a band of disgruntled misfits who form a bickering family unit; that's as quintessentially Marvel as I could hope for. And it has a conclusion that's witty and unexpected, without resorting to a slugfest. Yup, I love it.

All very good points and I can't disagree with any of that.

There are certain anachronisms that slip into the GOTG verbiage that have irked my persnickety nature but, in fairness, we don't actually know how an Earthling raised by an intergalactic band of space pirates would talk. Maybe such a person would have a vocal fry ...

Ha. This is also true. I'll try to bear that in mind when I get to Vol. 2.

General observation. I'm trying to phrase this delicately because my intention isn't to be snide, but you don't seem to like action scenes. These are action movies. For most people, the action scenes aren't something to suffer through, they're kind of the selling point of the films. It's a little like watching a musical and saying, "I hate when people sing and dance".

I'm in partial agreement here. The action scenes aren't the selling point of the films, but the characters are, so you're right to point out that I probably don't typify an MCU fan in that regard. When I read comics regularly, the most interesting things for me were usually the relationships and dynamics rather than the fights, but when the action came from character I loved it. It's the same with films.

I'm not an action film enthusiast, but there are some films and franchises I do enjoy.

Even within action films, there are different ways of delivering them. The action sequences in The Winter Soldier were bloody brilliant. For me that's one of the most action-orientated films of the series so far, and it's my favourite of the films in large part due to this, so an action scene is no bar to me enjoying a film if it's done in a way I find appealing.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Ant-Man (2015)

Like The Incredible Hulk, this is a rare MCU film I’ve watched before. Unlike The Incredible Hulk, I watched Ant-Man very recently indeed - just six months ago. Thanks to the gift of a foggy brain, it might as well have been a decade ago, though much of it naturally came back to me as I watched.

Here’s what I wrote at the time:

Starring Josh from Clueless.

With a ton of people related to Will Truman: Will's cop boyfriend was the hero's daughter's prospective stepfather. Freaky Teeth Guy who pretended to be a cop was the original Ant-Man. And Will's brother who slept with Grace twice in one night was Iron Man's dad.

I'm not too familiar with the Scott Lang version of Ant-Man, which probably helped. I was able to swallow what was presented for a couple of hours, even though it's all pretty meaningless and non-canon. All the same, it did feel weird that Henry Pym was so old, Janet was meant to be dead and their creaky voiced daughter was taking up Janet's Wasp mantle.

It was a nice, lighthearted take on the superhero film. I enjoyed it more than expected.

It’s been a nice little experiment to revisit this film in the context of its placement within the MCU. The rewards of doing this included: knowing how Peggy Carter fitted into things (I love that they’ve found ways of returning the character to the MCU. And of course she’ll have had her own TV spin-off between The First Avenger and Ant Man); enjoying the return of original recipe Howard Stark; a reference to the Avengers “dropping cities out of skies” registering with me. Plus my partner also now understood the reference to Hydra. And I also understood more how new the Falcon was and why Hank and Scott wouldn’t have known about the Avengers’ new base. And even with a degree of mystique around the mid-credits sequence I could now at least recognise Bucky.

There are many reasons why Ant-Man shouldn’t work for me, several of them mentioned in the quote above.

In addition there’s the coterie of “comedy” sidekicks that make up Scott’s little group. They’re far too broad and rather annoying. It feels a little like the roles were written to fit the styles of the actors (or comedians. Or singers. Or whatever they’re known for) rather than casting good character actors which would have ensured a more solid film.

Perhaps, though, this is simply a feature of the genre. To quote @Crimson, this one is Marvel’s “superhero as heist comedy”, and these characters probably fit that style. And while the broad characterisations of these supporting players don’t really do it for me, the very fact that they are supporting players and relegated somewhat to wallpaper does help.

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[Mel O'Drama]

Ant-Man
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The heist elements are great fun, with the suspense coming from the precision timings needed. I loved seeing Scott’s Macgyveresque ingenuity when it came to obtaining a fingerprint to access the safe. It’s done in such a slick way that I don’t question its viability.

The combination of earthy heist situations with the broad comic book stuff feels almost at odds with itself. It shouldn’t work, and yet it does.

