#metoo

[Emelee]

So this campaign is all over right now. In many countries. For better and for worse.

How many times are women supposed to be forced to tell their stories until something is done about the main problem????? 97% of sexual offenders are men. So if 100 people are raped on a day, 97 of them are women, and 97 of the rapists are men.

When is it time for men to discuss these issues with other men? When will the focus shift from the victims to the offenders?

I know for sure that there are men who sexually harrass (or step over the line in some way) people are actually unaware that that is what they are doing! Some guys don't realize that touching a woman's stomach, breast or thigh is inappropriate. That it's just some innocent petting or a perfectly ok way of flirting.

I see many women that I know writing "me too" on social media this week. I am one of those who wrote this hashtag on my social media accounts, as I have been subjected as well. More than once. By more than just one man. And I've felt shame - enough so that I kept quiet about it for years. I, like so many others, honestly believed that it wasn't common, that it we were alone. So we kept quiet. Until a few years ago when being open about it didn't feel shameful anymore. Ever since then, it's been about the victims telling their stories - over and over. Society didn't change.

Why is it that some people think they have the right to grope, rape, harrass or taunt others in sexual ways? What is wrong with our society???

 

[Frank Underwood]

When will women tell other women that's it's not right to strip their husband of every last penny in a divorce proceeding? When will women tell other women that's it's not okay to keep a father from his child, yet demand he pay to support the child? When will women tell other women that it's not okay to abuse or kill their children?

What conversations do men need to have with other men exactly? Decent men already know abuse is wrong, and sociopaths can't be persuaded to be respectful. The other problem is that today's feminists only seem to care about victims of abuse when they are women. When men are victims of a crime, including sexual assault or harassment, it's trivialized because it's less common. IMO, the humane and rational way of looking at it is having empathy for all victims, regardless of gender. Anybody who harms another person should be locked up.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

I've heard Sweden is really uber-feministicky.

 

[Frank Underwood]

According to a CNN article, "If you are a man and you log on to Twitter today, perhaps you'll now learn that sexual pestering, sexual blackmail, sexual assault -- the full gamut -- are everyday concerns for the women around you.

Although one wonders. Perhaps no woman in your life has felt comfortable telling you this in the past. Perhaps you've never noticed it for yourself. Are you going to have your mind changed by the latest trending hashtag?"

Here it is again. These feminists act like every man on Earth is some dumb ape that is incapable of understanding what women go through. Yes, we get that some men are shitheads that take advantage of women. But why do they always talk down to those of us who aren't rapey, as if we're somehow responsible for the men who are?

Are we going to have our minds changed by a hashtag? No. Those of us who aren't committing sexual assault already realize it's a horrible thing that happens. The problem is that men are lambasted for not doing more to stop it. If we actively witness sexual assault or harassment and do nothing, I can see the problem. But there's this weird implication that we can somehow prevent it from happening in the first place, as if we're solely responsible for how these pigs turn out. Why aren't they this condescending towards their mothers? Didn't they have a hand in raising these abusers? It just feels like misdirected criticism to me. They mistakenly believe that men are oblivious to sexual assault or that they side with the predators.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

Let's face it: if you're a dreadful, horrible person -- but you've got a vagina -- aren't you going to passionately embrace (as long as it doesn't sexually harass you) an ideology which assumes you're the righteous victim 100% of the time without exception, and claims that you, as a women, are blamed for everything as a rationale and a cover for your not being blamed for anything? And where your angry, disapproving, mother-ish contempt for men is completely socially acceptable and presumed justified while men's hatred of you is also assumed -- and assumed unjustified?

And that all of that desperately matters, all of the time?

I don't take much personal offense to it, but it's just so exhausting -- even from a distance, which is where I try to stay from it... There's the endless "look at me! look at me!" element to it, too.

It's vaguely humorous to hear these very young girls, giddily energized by the notion that they've got an eternal scapegoat in the other gender, and who haven't witnessed the turnover of generations of quasi-feministic rhetoric over the decades, proudly asserting that "if you're against feminism, then you're just against equality!" as if late third wave has anything to do with women's rights or equality.

Which is why it's important that sexual harassers, and in fact all criminals, be seen as metaphors for all men. "'Male' is the root of 'malevolent'."

I've witnessed conversations about sexual harassment and rape where the mention of men's victimization was met with a "yeah, but that's done by other men" (which we know isn't true, especially with all the stories coming out recently about all the female middle school teachers banging their male students) as if a boy's victimization is neutralized by the fact that his victimizer is also male, the point even being made that he'd just grow into a victimizer himself anyway, so it doesn't matter.

And what about men who actually do hate women? Has it crossed anybody's mind that some of them may have a reason? We certainly don't questions women's hatred of men or the reasons for it; it's considered self-evident.

And when statistics on victims of violence show that the whole world is in fact not a "safe space" for men, the media and the culture just ignore them or don't report them. As Hillary Clinton has said, "women are the biggest victims of war," and the sentiment is uncontested. Sally Field, who I like, receives her Emmy and wails, "if mothers ran the world, there would be no wars!" as if we've seen the data on that study, the sanctity of women and their innate nurturing (even while they're being raped, mind you) not even in question.

I'm no defender of guys -- I don't find most of them to be all that admirable either. But among all the awful, repugnant, sadistic people I've ever known, at least half were women. And they were better at it. And, what's more, we all know it.

So this 24/7 mantra of "men=bad; women=good" has long since revealed itself to be not simply an error or a sociological miscalculation occurring as we attempt to acknowledge and correct certain behaviors, but something more sinister.

Unfortunately, a lot of the men who have come to recognize the scam that's going on with feminism today, respond to it by embracing conservative ideology politically, their viewing the hypocrisies of the female-entitlement-while-she's-victimized dynamic as coming from the political left. When in fact both sides of the political fence are, in the parlance of the present, equally gynocentric. And he doesn't recognize the equal scam of Trickle Down Economics coming from the political right.

