The establishment's deliberate perversion of the gay rights movement

Snarky Oracle!

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Of course, Douglas Murray is a conservative elitist, but he's usually good for a few good bitchy lines (like, "love is love, love wins, especially when you're beating up lesbians...")

 
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Angela Channing

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But wokeness has been introduced to sabotage the left. And by taking the bait, you're helping the right do that to the left.
We disagree on this. I don't think supporting human rights is "woke" whatever that means nor do I think it sabotages the left. I think supporting human rights is part of what being left is.

But personal beliefs are being pushed on children. I've seen parents fully support the transitioning of children as young as five!

Should we also let minors smoke or own a gun before the age of 18 because they want to? Should we let them drink alcohol before the age of 21 if they want? What if they want to have sex at 15? Should parents let them affirm all of these decisions before the age of consent because it's what they want, even if they may end up regretting it later on?

Snarky's right. Nobody's pushing for insensitivity towards teens who are questioning their gender identity, but there are ways of expressing that identity without surgery and puberty blockers. Those are permanent solutions that should be left to adults. Most adolescents don't fully understand the complexities of sexuality and gender identity.
There are extreme views on both sides of this argument and I can't imagine there are many parents that want their children to transition at age 5. There may be some who support giving their children the time and space to accept their gender identity when they are young but that is a very different thing from wanting them to transition. As I said previously, people shouldn't force their opinions on trans teens, children should be allowed to develop their gender identity in their own time.

No, of course we shouldn't let minors smoke or own a gun but I don't know of any cases of children committing suicide or suffering from chronic mental health issues because they can't smoke or have a gun. The same can't be said for children who are denied the right to live their lives according to the gender they identify with and this doesn't have to involve any medical intervention, normally is would just be some social transitioning to different degrees depending on the individual.

Some girls are tomboys and some boys like putting on their mother's high heels. Does that mean they were assigned the wrong gender? That's the problem with letting children make decisions for themselves before they fully understand what they're getting into. If it's causing them mental health problems, then their parents should absolutely have them speak to a professional. However, altering their genitals and hindering their development is not my idea of "necessary medical intervention." Parents should be supportive and understanding of their children, but the bottom line is some decisions are best left to adults. Would you hand over your car keys to a ten year old?
I'm sure it wasn't your intention but this is a trivialisation of a serious and sensitive issue. Girls that are tomboys or boys who like playing with their mother's clothes is a completely different issue from children who are questioning their gender identity. Further, there is a process and children don't immediately go from questioning their gender identity to having gender transitioning surgery. The first stage would be to receive counselling and this can go on for many years to help children make the choices that are right for them.
 

Frank Underwood

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We disagree on this. I don't think supporting human rights is "woke" whatever that means nor do I think it sabotages the left. I think supporting human rights is part of what being left is.
Woke has been explained many times. It goes beyond human rights and elevates the marginalized to the point of treating them like a special and protected class. The woke use race, sexuality, and gender identity as defining characteristics that act as a shield. If you criticize their views on anything, you're a bigot that needs to be shamed. They demand conformity, and any deviation makes you the enemy. It wasn't always that way, but the disagreement on transitioning children is a prime example of what I'm talking about.

There are extreme views on both sides of this argument and I can't imagine there are many parents that want their children to transition at age 5.
This is just one example. The father mentions taking his child to a "gender clinic:"

Life as parent to a trans child ️‍⚧️ #shorts #sacconejolys #trans #lgbtq - YouTube

There may be some who support giving their children the time and space to accept their gender identity when they are young but that is a very different thing from wanting them to transition. As I said previously, people shouldn't force their opinions on trans teens, children should be allowed to develop their gender identity in their own time.

No, of course we shouldn't let minors smoke or own a gun but I don't know of any cases of children committing suicide or suffering from chronic mental health issues because they can't smoke or have a gun. The same can't be said for children who are denied the right to live their lives according to the gender they identify with and this doesn't have to involve any medical intervention, normally is would just be some social transitioning to different degrees depending on the individual.
As I said before, I support children being allowed to express their identity in non-medically invasive ways. Once they're 18, I support their right to fully transition if they wish.

There are many reasons why teens feel depressed and suicidal. That's what counselling's for. Teens need time to process their emotions and feelings about their body.

