"You call this plain clothes…?" (Re)watching Cagney & Lacey

Mel O'Drama

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Thanks for posting.

Anytime, JG. I stumbled on it quite by accident while looking for something Rosie O'Neill related, and ended up watching the entire thing.


Sharon Gless looks well doesn't she?

She does indeed. I may have to look out for the new book she mentioned.

Tyne seemed very happy as well. And much calmer than I would be the night before a huge move.

The choice of clips was nice, and I love how specific some of their memories are.


It was nice how fondly Martin Kove remembers the show. I'll always remember that beefy torso from the opening credits...

Yes - his appearance was a nice touch. And even though we didn't get the torso, it was fun to be reminded of his Russian dancing. It's just a shame Carl Lumbly wasn't able to be there, as a Petrie/Isbecki reunion would have been fun.

Troy Slaten was a nice surprise as well.
 

Mel O'Drama

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This is quite cute. Nothing earth shattering, but there's a fun bit of business with Sharon pretending to be annoyed at Tyne's indulgent daytime soap story.

It's also slightly surreal to see them interacting with actors from British soaps:

 

Fin Jordan

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THANK GOD IT'S MONDAY

There are some perfectly acceptable possible explanations for the different date:
  1. Lacey's memory is slightly off.
  2. She's recalls it was somewhere round that time but is just throwing out a specific date for fun.
  3. In Cagney & Lacey time, Pretzels did actually take place on 19 February.
  4. Wikipedia is wrong

I'm happy to believe it's any one or combination of the above, but since 19 February 1983 actually was a Saturday and Lacey had just been sorting her paperwork, I'm going to choose option 3 as the most likely.
I usually read rather than reply, but I thought I'd register here just to come in and help clear this mystery up. According to the production schedule, Feb 19, 1983 would have been the Saturday of the week they filmed the episode "Let Them Eat Pretzels." So I could see a crew member or writer going after that date when preparing this script and looking at film dates rather than air dates. But at least they got the Saturday part right, I guess. So I suppose #3 would be correct-- in their time, even though theoretically they should have finished filming by Friday of that week, the correct Saturday would have been the 19th of Feb.
 

Mel O'Drama

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I usually read rather than reply, but I thought I'd register here just to come in and help clear this mystery up.

Welcome, Fin. It's great to have you on board and hopefully you might enjoy posting some more now you're registered.



According to the production schedule, Feb 19, 1983 would have been the Saturday of the week they filmed the episode "Let Them Eat Pretzels." So I could see a crew member or writer going after that date when preparing this script and looking at film dates rather than air dates. But at least they got the Saturday part right, I guess. So I suppose #3 would be correct-- in their time, even though theoretically they should have finished filming by Friday of that week, the correct Saturday would have been the 19th of Feb.

That's amazing insight. Thanks for clearing up a mystery and restoring my faith in Lacey's memory. Even though it was a couple of days out in this case, it goes to show the attention to detail that went into the show

Out of interest, did you see the production schedule online somewhere or is it hidden away somewhere?
 

Fin Jordan

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Welcome, Fin. It's great to have you on board and hopefully you might enjoy posting some more now you're registered.





That's amazing insight. Thanks for clearing up a mystery and restoring my faith in Lacey's memory. Even though it was a couple of days out in this case, it goes to show the attention to detail that went into the show

Out of interest, did you see the production schedule online somewhere or is it hidden away somewhere?
I did see it online a couple of years ago, and I made the mistake of jotting some notes for only some of the seasons and what I needed at the time and not bookmarking the location. I thought I remembered it was on the official website but I've looked for it again since and haven't been able to find it (unless it's since been removed from there-- and that could at least explain why I might not have bookmarked it, because that would be the first place I would look!). But it's so unlike me not to bookmark something like that. I did get a new desktop a few years back so maybe it was on the old one. Either way, I haven't found one since. I'd like to find one again though!
 

