Did Miss Ellie Have The Right To Give Southfork To Garrison?

[Billy Wall]

There seems to be a little confusion on who actually owned Southfork when Jock was alive. We all know Jock saved the ranch many years ago. It would seem quite odd that Jock wouldn’t have his name on the deed after all those years, but Miss Ellie would insist that Clayton be partial owner after about 4 years of marriage.

I know TV shows can be quite bad with continuity, but looking at it again, it also seem quite odd for Miss Ellie to just hand over Southfork to a brother they all thought was dead without even discussing it with Jock, but then get bent out of shape when Jock rearranged the trust fund to include Ray.

Others have been called out for being hypocrites, was Miss Ellie being hypocritical?

 

[TheDeadBobby]

I think Texas law is that a marriage will split property right down the middle, so after Jock kicked the bucket Miss Ellie would have had to change the deed fully back into her name... but there would have been legal complications due to the freaky nature of Jock's death. Even so, marriage pretty much shares property with your spouse, so Clayton would have automatically owned 1/2 IMO.

I heard of a guy and actually saw video where he was getting an angry divorce and took a chainsaw and started cutting the house in half... right down the wall to the foundation ... it didn't show the roof but that would have been the hardest part. I don't know what this has to do with anything here on the Dallas forum, maybe it was in Dallas, I don't know, if anyone knows, please message me and let me know, thanks!

 

[Taylor Bennett Jr.]

I think Texas law is that a marriage will split property right down the middle, so after Jock kicked the bucket Miss Ellie would have had to change the deed fully back into her name... but there would have been legal complications due to the freaky nature of Jock's death. Even so, marriage pretty much shares property with your spouse, so Clayton would have automatically owned 1/2 IMO.

I heard of a guy and actually saw video where he was getting an angry divorce and took a chainsaw and started cutting the house in half... right down the wall to the foundation ... it didn't show the roof but that would have been the hardest part. I don't know what this has to do with anything here on the Dallas forum, maybe it was in Dallas, I don't know, if anyone knows, please message me and let me know, thanks!

if poor Jim Davis had been healthy and able to continue with the Takapa divorce storyline from the end of season 3/4 DVD , we could have been treated to a scene with Jock and Ray on top of the house with chainsaws trying to saw the roof in half, Jock saying 'damn' and 'hell' even more than usual as JR and Bobby and the rest of the family stumble around the property drunk with Miss Ellie gazing wistfully into the distance giving one of her "it was the land my Daddy loved" speeches... maybe even Aaron Southworth could appear again, having faked his death (I mean, we never saw the funeral or body or anything, right?)

 

[Sarah]

I'm not much with the law but the way I see it is that Southfork was a Southworth birthright - it was down to Miss Ellie to do with the Ranch as she pleased.

And I wouldn't mess with her.

 

[Luke_Krebbs_Ewing]

I'm not much with the law but the way I see it is that Southfork was a Southworth birthright - it was down to Miss Ellie to do with the Ranch as she pleased.

And I wouldn't mess with her.

If Garrison hadn't been supposedly lost at sea Southfork rightfully would've belonged to him.

Miss Ellie only wanted to honour her Father's wishes and give Southfork back to Garrison

In the event Garrison didn't really want Southfork back at all. The man was dying and wanted to be with his sister and his family before he passed away.

The speech Miss Ellie gave Jock and JR that not everyone is motivated by money and greed was very telling. She just wanted to be with her brother before he passed away to give him a dignified passing.

 

[Lastkidpicked]

@Via The Void is correct: If Garrison hadn't been supposedly lost at sea Southfork rightfully would've belonged to him.

If you will indulge me, I'll tell you how it has worked in Dallas (well, all of Texas actually).

There's a reason that so many companies in Texas are called Six Flags.




We've been under six different flags:
The Kingdom of Spain, the Kingdom of France, the Republic of Mexico, the Republic of Texas, the Confederate States of America and the United States of America.




To add to our crazy history, some people claim we've been under SEVEN flags because The Republic of the Rio Grande claimed us for ten months.