I'm sure it wasn't your intention but this is a trivialisation of a serious and sensitive issue. Girls that are tomboys or boys who like playing with their mother's clothes is a completely different issue from children who are questioning their gender identity. Further, there is a process and children don't immediately go from questioning their gender identity to having gender transitioning surgery. The first stage would be to receive counselling and this can go on for many years to help children make the choices that are right for them.
I know for a fact that there are parents who think boys and girls who don't adhere to traditional gender norms are likely trans. That's why modern day trans activists are often called groomers. It's unfortunate because there are responsible trans adults just trying to live their lives, and even they've called out those pushing an agenda on children.

If children are legitimately questioning their own gender identity, then I fully support them speaking to a counsellor about it. I just think the final step of surgery and hormone therapy should be reserved for adults. I see nothing wrong with waiting until a child is 18 and becomes fully responsible for their life. You said yourself that there's a process they have to go through, so there's no need to rush it. I just don't think adults should nudge them in any particular direction, which some are doing for clout on social media.
 
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Jimmy Todd

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In my observations, the so called "woke movement" began as a good thing in which people became more aware of the aspects of gender that are social constructs and racism can be systemic as well as overt. These are perfectly valid conversations to have. However, as @Snarky Oracle and @Frank Underwood have eloquently pointed out, the movement has become so extreme that anything but total adherence is demonized as "hate speech." The irony is that the movement that promulgated not being too rigidly bound by conventional standards now demands total conformity to its very narrowly defined standards. What was Nietzsche's warning about when fighting monsters be careful one does not become a monster?
 
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Frank Underwood

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In my observations, the so called "woke movement" began as a good thing in which people became more aware of the aspects of gender that are social constructs and racism can be systemic as well as overt. These are perfectly valid conversations to have. However, as @Snarky Oracle and @Frank Underwood have eloquently pointed out, the movement has become so extreme that anything but total adherence is demonized as "hate speech." The irony is that the movement that promulgated not being too rigidly bound by conventional standards now demands total conformity to its very narrowly defined standards. What was Nietzsche's warning about when fighting monsters be careful one does not become a monster?
:10:
 

Frank Underwood

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Here's a result of the arrogance of the woke. This is what happens when people say things like "Surely, parents and teachers have a better idea of what their trans children need and want than do anti-trans activists." Not only does this mindset deny the existence of self-serving manipulators and clout chasers, it also assumes that people who care about the well being of children are nothing more than "anti-trans activists." Arrogance and a sense of moral superiority are hallmarks of the woke. When presented with evidence that their hardline/holier than thou views aren't always best, they usually deflect, deny, or flat out ignore it and go on pretending that their perspective is the "correct" one.

Woman pressured into breast removal at 13 under ‘erroneous belief’ she was transgender: lawsuit​


A California woman whose breasts were removed when she was 13 years old because she thought she was transgender is now suing the doctors and hospital that oversaw the procedure — claiming they were in it for the money.

Kayla Lovdahl, now 18, says she was pushed to “entertain the erroneous belief that she was transgender” at age 11, after being exposed to online influencers, according to the lawsuit she filed in California State Court against Kaiser Foundation Hospitals and four doctors.

“…they essentially handed Kayla the prescription pad, and allowed her naïve, emotional, childish, rollercoaster of feelings to dictate the so-called ‘treatment’ that she would receive,” according to the June 14 court papers.

Not knowing what to do when their daughter claimed she was a boy, her parents sought out help from medical professionals who quickly affirmed the girl’s idea that she was transgender, Lovdahl said.

By the age of 12 she was on hormone blockers and testosterone without a proper psychological evaluation, Lovdahl claims in the legal filing.

Lovdahl underwent a single 75-minute transition evaluation, she alleged.

” ‘It is better to have a live son than a dead daughter,’ ” the physicians allegedly told the family.

The procedures were “ideological and profit-driven medical abuse,” Lovdahl now maintains.

She detransitioned at age 17 and now feels the doctors were negligent, calling her earlier belief that she was transgender “mistaken.”

“Kayla was not transgender and was not a person that any reasonable physician could ascertain would permanently maintain a transgender identity,” Lovdahl claims in the suit.

Her mental health issues should have raised red flags for the doctors, Lovdahl said, pointing to medical studies that she said show young girls’ mental health is not often improved by transitioning.

“The vast majority of cross-gender identified children, if medically treated in early adolescence, risk regretting the decision after they are old enough to realize their losses,” Lovdahl said.

Lovdahl additionally accused the hospital and doctors of not providing her and her parents proper “informed consent,” which would have included in-depth therapy, something she said never happened.

The procedures were “an insane form of child abuse,” lawyers for Lovdahl, who also uses the pseudonym Layla Jane, said in a statement.

“We believe cases like this are the best way to stop them, especially in liberal states like California, where reckless ideologues are pushing this radical agenda,” said attorney Charles Limandri.