But all legitimate and necessary social movements eventually do this. And it's actually a good sign: it means the movement has essentially achieved its original goals and has saturated the culture. Because once that has happened, and because these movement don't then go away, the offenses and victimy stuff have to become increasingly absurd and selective and indulgent (e.g., the right to vote versus manspreading, the right to own property versus redesigning men's rooms so they can't stand and urinate -- even in a stall) in order to keep that movement energized and relevant.
And that includes pretending you're 'blamed for everything' to assure that no one is free to blame you at all.

I mean, they don't even want Eve blamed for that apple thing.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

I was listening to an NPR show today where the feminist interviewees were saying that it's "men's job" to stop the male rapists.

And then went on to say that women who are sexually harassed supposedly have no resources, no place to go with their stories, and "we need to have a conversation about that" as they always do.

Well, women (and men) who have been sexually harassed legitimately may have a hard time, but people who lie about it -- and many, many do -- know exactly what to do and exactly where to go. And they are very much listened to -- and they know they will be.

How many times are women supposed to be forced to tell their stories until something is done about the main problem????? 97% of sexual offenders are men. So if 100 people are raped on a day, 97 of them are women, and 97 of the rapists are men.

That's ridiculous. Your numbers are a lie -- a goddess damned lie.

A major problem in the culture now is that we deny the evil of women, that it even exists unless it can be blamed on psychic scarring resulting from patriarchal abuses. No one denies the evil of men, of course, and no one thinks to blame it on anything but himself and his gender.

And the attempt to minimize sexual abuse and harassment of men (and not infrequently by women, though one assumes it's mostly men) is just one example of that evil.

And stats that you rarely hear in the media are that mothers are much more violent towards (and even kill) their toddler children -- especially their toddler sons, interestingly -- than fathers ... and that's even taking into account that fathers are not in the household anywhere near as much as mothers.

If you're a woman and you've been raped or sexually harassed, but you deny or trivialize the same thing being done to men and/or you attempt to project blame onto all men, then you're actually minimizing your own mistreatment.

You're minimizing your own mistreatment.

Ever since then, it's been about the victims telling their stories - over and over. Society didn't change.

Maybe it didn't change for the same reasons you deny or minimalize what happens to boys.

 

[Emelee]

Sorry to say this, but I find both of your replies quite sickening and appalling. And it's obvious that you don't have a clue what it's like being a woman in a man's world.

No one has ever said that all men rape. No one even thinks that. So men who don't look down on women, men who don't make unwanted sexual advances on others, men who thinks all humans have the right to decide over their own body, men who respect women, men who are sickened when victims tell their stories of being abused etc etc -- guess what? No one is accusing you!! Don't take it personal when women tell their stories!! Just feel what is normal: complete and utter disgust that it is so often happening in the world. Disgust that so many humans feel that they can do whatever they want to other humans. Just react with the same disgust. That's all that is wanted & expected from you.

Time and time again, statistics say that men are overly represented as offenders in criminal acts like rape, sexual abuse, sexual harrassment and sexual driven murder.

97% is the statistics in Sweden. 97% of all reported sexual offenses in Sweden are committed by men.

If a man is sexually abused by a woman, it's just as terrible. But guess what - it doesn't happen that often compared to the other way around. Saying otherwise is 100% bullshit!

And I seriosly feel ill when you guys say "feminists" in such a way that you mean all feminists are the same. You hate it when some people say "men rape" instead of "some men rape" -- but you are guilty of the same thing when you write "feminists say".

I am a proud feminist, but it does not mean that I feel that all men are potential sex offenders. I know plenty of men that are awesome, kind, fun and far above from using their power to force themselves on others. Most men I know are great guys.

However, I have come across a few men that aren't so great. I have been sexually abused by two men at two different occasions. By two men that I trusted, that seemed great on the surface. Men that my family would never guess have crossed the line with me (I never told my parents because I felt too ashamed -- back then I didn't realize that it was the men that should have felt ashamed).


Why it's men that should talk to these men? Well, it hasn't worked when women tell them off. These men who sexually abuse women don't respect women. Of course they aren't going to listen! But if other men step up more and be very vocal about it being horrible to use and abuse others, women might have a better chance.

Remember ~90 years ago when women weren't trusted to vote? Women gathered together to fight for their right. But it wouldn't have mattered if powerful men didn't see the error in dismissing women - because we still wouldn't be allowed to vote if a majority of the men hadn't stepped up to invite us in.

Comparing sexual abuse to messy divorces isn't fair! If a woman can walk out of a marriage with more than 50% of the assets, then the laws are to blame. But we have clear laws against rape, abuse and harrassment. But if you willingly enter a marriage, you know fully well that if you end up divorcing, you will split the assets 50/50. That is no surprise. Besides, most women work today and brings in money as well. Women always earn less money for the exact same job as men though. Fairness?

I am 100% against someone "kidnapping" the children from their other parent after a divorce - I can't understand why anyone wants to rob their child of a decent childhood unless the other patent is downright bad for the child. Vindictive a-holes who do that ought to be ashamed. This opinion comes from me - a feminist.

I've heard Sweden is really uber-feministicky.

If by uber-feministicky you mean that we strive for gender equality, then you are almost correct. There are far too many Swedes that are against feminism. Most of them are men who feel either threatened or feel that women should still be housewives, cook, clean and be sex kittens.

But being equality friendly is 100% benefitial for men. Cause when women work...

• they too pay taxes that goes to health care, education, transporting, roads etc etc.
• men don't need to support the family alone, which means they can spend more money on their interests.
• Sweden has paid paternity leave from work, as well as paid maternity leave to make sure that men get the chance to bond with their children.
• men too excel in how to cook, clean, do laundry etc etc

As that perfect meme says: more rights for women doesn't mean less rights for men: it's not pie.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

Sorry to say this, but I find both of your replies quite sickening and appalling.