Peyton Reed seems to have great fun with some of the comic book elements, particularly in Scott’s first time shrinking down in the bath and being confronted with everything from water to huge rats. There are shades of The Incredible Shrinking Man or Land Of The Giants in there.

Peyton Reed’s slightly retro quirk works well for this film, and pairing it with Christophe Beck’s equally charming score is a great match.

Paul Rudd is an engaging lead, and I particularly enjoy the difficult relationship between Scott and Jim Paxton.

I’m not at all familiar with Darren Cross. The only Yellowjacket I really know is yet another alias of Henry Pym’s. Corey Stoll plays him as the kind of brutish alpha male that very few people like being around, which is a good thing in an adversary. By the time he was flushing his colleague’s remains down the loo or evaporating the lamb he might have been twirling a moustache. And visually Yellowjacket makes a terrific villain once he's fully formed, costumed-up and all guns blazing.

The flashbacks to Pym as Ant-Man alongside Janet Van Dyne’s Wasp had a really nice vintage air to them that felt almost mythological, which made me think of Alex Ross’s depictions of classic Marvel characters in the Marvels limited series (that’s the 1994 comic, rather than the upcoming film featuring Ms. Marvel).

As I said, this isn’t a film I should love on paper, but it’s executed in a way that I find incredibly appealing, and there’s a nice, honest simplicity to the story which is essentially about one man’s way out of a destructive cycle and into superherodom. Which is everything a good origin story needs.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Here are Phases One & Two: Ranked…

1. Captain America: The Winter Soldier
2. Captain America: The First Avenger
3. Iron Man
4. The Incredible Hulk
5. Thor
6. Ant Man
7. The Avengers
8. Guardians Of The Galaxy
9. Avengers: Age Of Ultron
10. Thor: The Dark World
11. Iron Man 2
12. Iron Man 3

Ant-Man’s a curio, really. In many ways it feels far removed from MCU chronology despite its brief crossovers. I really enjoyed the tone of the film, though, and it would have ranked higher still if it weren’t for the silly sidekicks.

 

[Crimson]

As I said, this isn’t a film I should love on paper, but it’s executed in a way that I find incredibly appealing, and there’s a nice, honest simplicity to the story which is essentially about one man’s way out of a destructive cycle and into superherodom.

And this one is the flipside of ULTRON; I mostly agree with your assessment, but I lean towards the negatives rather than the positives on ANT-MAN.

One unifying thread that runs through the MCU is the sense of fun. There are few things I dislike more than superhero adventures being played as dark, dour or pretentious. DCEU fans will grouse the MCU is too "glib", but if there's anything that should have good humor its adventures based on kids' comic books. ANT-MAN, however, pushes the humor a bit too far for my taste. It's the closest to outright comedy and it often feels like a broad (and not very good) sitcom. It strains against the limits of verisimilitude and doesn't quite fit into the overall tone of the MCU.

Buried underneath the TGIF sitcom vibes is a solid superhero origin story, but even here I find it a problem: the villain is lackluster. Of all villains Marvel has to choose from, I'm baffled why origin stories so often take the unimaginative route of the "dark mirror" villain (Abomination; War Monger; Yellow Jacket).

ANT-MAN is fine, but it's low mid-tier for me.

1. Captain America: The Winter Soldier
2. Guardians of the Galaxy vol 1
3. The Avengers
4. Iron Man
5. Captain America: The First Avenger
6. Avengers: Age of Ultron
7. Thor
8. The Incredible Hulk
9. Ant-Man
10. Iron Man 3
11. Iron Man 2
12. Thor: The Dark World

 

[Mel O'Drama]

I will be curious, in subsequent team films, if it was Whedon's style you disliked or the mechanics of having numerous characters in a film precluding the kind of character development one would get in a solo movie.

Reflecting on this a little more, I'm excitedly wondering how I'll feel about the next film I'm due to watch, Captain America: Civil War.

As you know, both Cap films have been my favourites to date, and I really wouldn't have anticipated this before watching them. And we know how I've felt about the two Avengers films.

From the imagery and limited information I've seen, Civil War seems to be pretty much an Avengers film. But it has the writers of the two Cap films and the director of my favourite MCU film so far.