So, the title to a piece of land is really just a piece of paper which can be fought over in a court of law. We've seen drawn out court cases where the argument is:

"Yes, we see that @Billy Wall bought the ranch from @TheDeadBobby . But the ranch wasn't Billy Wall's to sell. Billy's grandfather was granted this land from the Republic of Texas, which no longer exists. So Billy bought the land from a person with no legal ownership.

The reason we don't see these fights very often?

Because a years long legal battle would usually cost more than the land is worth anyway. But Southfork is very valuable. Here was the fear of J.R:

Garrison sues the Ewings for half of Southfork under the legal theory that as the oldest son, he was entitled to the ranch. (I know this is chauvinist, but I'm just following the history). Garrison was declared dead after his boat went down so he couldn't claim his birthright when Aaron Southworth sold the ranch to Jock and Ellie Ewing.

To put a finer point on it: Had Garrison not been missing and presumed dead, Aaron Southworth would not have sold the ranch. It would have first been offered to Garrison.

The big fear is that while this is tied up in court, Garrison puts a lien on the ranch. This means that no part of the ranch can be sold, and no mortgage can be taken out against the ranch. For example, going back in time-- If there was a lien in place at the time that Jock gave a piece of land to Ray, then Jock could not have done so.

So the next question is, what about Ray's portion of the ranch which was gifted to him by Jock? There's a theory that Ray's portion wasn't Jock's to give.

Yes indeed. The Ewings had a legitimate fear when Garrison came around. It could have made for some interesting storylines.

 

[Chris2]

Correct me if I’m wrong I understood that Southfork was the property of Ewing Oil, given that JR mortgaged it during season 2 to pay for the Asian oil leases. And when Jock’s will was read during season 5, he left it to Ellie.

So l don’t believe Ellie had the legal right to give the ranch to anyone prior to Jock’s will being executed.

 

[Angela Channing]

Correct me if I’m wrong I understood that Southfork was the property of Ewing Oil, given that JR mortgaged it during season 2 to pay for the Asian oil leases. And when Jock’s will was read during season 5, he left it to Ellie.

So l don’t believe Ellie had the legal right to give the ranch to anyone prior to Jock’s will being executed.

I agree with this. I think there was a parent company called Ewing Enterprises that seemed to comprise of 2 businesses of which we were aware: Southfork and Ewing Oil. I think Jock owned 100% of the company. That said, if Ellie believed Garrison was the rightful owner of the ranch and should be given the property, I think ultimately Jock would have acquiesced to her wishes.

 

[Bobby Southworth]

I think Texas law is that a marriage will split property right down the middle, so after Jock kicked the bucket Miss Ellie would have had to change the deed fully back into her name... but there would have been legal complications due to the freaky nature of Jock's death. Even so, marriage pretty much shares property with your spouse, so Clayton would have automatically owned 1/2 IMO.

I heard of a guy and actually saw video where he was getting an angry divorce and took a chainsaw and started cutting the house in half... right down the wall to the foundation ... it didn't show the roof but that would have been the hardest part. I don't know what this has to do with anything here on the Dallas forum, maybe it was in Dallas, I don't know, if anyone knows, please message me and let me know, thanks!

Was the guy John Denver? j/k. I did see in a movie about his life where he supposedly did saw the bed in half or something when Annie and him were divorcing.

 

[Luke_Krebbs_Ewing]

Correct me if I’m wrong I understood that Southfork was the property of Ewing Oil, given that JR mortgaged it during season 2 to pay for the Asian oil leases. And when Jock’s will was read during season 5, he left it to Ellie.

So l don’t believe Ellie had the legal right to give the ranch to anyone prior to Jock’s will being executed.

I certainly don't recall Southfork being the property of Ewing Oil.

Ewing Oil and Ewing Enterprises were technically the same company.

Southfork belonged to Miss Ellie it was up to her who was going to end up owning the ranch.

