Snarky Oracle!
Telly Talk Supreme
It was a mess -- the audience for DALLAS wasn't about to jump ship immediately, but it was indeed the beginning of the long, drawn-out end.
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It was a mess -- the audience for DALLAS wasn't about to jump ship immediately, but it was indeed the beginning of the long, drawn-out end.
Rove
Telly Talk Warrior
Rove
Telly Talk Warrior
On screen no but it's clear the producers admitted their error by reducing Donna Reed's portrayal of Miss Ellie as the season progressed. If Barbara Bel had health problems and requested a decrease in her work load then do everything to accommodate that request. After all, this was the only actor from Dallas to win an Emmy Award.
Donna Reed may have been an Academy and Golden Globe Award winner but putting her in a position of taking over an already established character embedded in the minds of millions around the world was dumb.
Luke_Krebbs_Ewing
Telly Talk Champion
It wasn't really Reed's fault. The Producers selected her to replace Barbara Bel Geddes without thinking about the long term implications.
I feel sorry for Donna Reed. She along with Barbara were the victims in all of the power play behind the scenes. If the Producers had only acquiesced to Barbara's request for some more money but a reduced workload for a while there would've been no need to recast Miss Ellie.
It was the Producers who were dumb. They underestimated the popularity of Barbara as Miss Ellie and not only did they hurt her by dropping her but they also hurt the recast actor as well when they weren't happy with her performance. It was a double edged sword scenario and whilst ultimately they realised they shouldn't have recast the role and brought Barbara back I can't help be disgusted that it cost the lovely Donna Reed her life. God Bless her, she didn't deserve to be treated like a scapegoat as if it was her fault.
Mustard
Telly Talk TV Fanatic
It did have implications in terms of the dynamics in the Ewing family and in the dynamics of Dallas at large, because Donna's Miss Ellie had ranching as her distant past heritage while being a typical oil baron's wife. Barbara's Miss Ellie was always a rancher's daughter first and foremost. Some people might say "Big deal", but it matters, because the rancher's daughter believes strongly that her way is the best way on many things and she will fight against the Ewing way where she feels it necessary, whereas the typical oil baron's wife won't do that. This, in turn, is reflected in the different performances of Barbara Bel Geddes and Donna Reed as Miss Ellie, especially the strange lack of emotion in Reed's portrayal. That wasn't poor acting, but the fact that a typical oil baron's wife would be like that, and would conform and acquiesce much more easily. This was, therefore, a fundamental change of character that had wider implications on the dynamics of the show.
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Seaviewer
Telly Talk Warrior
I'm not arguing against any of the criticisms but, yes,, I do think it was worth it to keep the character going. Introducing an aunt, for example, who would have had no comparable authority in the family would have created its own set of problems.
Rove
Telly Talk Warrior
Perhaps - as it has been suggested - Dallas should have had Jason Ewing walk down the Southfork driveway instead of his daughter Jamie. Introducing Jason while resting Miss Ellie would have upset the mechanics of the Ewing family and I believe carried more weight in his fight for a share of Ewing Oil. The character of Miss Ellie could easily have been used off-camera liked they did with Jock. That is, have members of the family talk to Miss Ellie over the phone or she signed over her voting rights to Clayton...again upsetting the dynamic of the family.
But I suppose all these ideas look good on paper in hindsight.
Jock Ewing Fan
Telly Talk Star
Big Deal LOL!
Dorothy Malone was asked to play the role, so the role was going to be recast.
It is sad that so many people refused to consider anyone else, and sadder still that Donna Reed was treated so poorly
Dorothy Malone - Wikipedia
Snarky Oracle!
Telly Talk Supreme
Because it's about the female characters -- so it doesn't matter??
Dorothy Malone was asked to play the role, so the role was going to be recast.
It is sad that so many people refused to consider anyone else, and sadder still that Donna Reed was treated so poorly
Dorothy Malone - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
BBG was treated poorly, too. Both actresses were.
The producers did give Reed a chance, by hiring her, but started cutting back her scenes quickly because they just weren't working (while the Lorimar executives simultaneously extended her contract by two more years -- so there was some disconnect behind the scenes).
Jock Ewing Fan
Telly Talk Star
It has nothing to do with whether the characters are male or female, and you know it.
C'mon I expect better from you.
They were ready to cast Robert Culp if Larry Hagman didn't return
They attempted to recast Jock ( and should have - it would have given BBG and Howard Keel actual storylines)
They recast Digger
Pam was not recast (save for one clumsy episode) so it clearly mattered
And again, the reality is that no one was watching Dallas to see the week to week adventures of Miss Ellie.