This could be interesting.

One unifying thread that runs through the MCU is the sense of fun.

Definitely.

There are few things I dislike more than superhero adventures being played as dark, dour or pretentious.

There are a couple of the darker ones I enjoy, but they're the exceptions and yes, the DC films seem to really overdo that.

ANT-MAN, however, pushes the humor a bit too far for my taste. It's the closest to outright comedy and it often feels like a broad (and not very good) sitcom. It strains against the limits of verisimilitude and doesn't quite fit into the overall tone of the MCU.

I can understand that. I don't know why it clicked with me the way it did, or why I was more easily able to overlook some of its shortcomings. Some of it might simply be down to my affection for the Ant-Man and Wasp characters as concepts.

You are right about the comedy elements. In some ways it felt like the dramedies that were popular in the mid Noughties (Desperate Housewives, and suchlike). Despite this, Ant-Man still feels like a good fit with the wider MCU for me. Especially when I think of how diverse the styles of the previous solo origin films were. I wouldn't want to see this kind of tone in every MCU film, but as a one-off I liked it.

 

[Crimson]

Reflecting on this a little more, I'm excitedly wondering how I'll feel about the next film I'm due to watch, Captain America: Civil War.

Ditto. This is the movie that I've been waiting for you opinions on, as I think it will have a strong indicator of how much you'll enjoy some subsequent films.

From the imagery and limited information I've seen, Civil War seems to be pretty much an Avengers film.

I was going to save this observation until after your review of the movie, but yes -- CIVIL WAR is basically a stealth Avengers film. I will refrain from commenting on how I feel about it as an Avengers movie, but my biggest resentment towards the MCU is that Cap didn't get a true third solo film. After TWS, I had a dream of an entire series of Bond/Bourne type films starring Cap. Alas.

BTW, forgot to mention this earlier but those One Shots all appear to be on Youtube, if you're still looking for them.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

This is the movie that I've been waiting for you opinions on, as I think it will have a strong indicator of how much you'll enjoy some subsequent films.

Oh gosh. It's feeling like this film could be a key moment for me with the MCU.

my biggest resentment towards the MCU is that Cap didn't get a true third solo film. After TWS, I had a dream of an entire series of Bond/Bourne type films starring Cap. Alas.

I suspect I'll feel the same way. While I don't mind the idea of each of the three films having a different kind of tone from one another, The Winter Soldier just exceeded any expectation of what I might want in a film of this kind and I'd love this to have continued.

BTW, forgot to mention this earlier but those One Shots all appear to be on Youtube, if you're still looking for them.

Oh thanks. I'll hopefully come back to them at some point. Perhaps after The Infinity Saga, or after I've watched all the available films and Disney+ series.

Since I've watched the films at such a pace so far, I'm hoping to also watch some of the ABC series available. I'll probably work the Disney+ series in between the films by release date and then come back to the ABCs afterwards. You mentioned the ABC and Netflix series are fairly tenuously connected to the MCU films so hopefully it'll all still make sense.

 

[Crimson]

I'll probably work the Disney+ series in between the films by release date and then come back to the ABCs afterwards.

The Disney + series are close to essential, if you're aiming for completism of the MCU canon. Quality is variable --- I have opinions! -- but none of them are long. I think they're all six episodes, so you're not facing daunting, 23-episode seasons to get through. Some of the episodes are even pretty short, so watched consecutively they play more like slightly long movies.

The ABC shows are peripheral, at best. I admit, I didn't finish watching either of the AGENT series. I liked AGENT CARTER well enough; that I stopped watching is more a reflection of my own fickleness. I think there's only 18 episodes of that one, although AGENTS OF S.H.I.E.L.D. is definitely over 100 episodes.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

The Disney + series are close to essential, if you're aiming for completism of the MCU canon.

That's settled that for me, then. I'll go with that suggested viewing order you linked to earlier in the thread.

Quality is variable --- I have opinions! -

I'm looking forward to you being able to share them.

but none of them are long. I think they're all six episodes, so you're not facing daunting, 23-episode seasons to get through. Some of the episodes are even pretty short, so watched consecutively they play more like slightly long movies.

Yes - that definitely makes it more attractive.