 

[Luke_Krebbs_Ewing]

While Jock was still alive I believe both he and Miss Ellie owned Southfork jointly. When he passed away he left his half to Miss Ellie where Miss Ellie now owned Southfork outright. In season thirteen (DVD count) JR became enraged by his Mother's decision to give Clayton Farlow half ownership of Southfork. However this was fully up to Miss Ellie as she was sole owner of the ranch following Jock's sad death.

 

[Billy Wall]

Correct me if I’m wrong I understood that Southfork was the property of Ewing Oil, given that JR mortgaged it during season 2 to pay for the Asian oil leases. And when Jock’s will was read during season 5, he left it to Ellie.

So l don’t believe Ellie had the legal right to give the ranch to anyone prior to Jock’s will being executed.

Exactly. That’s why I said there seems to be some confusion about who actually owned Southfork.

 

[Billy Wall]

I certainly don't recall Southfork being the property of Ewing Oil.

Ewing Oil and Ewing Enterprises were technically the same company.

Southfork belonged to Miss Ellie it was up to her who was going to end up owning the ranch.

But Chris brings up a very good point. How was JR able to mortgage something he doesn’t own?

 

[Chris2]

I went back and watched a clip of the The Kirstin Affair episode (thank god for imdb), when JR mortgages Southfork. And they address this. Here’s the dialogue:

JR: I can’t mortgage Southfork.
Vaughn Leland: Well, sure you can. It’s part of Ewing Enterprises. You’re the president. You have every legal right.

I also watched a bit of the “Jock’s Will“ episode from a few years later. Harv states that Jock has left full title of Southfork to Miss Ellie. So they followed the continuity that Miss Ellie did not have the title to Southfork earlier in the series.

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

I went back and watched a clip of the The Kirstin Affair episode (thank god for imdb), when JR mortgages Southfork. And they address this. Here’s the dialogue:

JR: I can’t mortgage Southfork.
Vaughn Leland: Well, sure you can. It’s part of Ewing Enterprises. You’re the president. You have every legal right.

I also watched a bit of the “Jock’s Will“ episode from a few years later. Harv states that Jock has left full title of Southfork to Miss Ellie. So they followed the continuity that Miss Ellie did not have the title to Southfork earlier in the series.

This sounds accurate. Also I would guess that Jock and Ellie would own Southfork jointly by adverse possession, after a specified number of years, even if Garrison was alive. After that time, Garrison would have no title, since his absence was a type of abandonment. I'm not at all sure, but wouldn't he owe Jock and Ellie compensation
for maintaining the property and paying the bills since the other outcome would be foreclosure?

 

[stevew]

Correct me if I’m wrong I understood that Southfork was the property of Ewing Oil, given that JR mortgaged it during season 2 to pay for the Asian oil leases. And when Jock’s will was read during season 5, he left it to Ellie.

So l don’t believe Ellie had the legal right to give the ranch to anyone prior to Jock’s will being executed.

That’s my understanding. At one point I heard it referred to as Ewing Enterprises as well, as in an umbrella company. I think. It’s fair to assume I’m saving it the company acquired it.

But I think I it’s also fair to say Miss Ellie didn’t care the name on it she had a strong idea of right and wrong and certainly could make life hell for Jock, up to and including divorcing Jock and getting her share. So it would be so simple as to say her name was or was not in the deed.

After the mortgage I believe they made it a personal asset of Jock’s. So the. Ellie inherits it all and gives half to Clayton. And then outside of marriage, igniting estate and gift taxes, due to sloppy writing, they then gives it to Bobby. Then some how years after her death, again sloppy writing, she takes back and gives 1/2 to John Ross. And no taxes paid on what is billions in value. I’m guessing some trust fund paperwork existed we never heard mention of.

 

[stevew]

But Chris brings up a very good point. How was JR able to mortgage something he doesn’t own?

It was company property.