They watched for JR, Sue Ellen, Bobby, Pam and any challenge to Ewing Oil, which usually included Cliff
Who cared about Miss Ellie's week to week adventures in season 13 when she was imitating (badly written) Angela Lansbury? No one.
This is not to criticize BBG, a fine actress. Yes, it can be argued that she was not treated well, but it is Show Business
No one was taking a salary reduction for BBG to remain.
Dallas lost its prominence for a variety of reasons - budget cuts, scripts that were mediocre or repeating, viewer fatigue, etc
but whoever cast as Miss Ellie had no effect on primary or secondary storylines.
Miss Ellie and Clayton had no real effect on story after the dream season, having been reduced to
plot devices at best, slightly more than stock characters just as often
C'mon you are far more capable of good commentary than misrepresenting my comments based on the gender of the characters
I expect much better from you
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Snarky Oracle!
Telly Talk Supreme
I do?
You do?
That, and Robert Vaughn, was just a negotiating threat, and Larry called their bluff.
Oh, really? Maybe not for you. But many of us watched for all of those characters. And ratings still crashed in the latter seasons despite the JR/Bobby/Cliff storylines continuing.
Not everyone has your tastes and preferences.
But that was just a badly written plotline.
You do?? And your approval is so important to me, that your withholding it drives me into depression, insanity -- and, ultimately, inevitable suicidality.
What can I do?? How can you help me care as little about BBG as Miss Ellie as you do? It's my only possible cure!
Willie Oleson
Telly Talk Schemer
Please don't pick on @Snarky Oracle! he's a very sensitive person.
Soaplover
Telly Talk Fan
Miss Ellie was a ranchers daughter.. she would stand up to Jock and/or JR if anything Ewing Oil related had the potential of affecting anything going on at Southfork. She had nerves of steel and a gentle.. but firm touch when dealing with anyone.
The best solution would have been to have reduced Miss Ellie's airtime on the show during the season while the actress was focusing on her health issues.. and perhaps that absence might have lent more credibility to the all the turmoil going on at Southfork and Ewing Oil.. because Miss Ellie was no longer around all the time to talk sense into everyone.
However.. the biggest reason why the 1984 to 1985 season was the start of the decline was because the stories were starting to become like a hamster wheel with JR always winning.. JR always cheating.. Sue Ellen always going back to JR or falling off the wagon, etc. There was almost no plot movement whatsoever... so I think killing Bobby off could have been a way to reset the show and given it a new lease of life (which at first.. seemed to happen before the Anjelica Nero and Pam's South American adventure took over in the 2nd half of the dream season).
I think losing Afton and Katherine at the start of the season hurt the show. I could understand Katherine leaving.. but I would have kept Afton on for the season because some of the story that Mandy was involved with could have been given to Afton. And it would have kind of made sense due to Afton's previous ties/history to JR and Sue Ellen.. and Afton vs Jamie would have at least been something to make Jamie more variable.
On paper, I think having Lucy work at the diner wasn't a bad idea. It could have been used as a way for Lucy to imagine what her life might have been like had she been raised by Val instead of by the Ewings. It would have been a character driven move to get inside Lucy's head and it could have been an effective way to have Lucy figure out what her purpose was in her life and she might have decided to leave Dallas with that purpose in mind.
The best solution would have been to have reduced Miss Ellie's airtime on the show during the season while the actress was focusing on her health issues.. and perhaps that absence might have lent more credibility to the all the turmoil going on at Southfork and Ewing Oil.. because Miss Ellie was no longer around all the time to talk sense into everyone.
However.. the biggest reason why the 1984 to 1985 season was the start of the decline was because the stories were starting to become like a hamster wheel with JR always winning.. JR always cheating.. Sue Ellen always going back to JR or falling off the wagon, etc. There was almost no plot movement whatsoever... so I think killing Bobby off could have been a way to reset the show and given it a new lease of life (which at first.. seemed to happen before the Anjelica Nero and Pam's South American adventure took over in the 2nd half of the dream season).
I think losing Afton and Katherine at the start of the season hurt the show. I could understand Katherine leaving.. but I would have kept Afton on for the season because some of the story that Mandy was involved with could have been given to Afton. And it would have kind of made sense due to Afton's previous ties/history to JR and Sue Ellen.. and Afton vs Jamie would have at least been something to make Jamie more variable.