AGENTS OF S.H.I.E.L.D. is definitely over 100 episodes.

Yes - this clinched it for me with deciding whether or not to watch Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. when I got to 2013. The sheer volume of it was too daunting, there was no question of me watching over a hundred episodes in between films and breaking up the seasons isn't an attractive prospect for me either.

All the same, I'll hope to give it a go at some point down the line.

 

[Crimson]

I'm looking forward to you being able to share them.

Well, watch faster, slowpoke.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Captain America: Civil War (2016)

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To begin, I’m endlessly fascinated by the idea of superhumans being mandated to register with a Government who then decides how and if they use their powers. In my comics reading day, the Mutant Registration Act had a huge impact on many of the stories I was reading. In the early Eighties, one of the first X-Men stories I read was Days Of Future Past, with its bleak vision of concentration camps and genocide against mutants.

Once the ball was rolling it was logical to extend this to all superhuman beings. Many years after I’d stopped regularly reading comics - I picked up a couple of Civil War crossover issues when Spider-Man going public with his secret identity made the newspapers in the UK. It was exciting to see how this storyline originally contained mainly within mutant titles had expanded to impact practically the entire Marvel Universe.

After watching the first three MCU films, I commented that :

Throughout all three films, there’s been a definite theme of weaponry and skills being sought at any cost in order for them to be monetised or used for less than altruistic purposes.

Intentionally or otherwise - this means the framework was there for this storyline to be a natural fit for the Cinematic Universe right from the beginning.

I really appreciate that - be it in comics or on film - these characters live in a world that responds to them in much the same way as we would. They’ve also seen first hand the damage that’s done when

The Sokovia Accords - the film’s version of the Superhuman Registration Act - are a natural outcome of the collateral damage from previous battles, and the schisms this creates within the group come equally naturally. On the surface it may seem backwards that the rebellious Iron Man is keen to fall in with regulation while square-jawed patriot Captain America is determined to fight it, but these are actually shining examples of character informing situation informing character. Cap was battling Nazis, for goodness’ sake. Who better to know the damage that can come when attempts are made to regulate, control and dominate others based on a fear of their differences.

And as for Tony, he’s experiencing a post traumatic guilt which very much echoes that of Iron Man 3. It should be disappointing to see the same emotional arc replayed, but it feels like a truthful response to what’s happened in the films since then. One of the luxuries of this universe is that actions have repercussions that resonate beyond the single film in which they take place, and Tony is not off the hook for errors of judgement such as creating Ultron.

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[Mel O'Drama]

Captain America: Civil War



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While a Captain America film by name, it’s far from the pure sequel I’d have hoped for after The Winter Soldier. Given that the the two Captain America films have been - as far as I’m concerned - the best of the MCU, it seems a little unfair to burden what appears to be an Avengers film with the Captain America title.

Not only is this effectively an Avengers film, it’s an Avengers film with a larger roster than either of the officially-titled Avengers films so far: some twelve superheroes are featured here, including two who make their MCU debut in this film. And we know how I’ve struggled with the writing in the team films.

On top of this, with Cap and Iron Man heading their divided members (and recruiting their own non-members for support), this film also feels at times like an Iron Man sequel.

Objectively, it seems as though Civil War is trying to be all things to all people, which is usually a recipe for disaster.


The good news, though, is that it’s most certainly not a disaster. Far from it. Here’s what astounded me about it:

• Firstly, it is a decent Captain America sequel, running with some unfinished threads from The Winter Soldier and with the same writers and director delivering many of the same sensibilities.

• Secondly, it’s a fascinating Iron Man vehicle. If I want a good Tony Stark burnout/self-doubt story that puts the character at odds with those around him, I’d take Civil War over either of his self-titled sequels.

• Thirdly - and here’s the shocker - for me, this is the first truly great Avengers film. It not only explores and tests dynamics within the group, it expands their universe. And it does so in a way that feels organic and inviting.

So there - it’s happened. The Russos along with the two writers have been able to deliver an Avengers film that I’ve not only enjoyed, but connected with in a very meaningful way.