Well, of course you do. Because you're stereotyping our responses and commentary. But we're not doing that to yours.

It's clear you're not really reading our posts; just reacting.

You admitted that you couldn't watch the videos of "that stupid woman" Karen Straughan, and just stereotyped what she was saying as well. Even though her commentary is far more thoughtful than your own.

Do you really think feminism was originally about women always being right?

Frankly, we're sickened by your being sickened.

And it's obvious that you don't have a clue what it's like being a woman in a man's world.

You mean not a clue to your raging naivete?

And by the way, we never said rape was OK. Did we?

And why do you trivialize rape and harassment of men, which goes on all the time?? When you do that, you are also trivializing the rape of women.

No one has ever said that all men rape. No one even thinks that.

Oh, yes they've said it. And yes they think it. You're either naive or just being disingenuous. Perhaps both.

97% is the statistics in Sweden. 97% of all reported sexual offenses in Sweden are committed by men.

Your statistics are completely unreliable. They say what Sweden's feminists want them to say. Although the "reported" bit I'm sure is more or less accurate.

The feminist movement has become evil -- like most movements do and must...

Now, I realize @Emelee won't read beyond that point, but all necessary and important social movements eventually have to become evil to survive and remain relevant once they've achieved the original, valid goals they'd previously been about.

And why??

Once any movement has attained a certain level of cultural saturation and basic success (which they always deny has happened) the movement in question can no longer sustain its momentum and keep its supporters motivated with the same old complaints, because so many of those complaints have been addressed and dealt with. More or less.

So the movement must begin issuing increasingly absurd accusations of abuse and inequality so that their followers' instinctive internal response to the wrongness and frivolity of those increasingly absurd accusations creates an adrenaline release in those followers which inspire, energize, organize and motivate them in a way the old, warn out (but much more truthful) arguments no longer possibly can.

It's not just feminism that has done this, and needs to do this, to continue onward forever.

But being equality friendly is 100% beneficial for men

Oh, totally. Too bad feminism abandoned that years ago.

As that perfect meme says: more rights for women doesn't mean less rights for men: it's not pie.

Yummy as pie can be, your foolish point has nothing to do with what we're saying. You're stereotyping us as classical misogynists making classical misogynistic points which have nothing to do with what we're saying. But you have to do that in order to dispense your pre-chewed PC soundbytes.

 

[Karin Schill]

Sorry to say this, but I find both of your replies quite sickening and appalling. And it's obvious that you don't have a clue what it's like being a woman in a man's world.

I agree with you. If this is ever going to stop men's attitude have to change. The objectification of women need to stop and men need to stand up in solidarity with the women and say that "this is not ok". They need to put their foot down!

However considering that we now have a President of the USA who feels that it's okay to "grab women by the p****" I am not surprised that men in the USA are not standing up for this cause. They don't understand the seriousness of problem and probably think it's ok to treat women like sex objects because their President does that too!

However, I have come across a few men that aren't so great. I have been sexually abused by two men at two different occasions. By two men that I trusted, that seemed great on the surface. Men that my family would never guess have crossed the line with me (I never told my parents because I felt too ashamed -- back then I didn't realize that it was the men that should have felt ashamed).

I'm sorry that has happened to you. *hugs*

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

I agree with you. If this is ever going to stop men's attitude have to change. The objectification of women need to stop and men need to stand up in solidarity with the women and say that "this is not ok". They need to put their foot down!

However considering that we now have a President of the USA who feels that it's okay to "grab women by the p****" I am not surprised that men in the USA are not standing up for this cause. They don't understand the seriousness of problem and probably think it's ok to treat women like sex objects because their President does that too!

But why is the sexual abuse and harassment of boys and men irrelevant??

What has to change is feminism's attitude that women are the good people, the loving people, the nurturing people, the victimized people. And that is incumbent upon men -- the bad and the good (if we're willing to admit there are any good ones) -- to genuflect and defer to women and let those women lead the way, then all the world would be a wondrous place.

Which is a lie.

Some women lie. Some men lie. Some women are raped and sexually harassed. Some men are raped and are sexually harassed. Men do most of the molesting, but not by as big a margin as we tend to think.

The world is a complicated place.

Most people, and most men, don't condone rape, for goodness sake. But if feminists refuse to care about what happens to men along those same lines, or concede that some women lie quite a lot about rape and harassment, and admit there are no easy answers like "men stand up in solidarity with the women" against rape and that non-raping men are the only things that can stop those rapists, then those feminists are really the ones disrespecting rape and sexual harassment victims.

Rose McGowan apparently took a pay off and stayed silent for years after "HW" assaulted her, when her going public might have exposed him and prevented subsequent victimization (although probably not)... I don't blame her for that. She was likely in a tough spot and thought taking the pay-off would prevent career damage... The problem I have with what she's been saying over the last couple of weeks is that she's now attacking men -- and other women, too -- for not being willing to take their own career risks regarding exposing Weinstein's behavior, when she wasn't either.

Again, I'm not blaming her for the choice she felt she had to make. But other people were apparently supposed to take the risk she didn't.

 

[Karin Schill]

But why is the sexual abuse and harassment of boys and men irrelevant??

I never said it was and if men want to share their stories in the hashtag I'd say bring them on. But I think they are less likely to do that because of the attitudes that exists around things like this. If a woman feels ashamed to admit she has been sexually abused or harassed I think a man would feel even more ashmed to admit it due to pre-existing values and attitudes in society.

 

[Willie Oleson]

if men want to share their stories in the hashtag I'd say bring them on

I get this funny "the more the merrier" feeling about this campaign. Surely we're not hoping for more abuse stories? Because that also means there are more victims.

I don't have a Facebook or twitter account so I don't know how it works or what it looks like.
I assume the victims are not anonymous, so, what happens after they joined this campaign? Is it the first step in dealing with the situation, psychologically and/or legally?
Do they get any help from whoever it is who started this campaign?