Mel O'Drama

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I did see it online a couple of years ago, and I made the mistake of jotting some notes for only some of the seasons and what I needed at the time and not bookmarking the location. I thought I remembered it was on the official website but I've looked for it again since and haven't been able to find it (unless it's since been removed from there-- and that could at least explain why I might not have bookmarked it, because that would be the first place I would look!). But it's so unlike me not to bookmark something like that. I did get a new desktop a few years back so maybe it was on the old one. Either way, I haven't found one since. I'd like to find one again though!

Oh, that's frustrating, and the same kind of thing has happened for me before now as well.

But really impressive that you have some notes jotted down or at least can remember some of what you read.
 

Fin Jordan

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AMERICAN DREAM

On top of this, Harv decides they should look at houses, and spontaneously puts an offer in on one. Incidentally, donning a suit has had more than a superficial effect on Harv. I noticed during this episode, whenever he used his wife's name he called her Mary Beth, rather than Mairy Bet. Maybe someone noticed that was getting a little annoying. Here's hoping it sticks.
Interesting take on the accent! And interesting to know that is the way it played overseas. Both "Meddy Bet" and "Haaahv" have northeastern US / New York accents, Mary Beth's being thicker than Harvey's, and a Boston/NY mix (which Tyne Daly has said she purposely mixed because she always felt Mary Beth grew up in Boston before moving to NY) and Harvey's having possibly a regional ethnic (Polish?) influence to it as well. I guess we love our regional accents here in the US because here, we would never want that to stick. I remember in season 7 when Tyne played it a little loose with MB's accent, the fans here in the US just about pitched a fit over it! :lol:
 
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Seaviewer

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As I also posted in the Knots Landing forum, I spotted Stephen Macht in an episode of Doubt over the weekend playing a retired prosecutor testifying at a parole hearing.
I'd love to see him in my dream final C&L movie. With David and Christine both being retired maybe their political discussions would be a little less heated. Perhaps they've reached an accomodation like Diane and Kurt on The Good Fight.
 

Mel O'Drama

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Interesting take on the accent! And interesting to know that is the way it played overseas.

Oh, I'm sure a lot of international viewers felt the same way. Actually, I do have a fondness for regional accents of all kinds (despite being a small country, we have a zillion of them here in the UK) and I liked both Mary Beth and Harv's. As I remember, my main bugbear was just with Harv's pronunciation of Mary Beth's name as I sometimes felt John Karlen overdid it. I might feel differently if I rewatched it today.


I remember in season 7 when Tyne played it a little loose with MB's accent, the fans here in the US just about pitched a fit over it! :lol:

Oh my. I'm not sure I even noticed this. I love that C&L fans are as fiercely protective of elements of their favourite show as the actresses were (and even more than the actress in this case, it seems).


I spotted Stephen Macht in an episode of Doubt over the weekend playing a retired prosecutor testifying at a parole hearing.

Nice to know he's still working as he's a very watchable actor. A few weeks ago I watched him in an episode of Columbo as a slick womaniser. It's a shame he was caught in the act as it meant he was the episode's murder victim, killed in the first act. But again he was great in the role. This would be 1989, so just post-C&L.


I'd love to see him in my dream final C&L movie. With David and Christine both being retired maybe their political discussions would be a little less heated. Perhaps they've reached an accomodation like Diane and Kurt on The Good Fight.

Oh yes. That could be really interesting.
 

Fin Jordan

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Oh, I'm sure a lot of international viewers felt the same way. Actually, I do have a fondness for regional accents of all kinds (despite being a small country, we have a zillion of them here in the UK) and I liked both Mary Beth and Harv's. As I remember, my main bugbear was just with Harv's pronunciation of Mary Beth's name as I sometimes felt John Karlen overdid it. I might feel differently if I rewatched it today.
Me as well, on the fondness for regional accents, and particularly on your zillion in the UK. :)
 

Mel O'Drama

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Me as well, on the fondness for regional accents, and particularly on your zillion in the UK. :)

Aww - that's nice. One thing about the UK is that once you're here you don't have to travel far to experience the many accents. For most Brits, you can journey only fifteen or twenty miles and suddenly hear a completely different dialect.
 