On paper, I think having Lucy work at the diner wasn't a bad idea. It could have been used as a way for Lucy to imagine what her life might have been like had she been raised by Val instead of by the Ewings. It would have been a character driven move to get inside Lucy's head and it could have been an effective way to have Lucy figure out what her purpose was in her life and she might have decided to leave Dallas with that purpose in mind.
Jock Ewing Fan
Telly Talk Star
You indicated that you think that I think female characters are interchangeable. That is misrepresenting what I said and you know it.
This is getting tiresome, so I will attempt to clarify
First and foremost, I evaluate Dallas primarily based on scripts, character development and ratings.
I respect BBG as a very good actress. I thought that the writing for Miss Ellie was not as good after losing Jim Davis.
Was BBG treated unfairly? Try asking an employer for more pay and less responsibility in a job.
The outcome probably will not be favorable to the employee. This is show Business.
Most production companies would have not been agreeable to those terms, except maybe if it was the lead character.
BBG's return to the series did not increase ratings. In fact, ratings declined steeply.
It was not BBG's fault, but it was not Donna Reed's fault either.
Not everyone has your taste and preferences either.
In general you make good posts, and I am not trying to dismiss your opinions,
but I have a right to mine as well
If you need to have the last word, so be it, but at least be accurate about what I actually said
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Snarky Oracle!
Telly Talk Supreme
And one who needs the last word.
Snarky Oracle!
Telly Talk Supreme
You keep saying that I "know" things!
Why?
I've always said that about you. And I always will.
And that kind of thing happens all the time in show business.
Probably. Not doing so for a supporting character as important as the matriarch created a scandal still discussed today.
I agree it's neither actress's fault. But the foolish series of executive actions was the line in the sand for the show.
Most series have a surge -- and drop -- in the ratings for various reasons. And the game of musical Ellie heads was as much a symptom as a cause. But it didn't help.
If anything, the recasting of Ellie cast a pall over the 84/85 season. A sense of depression that something special had now been ruined. And surely that kind of karma shift can affect the writing, directly or indirectly.
As Hitchcock said, "casting is character." And it certainly changed the writing for Ellie.
Nor would I demand it.
But the conservative heteronormative American male viewer tends to think JR and Jock are the unquestioned stars of the show and that their dominance over all other characters is God's will.
Not that you fit that description, of course. That might be misrepresentation.
Shameless manipulation. No one is preventing anyone from their right to an opinion -- no matter how foolish.
I do the best that I can.
And so did she...
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Mustard
Telly Talk TV Fanatic
Larry Hagman knew that Dallas couldn't continue without J.R. Ewing, and most likely not without Larry Hagman playing J.R. Ewing. Larry also made sure that he wasn't in the US when the episode aired on CBS, so it had the brass chasing him around instead of any hint of vice versa. It was played to perfection by Larry at the time.
Miss Ellie was a vital part of Dallas, being the landed rock and embodiment of Southfork Ranch, and it would be ridiculous to claim otherwise. Dallas was not the J.R. and Bobby show alone, and we saw what happened in the late seasons when it went in that direction. Dallas worked best as an ensemble piece, all aspects of the family and its business from oil to ranching, and mixing serious drama and soap opera elements.
Jock Ewing Fan
Telly Talk Star
In later seasons, there were multiple reasons for its decline, including lack of good writing for all characters. Departures of Victoria Principal,Susan Howard, Steve Kanaly, a failure in casting better characters, lower budgets and repeating storylines. Dallas was an ensemble but not all had the same appeal, and it is not reality to suggest otherwise. ie JR was more interesting than Ray. Again, the show was at its peak when JR, Bobby, Pam and Sue Ellen were the main focus with challenges to Ewing Oil (usually by Cliff). Miss Ellie was basically reduced to a a supporting character/plot device after Jim Davis passed, and had little impact other than trying to sell Ewing Oil twice. Not BBG's fault, moreso the writing. even after BBG came back, ratings declined steeply and never recovered. Later seasons declined, but no matter who played Miss Ellie or what the stories were (including a really bad Jessica Fletcher imitation) nothing about BBG or the Miss Ellie character was going to make any difference
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Willie Oleson
Telly Talk Schemer
It's also about the scenes, to see how the characters interact, and then it doesn't matter how big the stories or characters are.
BBG really needed to be in Bobby's death scene - even if that was the only thing she did that season.
It depends on what's happening and therefore I want every actor to be as good as possible (and that includes the one-offs from the early years).
Snarky Oracle!
Telly Talk Supreme
"But --- who will Barbara be playing...??"