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

I never said it was and if men want to share their stories in the hashtag I'd say bring them on. But I think they are less likely to do that because of the attitudes that exists around things like this. If a woman feels ashamed to admit she has been sexually abused or harassed I think a man would feel even more ashmed to admit it due to pre-existing values and attitudes in society.

No, I didn't say you said they're irrelevant.

I get this funny "the more the merrier" feeling about this campaign. Surely we're not hoping for more abuse stories? Because that also means there are more victims.

I don't have a Facebook or twitter account so I don't know how it works or what it looks like.
I assume the victims are not anonymous, so, what happens after they joined this campaign? Is it the first step in dealing with the situation, psychologically and/or legally?
Do they get any help from whoever it is who started this campaign?

Dunno. But have a weird feeling this is going to turn into an interesting mess -- a bigger one somehow.

 

[Frank Underwood]

Sorry to say this, but I find both of your replies quite sickening and appalling. And it's obvious that you don't have a clue what it's like being a woman in a man's world.

What did you find so "sickening and appalling?" The fact that I said nobody deserves to be abused and that all abusers should be locked up? I doubt it. It must have been the fact that I pointed out the sins women have committed, and steered the conversation towards a more objective take of both genders. I forgot only women's issues matter.

No one has ever said that all men rape. No one even thinks that. So men who don't look down on women, men who don't make unwanted sexual advances on others, men who thinks all humans have the right to decide over their own body, men who respect women, men who are sickened when victims tell their stories of being abused etc etc -- guess what? No one is accusing you!! Don't take it personal when women tell their stories!! Just feel what is normal: complete and utter disgust that it is so often happening in the world. Disgust that so many humans feel that they can do whatever they want to other humans. Just react with the same disgust. That's all that is wanted & expected from you.

If you believe that, you obviously haven't seen the third wave feminism dreck that exists on the Internet.

And if that's all that's expected of us, why did you say "When is it time for men to discuss these issues with other men? When will the focus shift from the victims to the offenders?" Clearly, you think men need to educate each other on the issue, and that we allegedly focus more on the victims than the offenders. That's what makes me feel like we're looked down on and being condescended too. If we're not committing sexual assault or harassment, chances are we don't condone it and believe the offenders should be locked up.

Time and time again, statistics say that men are overly represented as offenders in criminal acts like rape, sexual abuse, sexual harrassment and sexual driven murder.

97% is the statistics in Sweden. 97% of all reported sexual offenses in Sweden are committed by men.

If a man is sexually abused by a woman, it's just as terrible. But guess what - it doesn't happen that often compared to the other way around. Saying otherwise is 100% bullshit!

So if a man being sexually abused by a woman is just as terrible, why can't we simply condemn the abuse and lock up the guilty offenders? Just because men are statistically more likely to commit sexual assault doesn't mean all men are inclined to do so. Unfortunately, that's how we're treated. Good men are being condemned for not speaking out or not saying enough. We're often condescended to and told that we need to "educate ourselves," as if we're unaware that sexual assault takes place.

Women who abuse or kill their kids, their husband, or take their spouse to the cleaners in a divorce aren't asked to hold a convention and condemn the scoundrels among them. Terrorism is often committed by Muslim extremists, but it's just as ridiculous when conservatives expect the peaceful Muslims to speak out against the bad ones. If they're not committing terrorism themselves, it should be a given that they don't support it. Good people are simply not responsible for the bad people in their ranks.

And I seriosly feel ill when you guys say "feminists" in such a way that you mean all feminists are the same. You hate it when some people say "men rape" instead of "some men rape" -- but you are guilty of the same thing when you write "feminists say".

Not really. We both specified third wave feminism, which is its own unique branch of feminism.

I am a proud feminist, but it does not mean that I feel that all men are potential sex offenders. I know plenty of men that are awesome, kind, fun and far above from using their power to force themselves on others. Most men I know are great guys.

However, I have come across a few men that aren't so great. I have been sexually abused by two men at two different occasions. By two men that I trusted, that seemed great on the surface. Men that my family would never guess have crossed the line with me (I never told my parents because I felt too ashamed -- back then I didn't realize that it was the men that should have felt ashamed).

Why it's men that should talk to these men? Well, it hasn't worked when women tell them off. These men who sexually abuse women don't respect women. Of course they aren't going to listen! But if other men step up more and be very vocal about it being horrible to use and abuse others, women might have a better chance.

I'm sorry that happened to you. Nobody should have to go through that.

Still, I don't see how being vocal against sexual abuse will change anything. How will it give women a better chance when you admitted the bad men won't listen anyway?

Statistics or no statistics, we're all human. As such, we're all capable of good things and unspeakable things. All victims of sexual assault should be treated with compassion and all offenders should be treated with disgust, regardless of gender. However, the truth is society takes female victims more seriously than male victims.

Remember ~90 years ago when women weren't trusted to vote? Women gathered together to fight for their right. But it wouldn't have mattered if powerful men didn't see the error in dismissing women - because we still wouldn't be allowed to vote if a majority of the men hadn't stepped up to invite us in.

But in that case, there was something men could do. In fact, they were the only ones who could make the change.

What can men do about guys like Weinstein, other than admit they're vile creatures who should be locked up?

Comparing sexual abuse to messy divorces isn't fair! If a woman can walk out of a marriage with more than 50% of the assets, then the laws are to blame. But we have clear laws against rape, abuse and harrassment. But if you willingly enter a marriage, you know fully well that if you end up divorcing, you will split the assets 50/50. That is no surprise. Besides, most women work today and brings in money as well. Women always earn less money for the exact same job as men though. Fairness?

My point is there is no such thing as absolute fairness. I'm not just talking about the splitting of assets either. There's also child custody, child support, and alimony.

I've already discussed how the wage gap narrative lacks nuance and context in another thread, so no point in discussing that again.