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[Mel O'Drama]

Captain America: Civil War

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While it may not have had the slow burn of The First Avenger or the real world feel of The Winter Soldier, I noticed early on that this film doesn’t shy away from scenes of lengthy dialogue. We essentially sit in on an Avengers board meeting and absorb the different viewpoints. There are moments, too, of quiet. I thought Cap getting news by text message of Peggy’s death was especially effective because we the audience were the only ones that shared this news with him and it got across something very relatable: life has a way of throwing unexpected and unpleasant surprises at us, often while we’re dealing with the previous unexpected and unpleasant surprise.

Peggy’s funeral, too, progressed the story in a way that felt natural. Steve - his mind very much on the schisms within the group - heard a meaningful message in the eulogy delivered by Sharon that helped him decide to take a stand.

By the way, I thought the globetrotting and the various supers introducing each location had quite a mid-century feel which felt very appropriate for a Captain America film.

Naturally, the story with Bucky helped tie things very much to The Winter Soldier. As I said after watching that film, I was on the fence with him as a character and I didn’t relish the idea of another film devoted to that story. It certainly worked here though.

I did feel my buttocks clench slightly when there was the obligatory introductory Avengers fight near the very start of the film, since my main memory of the two Avengers films is of messy, random pile-ons with lots of blurry CGI shown in long shot where it’s difficult to make out what’s going on and who’s doing what to whom (I dare say that’s not the full story, but there were enough of these types of shots to make me tune out).

Here, though, I felt there was something a little more intimate about the way they’re shown. We spend time on characters within the scenario to see a one-to-one fight where we can make out actors actually doing something physical.

As more fights happened throughout the film, I appreciated that some had the gritty, bloody-nosed, broken-toothed visceral feel that had been a hallmark of The Winter Soldier.

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[Mel O'Drama]

Captain America: Civil War

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Then there was the big fight - the Clash Of The Avengers at Leipzig-Halle Airport. And this is where I knew this film was really doing something right. With the introduction of colourful characters such as Spider-Man and Ant Man, this is in some ways the most cartoony fight yet seen in the MCU. But it embraced this fully and was actually fun. Once again, it cut away to show one-to-one fights and - the clincher for me - it included some pithy, cheeky banter. Many of the best fights in Marvel comics have included witty dialogue and this was something that either wasn’t present or didn’t register with me in the two Avengers films. This time round I found myself chuckling out loud at some of the lines, or simply at the baffled reactions to the new heroes with their different powers (not to mention Paul Rudd’s dinosaur roars after becoming Giant Man).

It wasn’t just silly dialogue for the sake of it. The camaraderie in this scene was truly joyful and I very much appreciated the balance this film struck between the broad and the intimate, and the Leipzig-Halle fight also had some nice character moments, such as Natasha’s decision to aid Cap and Bucky’s escape.

Then there was the dramatic change in tone when something went very wrong and Rhodey ended up seriously injured (as I watched it play out, I actually thought they’d killed him off). Effortlessly, it went from Lee/Kirbyesque comic fun to a moment of grim reality and I felt almost guilty for enjoying the fight. And that’s the point. Again and again, there were different reminders that the stakes were extremely high and there were casualties of this war and those that had come before.

The Clash Of The Avengers is notable for the moment Spider-Man swings into the MCU in full costume. I was previously aware of this moment due to the surrounding hype, which was all but impossible to avoid, and was pleasantly surprised to find that there was also an earlier scene in which Tom Holland’s Peter Parker was approached by Tony Stark.

If there’s a turning point in the expansion of the universe to include new heroes it’s the latter part of Phase Two and the beginning of Phase Three. Whereas Phase One had fairly cautious introductions of new additions such as characters such as Black Widow and Hawkeye, The last three films alone have introduced Vision, the Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver (albeit briefly), Ant-Man, Black Panther and Spider-Man to the Avengers’ world. It’s done with flair and it also shows a great deal of confidence in the MCU as a continuing series that needs future-proofing to allow for the inevitable point (we’re eight years and thirteen films down the line) when long-standing actors will begin departing.