Lovdahl, who is seeking unspecified damages, claims the procedures left her with “deep physical and emotional wounds and severe regrets.”

Kaiser did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

Source: https://nypost.com/2023/06/17/woman...moving-her-breasts-when-she-was-13-years-old/
 
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CeeCee72

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My child is non binary. I don't feel these sorts of conversations to be very useful. The bottom line for me is that these kids, their families, and their doctors are in the best positions to make decisions. The problem for me isn't about "wokeism" or "bigotry." The problem for me is that WHO MY CHILD is - how they CAME INTO the world has become so much fodder for the cannons in these political culture wars.

These cooperations are incredibly disingenuous in the supposed support of the LBGTQ+ community - that's true. For all of them willing to put rainbows of beer cans and t-shirts, they support politicians who would legislate my child out of existence. Having said that, I also get some personal joy every time I see a true bigot's head explode over seeing a damn rainbow.
 

Angela Channing

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My child is non binary. I don't feel these sorts of conversations to be very useful. The bottom line for me is that these kids, their families, and their doctors are in the best positions to make decisions. The problem for me isn't about "wokeism" or "bigotry." The problem for me is that WHO MY CHILD is - how they CAME INTO the world has become so much fodder for the cannons in these political culture wars.

These cooperations are incredibly disingenuous in the supposed support of the LBGTQ+ community - that's true. For all of them willing to put rainbows of beer cans and t-shirts, they support politicians who would legislate my child out of existence. Having said that, I also get some personal joy every time I see a true bigot's head explode over seeing a damn rainbow.
I can image how difficult it must be at times for parents having their children used as a political football when all they want to do is protect them, love them and support them in being their authentic selves. We should always be mindful that there are real people and real lives that this impacts on.

But what if the child bitterly regrets those decisions once they're 18?
Overwhelmingly they don't. Only about 1% of of people who transition express having regrets after they have done it. I think it's around 98% of teens who take puberty blockers as the first stage of their transition journey decide to go on to taking hormone therapy, the next stage in the process.
 

Frank Underwood

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The problem is we're ultimately talking about children who are going through a period of self-discovery. What they identify as today may not be the same tomorrow.

Emotionally supporting children through their journey is one thing, but parents and doctors approving medical procedures (sometimes for clout and money) is another.

If the child grows up regretting those decisions, then I certainly support their right to sue. There are many decisions we don't let children make, and for good reason.

Even if children who regret their decision are in the minority, their lives are no less important.

These cooperations are incredibly disingenuous in the supposed support of the LBGTQ+ community - that's true. For all of them willing to put rainbows of beer cans and t-shirts, they support politicians who would legislate my child out of existence. Having said that, I also get some personal joy every time I see a true bigot's head explode over seeing a damn rainbow.
A rainbow is just a rainbow to me. Symbols are just a way for people to virtue signal their values, and it's often done in a disingenuous way like you pointed out.
 
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Snarky Oracle!

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The problem is we're ultimately talking about children who are going through a period of self-discovery. What they identify as today may not be the same tomorrow.

Emotionally supporting children through their journey is one thing, but parents and doctors approving medical procedures (sometimes for clout and money) is another.

If the child grows up regretting those decisions, then I certainly support their right to sue. There are many decisions we don't let children make, and for good reason.

Trans-regret stories are verboten and even considered 'transphobia'.

Most of the kids who go through gender dysphoria turn out to be gay by the time the reach adulthood. And most who want to change their sex at age 10 no longer feel that way when they're 18 (so I'm sure that "1%" statistic is wildly reliable).
 

CeeCee72

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There was no transition involved in my child identifying as non-binary. It was years of self-discovery. They went through a period where they dressed and acted as a male, and times when they dressed and acted very feminine and as a female. It took a lot of patience and love and a lot of medical and mental health visits to understand what was happening to them and who they are. Having said that, I do know children who identify is trans. In those cases the parents have worked very closely with medical and mental health professionals to do what is in the best interest of the child. And believe it or not most of these parents are not running around talking about puberty blockers and transition surgery with joy. This is a painful experience for any family to go through. And it's really no one's business other than the families. I do think part of the problem though is that we can't have honest discussions about any of these issues because people on both sides are so dug in their personal beliefs that they don't even bother to listen to what the other side is saying. But most of these people out there having these arguments haven't been touched by the very real situation of having a child who is questioning their sexual identity. And in my opinion, those are really the only people whose opinions are valid to me.
 