I am 100% against someone "kidnapping" the children from their other parent after a divorce - I can't understand why anyone wants to rob their child of a decent childhood unless the other patent is downright bad for the child. Vindictive a-holes who do that ought to be ashamed. This opinion comes from me - a feminist.

I agree with that.

If by uber-feministicky you mean that we strive for gender equality, then you are almost correct. There are far too many Swedes that are against feminism. Most of them are men who feel either threatened or feel that women should still be housewives, cook, clean and be sex kittens.

What about women who want to be housewives or sex kittens? God knows third wave feminists can't stand women like that.

Feminism is about equality, unless your're a woman who enjoys conventional gender roles. Then the third wavers will eat you alive.

But being equality friendly is 100% benefitial for men. Cause when women work...

• they too pay taxes that goes to health care, education, transporting, roads etc etc.
• men don't need to support the family alone, which means they can spend more money on their interests.
• Sweden has paid paternity leave from work, as well as paid maternity leave to make sure that men get the chance to bond with their children.
• men too excel in how to cook, clean, do laundry etc etc

As that perfect meme says: more rights for women doesn't mean less rights for men: it's not pie.

As a progressive, I support all of that. I'm just tired of a culture that portrays all women as virtuous victims and all men as potential predators.

 

[Frank Underwood]

I just saw someone review one of those "what men must do to appease women" articles, and it's a real gem. The title alone tells you all you need to know:

20 Things Men Can Do RTFN to Support Women, Beyond Just Literally Ceasing to Sexually Harass Us

That's right men, quit "mansplaining" all the time. Now shut up and listen as we forcefully tell you how to talk, act, vote, think, and behave in order to make us women happy. The author also makes many assumptions about how men act and think. It's all based on stereotypes, which is funny since third wave feminists hate feminine stereotypes with a passion.

The author also believes that her "good dude" friend could potentially be a bad dude, and that's based solely on the fact that he's a man. Interestingly enough, he reached out to her over the responses to "#metoo," and said it made him feel "paralyzed." Instead of appreciating the fact that her male friend was showing compassion for what these women have gone through, she instead told him to discuss those feelings with other men. Why? Because he shouldn't be "looking for affirmation or absolution or support from women."

I see. So she rejects a guy reaching out to her over the horror of sexual assault because her lack of reasoning skills lead her to believe he's looking for absolution or support? Why would he need absolution if he's not guilty of anything? Or is he automatically guilty simply because he's a man? And again, why should men only be having these conversations with other men? How should they go exactly? Guy #1: "Hey man, it's wrong to sexually harass and and assault women." Guy #2: "I did not know that. Thanks for setting me straight."

It's just so silly. Despite calling her friend a "good dude," there's no doubt in my mind that she's a misandrist. She finds it "ironic" that her male friend would ask a woman for support because of "all the burdens he and his cohort have asked women to bear." So yes, there are clearly feminists who blame men for all of their troubles, and they are repulsive.

Here's the bullshit article and the 20 things men can do "right the f**k now" according to the this fine specimen of shit:

A friend of mine, who is a man, reached out to me privately earlier today to say how paralyzed he felt seeing the flood of “Me too” posts on his Facebook wall, a phrase women are posting to indicate that they have been the victims of sexual harassment and assault. This is a good dude, as far as I know. (Here we are, now, having to say “as far as I know” about our good dude friends, because the truth is that probably plenty of guys are good dude friends unless you’re the one or two or fifteen women they crossed a line with, whether or not they realize they crossed a line. I haven’t been personally assaulted by this guy, I guess is the only thing I can really say. This is terrible for him and it’s also terrible for me. Everything is terrible.)

Anyway. I replied to him that I’m glad he’s having these realizations, but that he should be talking about these feelings to other men, not looking for affirmation or absolution or support from women, who are dealing with their own shit when it comes to men and their feelings about sexual harassment and assault. He’s a good dude, so he didn’t respond by telling me that if I was gonna be that way I’d just lost an ally, or whatever; he actually heard what I was saying and (I think) internalized it and realized the irony of asking a woman to emotionally support him as he processed all the burdens he and his cohort have asked women to bear.

Then I felt kind of bad. He was looking for things to do. Most of them are pretty obvious but maybe he needed the weight of a woman pointing those things out to him — maybe you do, too. So I shared a version of this list on Twitter. It is neither comprehensive nor without flaws. But if you’re a man unsure of what you can do right now to support women, instant changes you can make this very second in your daily life that will make life better for women (and, bonus, for men too!), here you go:

1. Overcome your own transphobia. Trans women are women. Trans men are men. Accept the lived truth of NB and GNC people, whether or not they are women.
2. Be pro-choice and be vocal in support of reproductive rights. (And generous! Give to the National Network of Abortion Funds!) Understand that the opposite of reproductive choice is forced childbearing.
3. Support subsidized birth control. Support women’s healthcare. Support women’s preventative healthcare. Support medical trials that include (or even prioritize) women.
4. Support nontaxed menstrual products. Ask your workplace if tampons and pads are free. If they’re not, advocate for them to be free. Get over any embarrassment you may have about menstruation.
5. Vocally advocate at your workplace for longer and more egalitarian paid parental leave, whether or not parenthood is part of your life. Advocate for lactation spaces. Advocate for on-site or subsidized childcare.
6. Tell your elected officials that you are a man who votes and you prioritize women’s issues when you decide who to vote for. Then actually prioritize women’s issues when you decide who to vote for. Understand that women’s issues are your issues.
7. Whenever you are in a group composed of only men (whether it’s social, work, church, or whatever) ask yourself why there are no women present. Then ask out loud why. Force an honest answer.
8. Cultivate genuine, intimate, nonsexual friendships with women.
9. Seek out women to be your heroes and mentors.
10. Any time you see a building, street, institution, etc. named for a man, see how long it takes you to spot another one named for a woman. (Any time you see one named for a woman, check to see if it’s on something oriented specifically toward women, children, or families. Odds are good it will be!)
11. Ask yourself what things you don’t do, for whatever reason, that you also think of as something women tend to do. (Sew? Send birthday cards? Care about skincare?) Try doing it for a while, just to see what it’s like to be a person who does the thing.
12. Talk less. In all spaces. At all times. At a lower volume.
13. When you need support, reach out to men as well as women. Work to be a person your friends of all genders can reach out to when they need support. Create a culture of openness around yourself.
14. Consume media marketed to women. Don’t perform your consumption.
15. Deprogram your beliefs about thinness being an optimal state of feminine beauty. Deprogram your beliefs that your desire matters in determining a woman’s worth.
16. Jerk off without porn for a while. EDIT: This really should be “Pay for your porn.” In particular, seek out (and pay for) porn that’s made by women, queer people, and people of color, and that’s produced ethically. Consume sexual culture as thoughtfully as you would consume any culture. (Thanks to Jillian and others for helping me reframe this.)
17. Learn about racism and intersectionality, and do everything you can to empower and amplify black women and NBWOC.
18. Detach yourself from straw-man definitions for hot-button issues (intersectionality, cultural appropriation, political correctness, preferred pronouns, etc.) and learn what they’re really about. Unpack the real meanings behind phrases like “SJW” and “feminazi.” Believe people when they say they’re in pain.
19. Prioritize kindness.
20. Befriend children.

There are infinitely more things you can do. This is just a start. Pick a few that seem easy — and at least one that seems hard — and start doing them today. You can start the rest tomorrow.

Source: https://medium.com/@hels/20-things-...lly-ceasing-to-sexually-harass-us-b06da5ff90f

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

I just saw someone review one of those "what men must do to appease women" articles, and it's a real gem. The title alone tells you all you need to know:

20 Things Men Can Do RTFN to Support Women, Beyond Just Literally Ceasing to Sexually Harass Us

That's right men, quit "mansplaining" all the time. Now shut up and listen as we forcefully tell you how to talk, act, vote, think, and behave in order to make us women happy. The author also makes many assumptions about how men act and think. It's all based on stereotypes, which is funny since third wave feminists hate feminine stereotypes with a passion.

The author also believes that her "good dude" friend could potentially be a bad dude, and that's based solely on the fact that he's a man. Interestingly enough, he reached out to her over the responses to "#metoo," and said it made him feel "paralyzed." Instead of appreciating the fact that her male friend was showing compassion for what these women have gone through, she instead told him to discuss those feelings with other men. Why? Because he shouldn't be "looking for affirmation or absolution or support from women."

I see. So she rejects a guy reaching out to her over the horror of sexual assault because her lack of reasoning skills lead her to believe he's looking for absolution or support? Why would he need absolution if he's not guilty of anything? Or is he automatically guilty simply because he's a man? And again, why should men only be having these conversations with other men? How should they go exactly? Guy #1: "Hey man, it's wrong to sexually harass and and assault women." Guy #2: "I did not know that. Thanks for setting me straight."

It's just so silly. Despite calling her friend a "good dude," there's no doubt in my mind that she's a misandrist. She finds it "ironic" that her male friend would ask a woman for support because of "all the burdens he and his cohort have asked women to bear." So yes, there are clearly feminists who blame men for all of their troubles, and they are repulsive.

Here's the bullshit article and the 20 things men can do "right the f**k now" according to the this fine specimen of shit:

A friend of mine, who is a man, reached out to me privately earlier today to say how paralyzed he felt seeing the flood of “Me too” posts on his Facebook wall, a phrase women are posting to indicate that they have been the victims of sexual harassment and assault. This is a good dude, as far as I know. (Here we are, now, having to say “as far as I know” about our good dude friends, because the truth is that probably plenty of guys are good dude friends unless you’re the one or two or fifteen women they crossed a line with, whether or not they realize they crossed a line. I haven’t been personally assaulted by this guy, I guess is the only thing I can really say. This is terrible for him and it’s also terrible for me. Everything is terrible.)

Anyway. I replied to him that I’m glad he’s having these realizations, but that he should be talking about these feelings to other men, not looking for affirmation or absolution or support from women, who are dealing with their own shit when it comes to men and their feelings about sexual harassment and assault. He’s a good dude, so he didn’t respond by telling me that if I was gonna be that way I’d just lost an ally, or whatever; he actually heard what I was saying and (I think) internalized it and realized the irony of asking a woman to emotionally support him as he processed all the burdens he and his cohort have asked women to bear.

Then I felt kind of bad. He was looking for things to do. Most of them are pretty obvious but maybe he needed the weight of a woman pointing those things out to him — maybe you do, too. So I shared a version of this list on Twitter. It is neither comprehensive nor without flaws. But if you’re a man unsure of what you can do right now to support women, instant changes you can make this very second in your daily life that will make life better for women (and, bonus, for men too!), here you go:

1. Overcome your own transphobia. Trans women are women. Trans men are men. Accept the lived truth of NB and GNC people, whether or not they are women.
2. Be pro-choice and be vocal in support of reproductive rights. (And generous! Give to the National Network of Abortion Funds!) Understand that the opposite of reproductive choice is forced childbearing.
3. Support subsidized birth control. Support women’s healthcare. Support women’s preventative healthcare. Support medical trials that include (or even prioritize) women.
4. Support nontaxed menstrual products. Ask your workplace if tampons and pads are free. If they’re not, advocate for them to be free. Get over any embarrassment you may have about menstruation.
5. Vocally advocate at your workplace for longer and more egalitarian paid parental leave, whether or not parenthood is part of your life. Advocate for lactation spaces. Advocate for on-site or subsidized childcare.
6. Tell your elected officials that you are a man who votes and you prioritize women’s issues when you decide who to vote for. Then actually prioritize women’s issues when you decide who to vote for. Understand that women’s issues are your issues.
7. Whenever you are in a group composed of only men (whether it’s social, work, church, or whatever) ask yourself why there are no women present. Then ask out loud why. Force an honest answer.
8. Cultivate genuine, intimate, nonsexual friendships with women.
9. Seek out women to be your heroes and mentors.
10. Any time you see a building, street, institution, etc. named for a man, see how long it takes you to spot another one named for a woman. (Any time you see one named for a woman, check to see if it’s on something oriented specifically toward women, children, or families. Odds are good it will be!)
11. Ask yourself what things you don’t do, for whatever reason, that you also think of as something women tend to do. (Sew? Send birthday cards? Care about skincare?) Try doing it for a while, just to see what it’s like to be a person who does the thing.
12. Talk less. In all spaces. At all times. At a lower volume.
13. When you need support, reach out to men as well as women. Work to be a person your friends of all genders can reach out to when they need support. Create a culture of openness around yourself.
14. Consume media marketed to women. Don’t perform your consumption.
15. Deprogram your beliefs about thinness being an optimal state of feminine beauty. Deprogram your beliefs that your desire matters in determining a woman’s worth.
16. Jerk off without porn for a while. EDIT: This really should be “Pay for your porn.” In particular, seek out (and pay for) porn that’s made by women, queer people, and people of color, and that’s produced ethically. Consume sexual culture as thoughtfully as you would consume any culture. (Thanks to Jillian and others for helping me reframe this.)
17. Learn about racism and intersectionality, and do everything you can to empower and amplify black women and NBWOC.
18. Detach yourself from straw-man definitions for hot-button issues (intersectionality, cultural appropriation, political correctness, preferred pronouns, etc.) and learn what they’re really about. Unpack the real meanings behind phrases like “SJW” and “feminazi.” Believe people when they say they’re in pain.
19. Prioritize kindness.
20. Befriend children.

There are infinitely more things you can do. This is just a start. Pick a few that seem easy — and at least one that seems hard — and start doing them today. You can start the rest tomorrow.

Source: https://medium.com/@hels/20-things-...lly-ceasing-to-sexually-harass-us-b06da5ff90f

Hysterical. They sure live inside a bubble, those girls. An indignant, lactating, ovulating bubble.

Gynocentrism, literally, it would seem.

 

[Frank Underwood]

I agree with you. If this is ever going to stop men's attitude have to change. The objectification of women need to stop and men need to stand up in solidarity with the women and say that "this is not ok". They need to put their foot down!

Our attitude is not the problem. We already know that sexual assault is wrong, and we do support those who've been victimized.

The problem stems from the feminists who think we're oblivious to the problem, or that we have some super power to stop it.

The other problem with third wave feminists is their constant demand that men prioritize their issues. We must conform to think, act, and talk how they tell us too. We must condemn sexual assault against women. We must stop objectifying women. We must never hit a woman. As if women are the only people on Earth capable of being victimized. And truth be told, many feminists are dismissive of male victims because they're not a part of their demographic. The particularly nasty ones even mockingly drink from cups that say "male tears."

And as for objectifying women, a female anti-feminist on YouTube did a video about how Cosmopolitan is against objectifying women, yet showed off male boners.

However considering that we now have a President of the USA who feels that it's okay to "grab women by the p****" I am not surprised that men in the USA are not standing up for this cause. They don't understand the seriousness of problem and probably think it's ok to treat women like sex objects because their President does that too!

You caught us. We all have a penis like Trump, therefore we all think it's okay to sexually harass and assault women. We hold rallies and brag about our escapades all the time.

And I wonder why more men don't speak up when so many feminists clearly think we're all a bunch of dumb apes who lack self control and empathy.

 

[Frank Underwood]

Hysterical. They sure live inside a bubble, those girls. An indignant, lactating, ovulating bubble.

And that bubble is yet another thing men are criticized for trying to penetrate.

Too soon?

 

[Ome]

And it's obvious that you don't have a clue what it's like being a woman in a man's world

Could the same be said for you?

That it's obvious that you don't have a clue what it's like being a man in a world where someone quotes this "When is it time for men to discuss these issues with other men"?

And I seriosly feel ill when you guys say "feminists" in such a way that you mean all feminists are the same.

I don't feel ill, but I do feel like you're belittling men when you imply all men need to stand up and speak for the victims of abuse. It comes across like you are saying no man speaks up against this.





Times are changing Emelee, life is evolving all the time. Over here in the UK we have had some of the biggest sex scandal stories to come out of the 70s and 80s where it was seen as okay to abuse boys and girls by some of our countries respected celebrities, be it radio DJs or TV presenters. No one challenged these guys at the time because they felt no one would listen and that's already been proven. What has happened is horrific and the perpetrators are being punished. It certainly isn't over, but at least there are signs of this stopping within large corporations.

One thing that needs to be noted - You will never wipe of sexual abuse any more than you could wipe out killers and drug pushers. Yes, some men are pure evil and vile, but guess what? Some women are also evil and vile.



You shouldn't feel appalled or sickened by the replies in this topic, what you should do is try and understand the points others are making and look closer to how your view is coming across.

However considering that we now have a President of the USA who feels that it's okay to "grab women by the p****" I am not surprised that men in the USA are not standing up for this cause. They don't understand the seriousness of problem and probably think it's ok to treat women like sex objects because their President does that too!

Just to note Karin, not every man in the US voted for Trump, nor does every man in the US not understand and acknowledge the problem, any more than they this it's okay to treat women like sex objects.






















Just because there is a bad apple in the fruit basket, doesn't mean that all the fruits are bad.

 

[Emelee]

The rant against feminism amongst men is horrible, and it's horrible because they don't even understand feminism. I have never actually met a feminist woman who hates men, or a feminist woman who thinks women are better than men. Where are these people in real life???