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[Mel O'Drama]

Captain America: Civil War

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Of the three new almost-Avengers in this instalment, T’Challa is by far the most intriguing. Even putting aside the fact that we’ve already met Ant-Man in his own film and that Spider-Man is instantly recognisable to pretty much everyone, their fast-talking does wear thin quite quickly, while T’Challa’s quiet nobility just makes me want to see more and to know more. It seems fitting that he should debut in this instalment since it’s essentially about a social movement and Black Panther is the first black superhero in mainstream comics. Based on Chadwick Boseman’s restrained performance I’m very excited at the prospect of watching the Black Panther film in due course.

Having watched the first two Holland Spider-Man films I thought I’d developed a tolerance for his hyperactive performance, but despite a nicely written introductory Peter scene there were times I struggled with him all over again here. I know that the over-enthusiasm is (mostly) deliberate and irritates other characters, which helps a little. But an annoying talkative teen is an annoying talkative teen. All the same, the moment where Spidey leaps into shot for the very first time feels very exciting, and I love that the mask looks exactly as I feel it should (I’m not a fan of the cartoony “blinking” eyes, but given it’s Stark Technology I’ll accept it).

Of all MCU films to date, Civil War feels perhaps the most integrated into the wider universe. There are nods to the past (the inclusion of William Hurt as Thunderbolt Ross is a lovely touch); acknowledgements of all its characters journeys to date; there’s a little more depth for some characters (MCU Wanda has clicked with me as of Civil War) and exciting hints about the future.

It all feels very well-structured. As I said, I’d thought that trying to tick so many boxes and be so many things would be doomed to failure. To date I’ve had a problem with films that are too busy and that are over-complex. I suspected I might like this as an Avengers film but not a Cap sequel (or that vice versa would be best case scenario). I thought I might appreciate its significant introductions as a means to an end while gritting my teeth and riding out the obligatory fight scenes.

The biggest surprise is that, for me it did it all, and it did it well. It’s dark. It’s fun. It’s gritty. It’s thoughtful. It’s fun. It’s careful. It’s wild. It’s… Marvel.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

On the basis that this film did everything I thought it couldn’t, I’ve surprised even myself with ranking this one.

1. Captain America: Civil War
2. Captain America: The Winter Soldier
3. Captain America: The First Avenger
4. Iron Man
5. The Incredible Hulk
6. Thor
7. Ant Man
8. The Avengers
9. Guardians Of The Galaxy
10. Avengers: Age Of Ultron
11. Thor: The Dark World
12. Iron Man 2
13. Iron Man 3

So there we go. It's a hat-trick for Cap. And a team film takes the #1 spot... who’d have thought.


A promising start for Phase Three. If it gets any better than this I can't wait to be there

 

[Crimson]

So there - it’s happened. The Russos along with the two writers have been able to deliver an Avengers film that I’ve not only enjoyed, but connected with in a very meaningful way.

This film is pivotal in the MCU -- not only in the narrative, but in the overall direction. If you had not liked this one, I'd be concerned about how a few upcoming films would land with you. So I guess that's the answer -- it's Whedon's style that was irking you; so you might want to delay getting around to Buffy for another 20 years. I think the Russo Brothers are the best directors of the MCU. Their ability to juggle a vast lineup of characters, while giving each if not development at least moments to shine, is remarkable and will be even more important in films to come.

With so much going on, the narrative is surprisingly tight and cohesive. I saw CIVIL WAR in theaters five times (I saw TWS & GOTGv1 at least six each). One of those times, my mom tagged along. She had no interest in superhero films and had seen only one prior MCU movie. She not only enjoyed this movie, she understood it well enough. For a film based on so many previously established characters and plot points, for it to be accessible to a neophyte is an impressive achievement in writing and directing.

I think CIVIL WAR is the most fully Marvel of the entire MCU; this is what I consider my 1c, a top contender for my favorite of the franchise. My only real complaint has nothing to do with the film itself but where it fits within the franchise. This is a stealth Avengers movie and really should have been AVENGERS 3, allowing Cap to have his own final solo film. To its credit, the film manages to feel anchored around Cap as much as possible with so many characters and almost equal consideration for Iron Man, but I feel like Steve was cheated out of his third solo outing*.