Fin Jordan

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RULES OF THE GAME

There’s a plot with Harv wants to make a will and sulks until Mary Beth agrees to make one too. It’s a little tiresome but does conclude with quite a sweet Blake and Krystle type moment on the roof of their building with the boys’ portable record player and a candle:

HARV: “Tonight we dance, because I decided we are not gonna die. You know why?”
MARY BETH: “Why?”
HARV: ‘Cos we love each other too much. That’s why.”
MARY BETH: “Oh Harv. That’s the most romantic thing that you ever said to me.”


There’s a definite theme of Lacey getting swept up in romance this season
Apologies, it's me again replying on old conversations. :confused: It has taken me lots and lots of viewings to notice, but I think I have decided that this show is big into telegraphing. This whole part about the will seems kind of meaningless or tiresome as you said, but we know now that it's taking place just a whisper away from Mary Beth's cancer brush with death. An earlier scene had them walking in the park talking about if Harv would marry again if she ever died, and who that person would be. MB says "if I die and you marry a blonde bimbo, I'll kill ya." They don't talk about if Harvey dies or if she would remarry. Then this scene that you transcribed above follows later. I feel like this plot line is here purposely ahead of the cancer storyline. (And knowing now what is to come, the scene has just tripled in meaning and appeal-- maybe someone put a thought to syndication and reruns when they wrote the show?). They did this before in the episodes "Taxicab Murders" then "An Unusual Occurrence." In Taxicab, Michael turns up at Cagney's home and among some other conversation, he asks her how many people she's killed and she answers that she hasn't killed anybody. Then the very next episode is the first person she kills. I assume Michael's question is also there to let the audience know they are "erasing" the first Cagney (Loretta Swit) killing the man in the dry cleaning shop in the pilot movie, but I feel like this telegraphing scene might have been there anyway even if the movie never existed. There are a couple of other telegraphing instances I've noticed throughout the series as well. It all seems like more than coincidence to me, but I don't really know for sure.
 
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Mel O'Drama

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Apologies, it's me again replying on old conversations. :confused:

No need for apologies, Fin. I'm enjoying your thoughts on the show.



I think I have decided that this show is big into telegraphing. This whole part about the will seems kind of meaningless or tiresome as you said, but we know now that it's taking place just a whisper away from Mary Beth's cancer brush with death.

Oh, that's an excellent observation. Obviously I didn't spot the timing of this at the time.



In Taxicab, Michael turns up at Cagney's home and among some other conversation, he asks her how many people she's killed and she answers that she hasn't killed anybody. Then the very next episode is the first person she kills. I assume Michael's question is also there to let the audience know they are "erasing" the first Cagney (Loretta Swit) killing the man in the dry cleaning shop in the pilot movie, but I feel like this telegraphing scene might have been there anyway even if the movie never existed.

We're in definite agreement here. I remember noticing this one when I last watched the episode and commenting on it somewhere in this thread.




There are a couple of other telegraphing instances I've noticed throughout the series as well. It all seems like more than coincidence to me, but I don't really know for sure.

Absolutely. I agree with you about the series' use of telegraphing. It's an incredibly well-plotted show with pipe being carefully laid well ahead of time. I recall in several interviews, Sharon and Barney have talked about how Barney and the writing team plotted the entire season that ended with Cagney's AA meeting to include lots of little hints and clues that showed the progression of her alcoholism.
 

Chris2

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I’ll have to rewatch and see if I catch the foreshadowing for Mary Beth’s cancer. The episode after the surgery, which takes place a few months later and Mary Beth is considering retiring, is probably my favorite of the series. Great scene with a confrontation between Chris and Mary Beth, and another great one with Samuels comforting Chris, who doesn’t want to face the possibility of a new partner.
 
