Katherine: The Aftermath

[stevew]

I didn’t really like the whole “Cliff and Pam magically become as wealthy as the Ewings via a long-lost, presumed-dead mother” angle, even if it led to great storylines.

A key factor in the Barnes-Ewing field was that it pitted the haves against the have-nots, and just changing it almost overnight, in something of a retcon-adjacent way, changed its nature...

Now instead of remaining a shrewd, scrappy, up-and-coming rival gunning for the big leagues, Cliff had to become a buffoonish idiot to remain a have-not. I’d like to have seen him develop some wealth in a different way, perhaps getting into the oil business via his OLM status. That would have been a high-profile position that would have opened some doors for him in a few different industries when he left the public sector.

It wouldn’t have been far-fetched for him to get there as a lawyer - a new generation Harv Smithfield or something. Imagine if he took on Ben Maxwell and some of his cronies as clients and built up a private practice around that.

I’m guessing a big factor in Cliff evolving into the “perennial loser” in his feud with JR was simply that Kercheval wasn’t tall and classically handsome like the Ewing brothers, and was also a fantastic comedic actor with a ton of range.

For all the “Cliff is a loser” talk, he sure ended up better off at the end of the series than the beginning, as opposed to JR, who in many ways was the real loser, even halfway through the series.

Great points and I agree - I wouldn't have made them suddenly rich either. My will with Rebecca dead would have left them a bit of money and the bulk with Katherine. In fact it is this venture that took what I thought was a serious drama about a rich family and their businesses and made it a soap opera.

 

[Taylor Bennett Jr.]

Great points and I agree - I wouldn't have made them suddenly rich either. My will with Rebecca dead would have left them a bit of money and the bulk with Katherine. In fact it is this venture that took what I thought was a serious drama about a rich family and their businesses and made it a soap opera.

ah, nice point, especially with Katherine being about the first overtly 'soap' character on the show. I don't think she would have fit in at all in the Jock era.

 

[Taylor Bennett Jr.]

Not sure what you mean.

if one defines mental illness as endogenous rather than learned behavior (I imagine some people do, even if the latest DSM would disagree), then Pam abandoning her child because that’s what her mother did to her when she was an infant wouldn’t necessarily be a result of ‘mental illness’.

 

[Jimmy Todd]

ah, nice point, especially with Katherine being about the first overtly 'soap' character on the show. I don't think she would have fit in at all in the Jock era.

Although I would have loved to have a scene or two where Jock met Katherine and give his thoughts on her.

 

[stevew]

ah, nice point, especially with Katherine being about the first overtly 'soap' character on the show. I don't think she would have fit in at all in the Jock era.

Agreed and that could have been a better story over suddenly Pam is rich and has a nanny and no job and Cliff is an idiot. Katherine: my mother died dealing with Pam and Cliff’s drama and because of the Ewing’s, I want a reckoning + EO is vulnerable with all the infighting and I want it to add to my father’s businesses.

 

[Taylor Bennett Jr.]

Agreed and that could have been a better story over suddenly Pam is rich and has a nanny and no job and Cliff is an idiot. Katherine: my mother died dealing with Pam and Cliff’s drama and because of the Ewing’s, I want a reckoning + EO is vulnerable with all the infighting and I want it to add to my father’s businesses.

I always felt like Pam lived more like a woman in her 50s who’d always been wealthy in those days, which is not at all how she was in the first couple of seasons

 

[stevew]

if one defines mental illness as endogenous rather than learned behavior (I imagine some people do, even if the latest DSM would disagree), then Pam abandoning her child because that’s what her mother did to her when she was an infant wouldn’t necessarily be a result of ‘mental illness’.

I’m not sure the DSM says it’s more learned behavior. It states “It is a medical condition, just like heart disease or diabetes. And mental health conditions are treatable. We are continually expanding our understanding of how the human brain works, and treatments are available to help people successfully manage mental health conditions.”

The Mayo Clinic gives a good concise explanation of Causes: “Mental illnesses, in general, are thought to be caused by a variety of genetic and environmental factors:

• Inherited traits. Mental illness is more common in people whose blood relatives also have a mental illness. Certain genes may increase your risk of developing a mental illness, and your life situation may trigger it.
• Environmental exposures before birth.Exposure to environmental stressors, inflammatory conditions, toxins, alcohol or drugs while in the womb can sometimes be linked to mental illness.
• Brain chemistry. Neurotransmitters are naturally occurring brain chemicals that carry signals to other parts of your brain and body. When the neural networks involving these chemicals are impaired, the function of nerve receptors and nerve systems change, leading to depression and other emotional disorders.