1. Captain America: The Winter Soldier
2. Guardians of the Galaxy vol 1
3. Captain America: Civil War
4. The Avengers
5. Iron Man
6. Captain America: The First Avenger
7. Avengers: Age of Ultron
8. Thor
9. The Incredible Hulk
10. Ant-Man
11. Iron Man 3
12. Iron Man 2
13. Thor: The Dark World

* To date, of course. Who knows what the future may bring!

 

[Mel O'Drama]

This film is pivotal in the MCU -- not only in the narrative, but in the overall direction. If you had not liked this one, I'd be concerned about how a few upcoming films would land with you.

I couldn't resist looking up to see which other MCU films the writers and directors were involved with and was delighted to see all four attached to the other two Avengers sequels. If they are anything like this in tone I'll be one happy camper.

I guess that's the answer -- it's Whedon's style that was irking you; so you might want to delay getting around to Buffy for another 20 years.

Ha ha. Yes - it hasn't made me want to rush out and buy the DVDs.

Their ability to juggle a vast lineup of characters, while giving each if not development at least moments to shine, is remarkable and will be even more important in films to come.

Yes. With so many characters involved I was really impressed by how much went on in terms of character development.

One of those times, my mom tagged along. She had no interest in superhero films and had seen only one prior MCU movie. She not only enjoyed this movie, she understood it well enough. For a film based on so many previously established characters and plot points, for it to be accessible to a neophyte is an impressive achievement in writing and directing.

To pull that off with such a densely populated film is truly impressive.

Before starting this watch, I'd watched my four MCU films randomly. They'd all made sense, but they were all solo films and I at least had the benefit of knowing most of the key characters ahead of time.

think CIVIL WAR is the most fully Marvel of the entire MCU

Oh yes, I couldn't agree more.

The First Avenger is classier. The Winter Soldier is more exciting and surprising. But Civil War just seemed to capture something really special that reminded me of how I used to feel when diving into a new comic that had just come out.

That was exactly the factor that made it pretty decisive for me in giving it the #1 spot.

My only real complaint has nothing to do with the film itself but where it fits within the franchise. This is a stealth Avengers movie and really should have been AVENGERS 3, allowing Cap to have his own final solo film.

Yes. I'd be interested in knowing more about the process. From the little I've read it seems all involved wanted to make a third Captain America film, so I'm curious to know how it became such a team film, and why it was decided to still market this particular film as a Cap film rather than doing Avengers: Civil War and then a Cap solo.

 

[Crimson]

I’m not sure how to feel about Tony Stark outing himself as Iron Man at the film’s end. In the comics I enjoyed the device of the Avengers interacting with both Stark and Iron Man believing Stark to be their benefactor and Iron Man to be Stark’s bodyguard. I’d really like to have seen this play out for at least one Avengers film.

Going all the way back to your first review for this, but I had skipped it at the time; I didn't think it was possible to talk about this until you were further along in the MCU. For as much as the MCU has made the most of superhero fiction, it has always been surprisingly reticent about three tropes of the genre: secret identities, code names, and costumes.

Of the three, I am most forgiving on secret identities. The truth is, it's the least plausible trope of the genre. An indestructible alien who can fly? I can suspend my disbelief. He puts on glasses and the smartest reporter in the world doesn't recognize him? Oh, come on! If the pandemic has confirmed one thing, a mask does not hide someone's identity; it's not like I suddenly can't recognize people because half their faces are covered. Even full masks don't quite cut it. In a world where cameras are everywhere, how plausible is it that someone could do a quick change in an alley or slip into their apartment unseen? The MCU has dabbled in it a bit, but yeah, it's a trope best left to the past. Since secret IDs aren't much of a thing, then so too that code names largely fall by the wayside. Characters are rarely, and sometimes never, called by their superhero moniker.

I'm much less forgiving about costumes. It's maddening because sometimes the MCU costumes are so spot on, and other times they don't even try. The excuse is often that comic accurate costumes won't translate into "real life", but any cosplayer can prove that wrong with a budget a fraction of the size Hollywood has.

Not related, but I'll add one general gripe about the MCU films: the musical scores just aren't memorable. Sometimes while watching one of the films, I'll note the musical score matches the scene but not one of them has ever stuck in my head. It's unfortunate that none of the characters have musical signatures to match the iconic Superman, Batman or (Raimi) Spider-Man themes.