Angela Channing

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There was no transition involved in my child identifying as non-binary. It was years of self-discovery. They went through a period where they dressed and acted as a male, and times when they dressed and acted very feminine and as a female. It took a lot of patience and love and a lot of medical and mental health visits to understand what was happening to them and who they are. Having said that, I do know children who identify is trans. In those cases the parents have worked very closely with medical and mental health professionals to do what is in the best interest of the child. And believe it or not most of these parents are not running around talking about puberty blockers and transition surgery with joy. This is a painful experience for any family to go through. And it's really no one's business other than the families. I do think part of the problem though is that we can't have honest discussions about any of these issues because people on both sides are so dug in their personal beliefs that they don't even bother to listen to what the other side is saying. But most of these people out there having these arguments haven't been touched by the very real situation of having a child who is questioning their sexual identity. And in my opinion, those are really the only people whose opinions are valid to me.
:gp:

Your personal experience speaks louder than anything else said on this thread. Thank you for your posts on this subject.
 

Snarky Oracle!

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Your personal experience speaks louder than anything else said on this thread. Thank you for your posts on this subject.

Oh, don't worry. No one speaks louder than you.

There was no transition involved in my child identifying as non-binary. It was years of self-discovery. They went through a period where they dressed and acted as a male, and times when they dressed and acted very feminine and as a female. It took a lot of patience and love and a lot of medical and mental health visits to understand what was happening to them and who they are. Having said that, I do know children who identify is trans. In those cases the parents have worked very closely with medical and mental health professionals to do what is in the best interest of the child. And believe it or not most of these parents are not running around talking about puberty blockers and transition surgery with joy. This is a painful experience for any family to go through. And it's really no one's business other than the families. I do think part of the problem though is that we can't have honest discussions about any of these issues because people on both sides are so dug in their personal beliefs that they don't even bother to listen to what the other side is saying. But most of these people out there having these arguments haven't been touched by the very real situation of having a child who is questioning their sexual identity. And in my opinion, those are really the only people whose opinions are valid to me.

In that case, you're not talking about the transmania trend that we are. Of course children who feel that they are in the body of the opposite sex -- or no sex -- should be loved and supported.
 

CeeCee72

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In that case, you're not talking about the transmania trend that we are. Of course children who feel that they are in the body of the opposite sex -- or no sex -- should be loved and supported.
Here's a thing though, it's not about being loved and supported. From my perspective knowing children who identify as trans and their families, it's not a political matter - it's a medical matter. Politicians ought to stay out of it and people shouldn't be posting their opinions of it on social media when they have not been directly impacted by it. These families deserve the opportunity to make their own decisions with their health care providers. They don't need politicians to tell them what kind of treatment their children should or should not get. And they don't need community activist lining up and calling their kids deviance or mentally ill simply because they don't understand the real medical issues being addressed by these families. And that's why I think the discussions are not helpful. If no one in this discussion has any experience with a trans person in their life again I'm telling you I just find their opinion to be irrelevant.
 

Frank Underwood

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It seems some people in this thread also find the personal experiences of detransitioners irrelevant.

Also, having an opinion on something doesn't require a personal connection to it. In fact, having a personal connection to something often comes with its own biases.

When it comes to transitioning, I don't see why it has to happen before the age of 18. I've seen full blown narcissists on social media who disgustingly use the transitioning of a child to make themselves the center of attention. These are the people I'm directing my wrath at, not children who are experiencing genuine gender identity issues. I believe parents should emotionally support their child through it and have them see the appropriate professionals. However, I still believe medical and surgical intervention before the age of 18 is irresponsible. Removing a girl's breasts at 13 is insane to me, and I absolutely believe her that she was pushed into it by doctors looking for a quick payday.

It's easy to say the decision to transition should be between the child, her parents, and medical professionals until the child turns 18 and decides to get the lawyers involved.
 
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Gabriel Maxwell

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I do think part of the problem though is that we can't have honest discussions about any of these issues because people on both sides are so dug in their personal beliefs that they don't even bother to listen to what the other side is saying. But most of these people out there having these arguments haven't been touched by the very real situation of having a child who is questioning their sexual identity. And in my opinion, those are really the only people whose opinions are valid to me.
“It’s a problem we can’t talk to each other, because people are dug into their own opinions and not listening to others. By the way, certain people’s opinions have zero value to me.”

And all within the same paragraph, lol. This is 2020s trans activism and wokeism as a whole in a nutshell.

Pretending to be loving, caring & open-minded people, but only as long as you provide mindless nodding and unconditional affirmation. Otherwise you’re ‘cancelled’.
 
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