The feminist goal has NOT been reached. No country has ever reached equality. Of the world's 195 countries, 195 are strong or soft patriartic countries. The man is the norm, and the women is not. It has been established that women get worse deals when buying cars. It has been established that women get worse health care. Far more men are choosen for board membership than women. Women don't earn as much money, even though women in a number of countries have longer educations. So how can feminism have reached the goal? We are not equal.

Nor are we equal when it comes to sexual crimes. Men are overly representative there as well.

And the ONLY way for this to ever change is if men gather and say "enough is enough - we have to change this". Cause only the people who have the power can give some of it away. Women can't take power, we must ask for it.

Every time I hear that feminism is crap, evil or delusional, I get seriously mad. Either they don't know what the real goal is (which is understandable if they have only heard it being bashed) - or they know what the goal is, but just feel that women shouldn't have the same rights.

It's the exact same thing with racism. Only the white people on earth can give the black people power. We abolished slavery. But blacks are still being treated worse than whites. And that's on all of us - even if we are racists or not. Meaning that it's my frickin responsibility to step up whenever I hear something racist or see someone being mistreated because of their skin color. I am obliged to act on it or speak up because it's just plain wrong - and because as a white person, I am part of the previlaged group.

Social constructions are created by human beings to tell everyone how one is supposed to look, act and think. Long ago, white men decided that if you are a white Christian man, then you are ranked the highest. And those below you are not worth as much, therefore they can be your slaves or victims. It was ok to own people, black people. And treat them horribly and force them to work for you. All because you had the power and they didn't.


When men excuse themselves by saying "not all men rape", they just don't see the big picture!!!! So I suggest you look back. Not all white people owned slaves either. But it was every bit their problem too that this hierarchy continued to exist. They didn't side with the blacks, against slave owners, until the slaves started to demand being liberated and treated equal. When the pressure got too big, the whites finally gave in and abolished slavery. Blacks got treated much better. But are blacks treated the same as whites today? Absolutely not!!!

The hierarchy is still there.

And that is what I mean when I say that men has a responsibility here, no matter if they are rapists or appalled by rapists. Social structures are still having us unequal, and only a change in social structions can help. And the only way that women can get the same respect is if the men of the world stand up for everyones right to be treated the same. And women has to follow through and respect men in the same way once they reach the same level.


Boys get raped too - but in many cases, it's men that rapes them. It is 100% just as horrible, and should never happen. But keep in mind that it's seldom women who rapes.


Here are some horrific statistics for the UN:

• It is estimated that 35% of women worldwide have experienced either physical and/or sexual intimate partner violence or sexual violence by a non-partner at some point in their lives. However, some national studies show that up to 70% of women have experienced physical and/or sexual violence from an intimate partner in their lifetime. (Sexual harrassment, sexual bullying or "innocent" groping is not counted as physical or sexual violence).
  
  
• 43% of women in the 28 European Union Member States have experienced some form of psychological violence by an intimate partner in their lifetime. (Keep in mind, 43% is only the number of reported violence)
  
  
• It is estimated that of all women who were the victims of homicide globally in 2012, almost half were killed by intimate partners or family members, compared to less than 6% of men killed in the same year
  
  
• More than 25% of women in Washington DC, have experienced some form of sexual harassment on public transportation, according to a survey conducted in 2016
  
  
• Worldwide, almost 750 million women and girls alive today were married before their 18thbirthday. Child marriage is more common in West and Central Africa, where over 4 in 10 girls were married before age 18, and about 1 in 7 were married or in union before age 15.
  
  
• Around 120 million girls worldwide have experienced forced intercourse or other forced sexual acts at some point in their lives. By far the most common perpetrators of sexual violence against girls are current or former husbands, partners or boyfriends. (Again, 120 million girls only represent the reported cases).
  
  
• At least 200 million women and girls alive today have undergone female genital mutilation in the 30 countries with representative data on prevalence. In most of these countries, the majority of girls were cut before age 5.
  
  
• Women and girls account for 71% of all human trafficking victims detected globally.
  
  
• 10% of women in the European Union report having experienced cyber-harassment since the age of 15 (including having received unwanted, offensive sexually explicit emails or SMS messages, or offensive, inappropriate advances on social networking sites). The risk is highest among young women between 18 and 29 years of age
  
  
• An estimated 246 million girls and boys experience school-related violence every year and one in four girls say that they never feel comfortable using school latrines, according to a survey on youth conducted across four regions. The extent and forms of school-related violence that girls and boys experience differ, but evidence suggests that girls are at greater risk of sexual violence, harassment and exploitation. In addition to the resulting adverse psychological, sexual and reproductive health consequences, school-related gender-based violence is a major obstacle to universal schooling and the right to education for girls [11].
• 23% of female undergraduate university students reported having experienced sexual assault or sexual misconduct in a survey across 27 universities in the United States in 2015.
  
  
• 82% of women parliamentarians who participated in a study conducted by the Inter-parliamentary Union in 39 countries across 5 regions reported having experienced some form of psychological violence while serving their terms. Psychological violence was defined as remarks, gestures and images of a sexist or humiliating sexual nature made against them or threats and/or mobbing to which they might have been subjected. 44% of them reported having received death, rape, assault or abduction threats towards them or their families

Who on earth can read such statistics and still feel that feminism is evil?

Every single person who isn't a rapist, who isn't a sexual predator, who isn't a groping harrassing person needs to talk about these issues - be open about there being a massive problem, and fight it. Cause lord knows, the rapists, predators, harrassers and scumbags of the earth won't suddenly wake up one morning and realize "hey, what I am doing is appalling, and I need to stop this at once". THAT is why it's on the rest of us. We want to decrease the number of people being subjected to these things, preferably down to 0.

And guess what -- women have tried. But we can't do it alone. We NEED you guys who aren't rapists, who aren't sexual bullies to help us.
This isn't only on us. We have told our stories time and time and time and time again. And NOTHING happens.