I’m note sure Pam learned to abandon her child from her mom. Maybe. Could be an argument as to why she did what she did. Also traumatic brain injury from the crash. My point is that it also could be some sort of inherited brain chemistry which skewed her reality, as it did Katherine in her obsession and as we saw with Cliff in TNT. Only explanation I can come up with why all 3 kids seem to have lost their grip on reality, according to the story lines we saw. ​

sorry about the format above. Can’t seem to fix it.

 

[Taylor Bennett Jr.]

I’m not sure the DSM says it’s more learned behavior. It states “It is a medical condition, just like heart disease or diabetes. And mental health conditions are treatable. We are continually expanding our understanding of how the human brain works, and treatments are available to help people successfully manage mental health conditions.”

The Mayo Clinic gives a good concise explanation of Causes: “Mental illnesses, in general, are thought to be caused by a variety of genetic and environmental factors:

• Inherited traits. Mental illness is more common in people whose blood relatives also have a mental illness. Certain genes may increase your risk of developing a mental illness, and your life situation may trigger it.
• Environmental exposures before birth.Exposure to environmental stressors, inflammatory conditions, toxins, alcohol or drugs while in the womb can sometimes be linked to mental illness.
• Brain chemistry. Neurotransmitters are naturally occurring brain chemicals that carry signals to other parts of your brain and body. When the neural networks involving these chemicals are impaired, the function of nerve receptors and nerve systems change, leading to depression and other emotional disorders.

I’m note sure Pam learned to abandon her child from her mom. Maybe. Could be an argument as to why she did what she did. Also traumatic brain injury from the crash. My point is that it also could be some sort of inherited brain chemistry which skewed her reality, as it did Katherine in her obsession as we saw with Cliff in TNT. Only explanation I can come up with why all 3 kids seem to have lost their grip on reality, according to the story lines we saw. ​

sorry about the format above. Can’t seem to fix it.

oh, I meant the DSM probably wouldn't agree with someone who views mental illness as strictly endogenous (and you did the research and confirmed that ) but I bet many laypeople do.. kind of similar to someone who'd argue that alcoholism isn't a disease.

 

[stevew]

oh, I meant the DSM probably wouldn't agree with someone who views mental illness as strictly endogenous (and you did the research and confirmed that ) but I bet many laypeople do.. kind of similar to someone who'd argue that alcoholism isn't a disease.

Thank you for clearing that up. I tend to look to the Mayo Clinic for most of my research on anything health related so it was a quick go to for me. 1st they’re great at making it understandable and 2nd they’re 2nd to none in credibility. But yes many would look to other factors.

I think TNT missed an opportunity by not taking it seriously and diving into it with good psy consultants and looking at Pamela as dealing with issues and a loose grasp of reality, which plays off the whole marry my cousin to help my dad thing.

 

[tommie]

I didn’t really like the whole “Cliff and Pam magically become as wealthy as the Ewings via a long-lost, presumed-dead mother” angle, even if it led to great storylines.

A key factor in the Barnes-Ewing field was that it pitted the haves against the have-nots, and just changing it almost overnight, in something of a retcon-adjacent way, changed its nature...

I can kind of see why they did it though - they wanted something to shake up the status quo of the narrative and I suppose giving Cliff (and the Barnses) actual resources was that thing. They probably felt they had gone as far as they could go with Cliff the Scrappy Underdog angle of the story.

 

[the-lost-son]

I can kind of see why they did it though - they wanted something to shake up the status quo of the narrative and I suppose giving Cliff (and the Barnses) actual resources was that thing. They probably felt they had gone as far as they could go with Cliff the Scrappy Underdog angle of the story.

I agree. It was thrilling and fascinating when this powerful Ewing family found an equal opponent - like the Farlows first and when Barnes-Wentworth.
But in the long-term (after their first clashes) it got repetitive and stale because it one point you got more of the same and only rich people were there - in season 6 we additionally had Mark Graison and another powerful empire, and the biggest oil strike in history. I think as a counterpart they had this idea of introducing poor cousin Jamie and Lucy as a waitress to avoid things going over the top.

I prefered Cliff as an underdog, but I didn't mind him being rich. I didn't like how they "lobotomized him". (quote Ken Kercheval)

 

[Jimmy Todd]

One thing about Katherine that never made sense and seemed to be there just for the "soap" factor was her suddenly going to bed with JR. There was no build up and didn't seem to have any motivation on her part. There was just this scene where she's in bed with JR. It's as if the writers figured she's a beautiful villainess so naturally she'd end up in bed with JR. It also gave JR something to threaten Katherine with by telling Bobby, and therefore advance the plot. However, from a characterization standpoint, it made very little sense.
There was a post once suggesting Katherine suffered from some degree of sexual repression which was partially her reason for going after Bobby. Anyone who knew him would know he'd never end up with Pam's sister. She became obsessed with someone she knew she could never have.