 

[stevew]

While Jock was still alive I believe both he and Miss Ellie owned Southfork jointly. When he passed away he left his half to Miss Ellie where Miss Ellie now owned Southfork outright. In season thirteen (DVD count) JR became enraged by his Mother's decision to give Clayton Farlow half ownership of Southfork. However this was fully up to Miss Ellie as she was sole owner of the ranch following Jock's sad death.

Prior to the mortgage situation where they almost lost it it was company property.

 

[Lastkidpicked]

There is one thing the writers didn't get into, so I'll get into it for you.

In Texas, a ranch is a real status symbol. Many lawyers, bankers, and others who meet with clients will have a ranch (although not as big as Southfork).

Why is this?

Because other status symbols can only go so far. Anybody can buy or lease an expensive car. Anybody can buy expensive clothes and take clients to expensive dinners.
A true way that a Texan can show they are successful? Owning a working ranch where you can occasionally invite clients.

Here's an example:

"Thank you for calling today, @Billy Wall . I'd like to take you to an expensive dinner and we can talk business."
Yes, that's nice. But anybody can do that. Compare this to:

"Thank you for calling today, @stevew . I generally take Wednesdays off to go over things at the ranch. Why don't you come out to the ranch Wednesday and we can discuss business over lunch? We can have Theresa and Raul cook us up some nice steaks. "

Now, who could say no to that?

On a personal note, I'm more like Ray Krebbs than Jock Ewing. But I have a little place. And just last week one of my competitors asked if he could come by the shop and borrow a trailer.

"Forget the shop," I told him. "Come on out to my place after work. I'll help you hook up to the trailer and we'll crack open a beer or five."

Have I ever told you I love Texas? Good times. . .

 

[stevew]

There is one thing the writers didn't get into, so I'll get into it for you.

In Texas, a ranch is a real status symbol. Many lawyers, bankers, and others who meet with clients will have a ranch (although not as big as Southfork).

Why is this?

Because other status symbols can only go so far. Anybody can buy or lease an expensive car. Anybody can buy expensive clothes and take clients to expensive dinners.
A true way that a Texan can show they are successful? Owning a working ranch where you can occasionally invite clients.

Here's an example:

"Thank you for calling today, @Billy Wall . I'd like to take you to an expensive dinner and we can talk business."
Yes, that's nice. But anybody can do that. Compare this to:

"Thank you for calling today, @stevew . I generally take Wednesdays off to go over things at the ranch. Why don't you come out to the ranch Wednesday and we can discuss business over lunch? We can have Theresa and Raul cook us up some nice steaks. "

Now, who could say no to that?

On a personal note, I'm more like Ray Krebbs than Jock Ewing. But I have a little place. And just last week one of my competitors asked if he could come by the shop and borrow a trailer.

"Forget the shop," I told him. "Come on out to my place after work. I'll help you hook up to the trailer and we'll crack open a beer or five."

Have I ever told you I love Texas? Good times. . .

Not just Texas, lots of people do that with their house in business. In fact I find the most successful businessmen seldom go into an office but run things from their home and/or jet and/or yacht and/or other homes. Like Jock, other people handle the day to day and they just give barking orders from meetings at home. The home could be a New York penthouse instead of a Texas ranch but they’re all status symbols that say look at me and who I am and what I’ve done to get here.

BTW, the guys I would find most interesting are those that never say look at me, but say look over there. I’m just a quite guy having dinner at a modest restaurant. Nothing to see here. It’s how I’d have played out Dallas 2012: JR running an empire no one knows he’s running, and go all out, give him a both at a dive bar, maybe the one Digger use to sit in. A shell of a man, nothing to see here, yet an empire so big Carlos DelSol is indebted to him. And as for Ewing Enterprises, yes I’d have resurrected that name, I’d have a company that Bobby owned 1/3, Sue Ellen owned 1/3 and Lucy, via a late husband, owned 1/3 - all saying look at me, how rich we are and not ignoring the movies just to ignore them. And I liked the idea of them all involved in charity work and politics that they did with Sue Ellen. And Bobby running the company from the ranch, very much the monarch of Dallas, all the generals coming to him.