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Fin Jordan

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WHO SAID IT’S FAIR (Part II)

I was very surprised, though, to learn that Dana Kaproff was not even nominated, as the music is some of the most beautiful I’ve heard on a TV show.
One little bit of continuity here that a friend of mine who has a music degree and knows music noticed: Just before Samuels comes into Mary Beth's hospital room, MB takes out a small cassette recorder and turns on some classical music. It's the same classical tune the woman on the beach played in "Burn Out," and gave MB the cassette. So we are left to assume that is the cassette she's playing. Pretty cool, right? A year or so after my friend mentioned that, I did come across an interview with Barney Rosenzweig where he mentioned that fact, and said that it was just something they "tucked in there for the fans." I love that. :)
 

Mel O'Drama

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One little bit of continuity here that a friend of mine who has a music degree and knows music noticed: Just before Samuels comes into Mary Beth's hospital room, MB takes out a small cassette recorder and turns on some classical music. It's the same classical tune the woman on the beach played in "Burn Out," and gave MB the cassette. So we are left to assume that is the cassette she's playing. Pretty cool, right?

That's a lovely touch and again it shows the attention to the tiniest detail that made this series so very special.
 

AndyB2008

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CHOP SHOP

With these latter Season Two episodes, there's a feeling that the supporting cast are stepping into the sunlight a little more, creating a more ensemble feel. They've been serving an important role thus far, but there are some minor changes that suggest a recognition of the quality of the cast. The two main stories in this episode can best be described as "Isbecki is kidnapped after an undercover operation gets blown" and "Petrie shoots and kills a mugger in Harlem". Perhaps the first time the entire plot could be summed up without a mention of either of the titular characters. Equally significantly, for the first time to the best of my memory, the end-of-episode freeze-frame features neither of the two leads.

That's not to say the format of the show has changed, and Chris and Mary Beth remain in the thick of things, and their responses remain key. But this episode has a refreshing - and organic - sense of evolution. An appreciation, if you will, for the underdog.

Both Isbecki's kidnap and Petrie's shooting are cop show clichés on the surface. Isbecki's story in particular ticks some very familiar boxes: he's held in a garage, tied to a chair, effects an escape after slipping his bonds, is caught and beaten and eventually put into a car that's put into a crusher in a scrap yard which is stopped in the nick of time. This shows things haven't changed too much, as the most gripping parts of the story involve the bungled operation at the beginning where Chris and Mary Beth lose the wired Isbecki as they tail him (the setup and execution feeling very familiar to anyone who watched Conduct Unbecoming), and their phone calls with one of the kidnappers who is helping them in return for immunity (there's a really nice, tense scene where Chris bluffs her way though a conversation with him while they wait for Samuels to show up with the papers they need). So really, it's when Chris and Mary Beth are thrown into the mix that the story really goes somewhere special.

Petrie's storyline is just great. Layered, carefully woven and thought-provoking. The political side to policing comes to the fore (something this show does incredibly well). Because the young man that Petrie shot and killed was black, there's the view from high up that there will be less fallout for the force if it is publicised that the cop who fired the shot was also black. Not wanting any part of it, Petrie finds himself the unwilling participant in a race relations exercise. On a deeper level, it also prompts Petrie to question himself about his internalised racism and the fact that he views Harlem differently as a result of being on the force.

There are some nice touches of continuity. Two journalists have appeared in earlier episodes and Mary Beth references her own experience of killing someone back in Season One's Pop Used To Work Chinatown. I enjoyed having a number of Mary Beth/Petrie scenes in this episode. I always enjoy the friendship between these two. Chris aside, Petrie was the first person to connect with Mary Beth at the 14th, and while the series has moved on following their initial bonding over being persecuted minorities, it's such a strong foundation that the history is implicit in all of their scenes, something that is utilised well here. Besides, Carl Lumbly is a wonderful actor, and I look forward to more Petrie goodness in future episodes.
There's a bit of a blooper in that episode, as a bus saying LA downtown comes into shot in the background.

You see, although Cagney and Lacey was set in New York, a bulk of the filming was done in Los Angeles, with some background shots in New York. (Same with CSI:NY and NYPD Blue, which were mainly based in California)

If Barney Rosenzweig had his way, it would be set in Los Angeles full stop as he felt it easy. But he set it in New York because of the rich texture of the city.
 

Mel O'Drama

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This fun appearance from 2007 popped up in my suggestions this morning:




They're such sports. Especially with the ladies toilets voiceovers in Part Two.​
 
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