 

[tommie]

I agree. It was thrilling and fascinating when this powerful Ewing family found an equal opponent - like the Farlows first and when Barnes-Wentworth.
But in the long-term (after their first clashes) it got repetitive and stale because it one point you got more of the same and only rich people were there - in season 6 we additionally had Mark Graison and another powerful empire, and the biggest oil strike in history. I think as a counterpart they had this idea of introducing poor cousin Jamie and Lucy as a waitress to avoid things going over the top.

I prefered Cliff as an underdog, but I didn't mind him being rich. I didn't like how they "lobotomized him". (quote Ken Kercheval)

I think that always become the issue with long-running characters in general - it's hard to keep them fresh and not resort to it being repetitive. In a way, as much as I love Cliff and Ken Kercheval, he should've left with Pam, maybe even instead of Donna if they needed to cut the costs on the show.

 

[Chris2]

I also thought they foolishly threw away the Katherine character when there was a lot of story potential left. I wouldn’t have minded Bobby getting together with her for a while, driving Pam crazy, before he realizes how two faced she is. And then, as mentioned above, there’s the whole issue with Rebecca’s will. How about if Katherine finds out that Rebecca never divorced Digger and her marriage to Herbert was invalid? That could have had serious repercussions for that will.

I wonder if they would have kept Katherine around if Morgan Brittany hadn’t done that pilot (”Glitter”) in the spring of 1984, for what eventually became a short-lived series.

I also agree with those who say that making Cliff and Pam super rich was a mistake.

 

[Crimson]

I think that always become the issue with long-running characters in general - it's hard to keep them fresh and not resort to it being repetitive.

Cliff as a poor, scrappy underdog had been done for, what?, 5 to 6 seasons at that point. Most shows don't even last that long. Giving Cliff resources and a family behind him to equal the Ewings was a necessary change of pace to break repetition.

I find it odd though that a show that centered on a family feud never fully embraced that feud. It was basically just JR and Cliff, with other family members occasionally dipping in a toe and then backing away. For a show that ran 13 seasons, they could have done one all-in, every-one-involved season of feuding. When Rebecca got fired up, it seemed like the ideal start to that situation; but then they killed her and turned Katherine's resentment of Cliff into a full blown hatred.

 

[Billy Wall]

Cliff as a poor, scrappy underdog had been done for, what?, 5 to 6 seasons at that point. Most shows don't even last that long. Giving Cliff resources and a family behind him to equal the Ewings was a necessary change of pace to break repetition.

I find it odd though that a show that centered on a family feud never fully embraced that feud. It was basically just JR and Cliff, with other family members occasionally dipping in a toe and then backing away. For a show that ran 13 seasons, they could have done one all-in, every-one-involved season of feuding. When Rebecca got fired up, it seemed like the ideal start to that situation; but then they killed her and turned Katherine's resentment of Cliff into a full blown hatred.

As you know, Bobby and Pam were hogtied when it came to the feud. Heck, Pam sat at their dinner table most of the time. And what exactly was Miss Ellie to do? She had absolutely nothing to do with Ewing Oil. Even Jock had cooled down when it came to the feud.

Overall, I think they did it right by having JR and Cliff as the primary participants in the feud.

 

[Jimmy Todd]

As you know, Bobby and Pam were hogtied when it came to the feud. Heck, Pam sat at their dinner table most of the time. And what exactly was Miss Ellie to do? She had absolutely nothing to do with Ewing Oil. Even Jock had cooled down when it came to the feud.

Overall, I think they did it right by having JR and Cliff as the primary participants in the feud.

It was often presented, particularly by Cliff, Valene, and even Pam, that the were at odds with "the Ewings" when it always turned out to be just JR.
I would have liked to see more members drawn into the feud once in awhile. It would have been interesting if one of them felt compelled to take a side in a specific situation.

 

[Jimmy Todd]

As you know, Bobby and Pam were hogtied when it came to the feud. Heck, Pam sat at their dinner table most of the time. And what exactly was Miss Ellie to do? She had absolutely nothing to do with Ewing Oil. Even Jock had cooled down when it came to the feud.

Overall, I think they did it right by having JR and Cliff as the primary participants in the feud.

It was often presented, particularly by Cliff, Valene, and even Pam, that the were at odds with "the Ewings" when it always turned out to be just JR.
I would have liked to see more members drawn into the feud once in awhile. It would have been interesting if one of them felt compelled to take a side in a specific situation.