Mary Tyler Moore Show and Its Spin-Offs

[Crimson]

I must confess I find myself surprised by this. In large part, I suppose this is because MTM directly addressed Rhoda's faith several times (Some Of My Best Friends Are Rhoda springs to mind)

Directly, but delicately. Despite the sledge hammer approach towards social issues by AITF and MAUDE on the same network, CBS wasn't thrilled about MTM being too bold about Rhoda's Jewishness. Early in the production, a network exec passed a memo to the MTM producers reminding them that Middle America disliked "New Yorkers, Jews, and moustaches".

I'm in the latter part of Season One now, and still loving the series, but overall I enjoy Rhoda the wife less than I do Rhoda the wisecracking friend.

Rhoda went through an interesting evolution in MTM. After Valerie Harper "slimmed down" (odd, since she was never even plump) Rhoda's humor shifted from self-deprecating to outwardly focused towards the losers she dated. This was a drastic shift in personality, but done so smoothly one might hardly notice. The writers of RHODA never seemed to figure out how to transition Rhoda to being a happily married wife. Her humor no longer had the same outlets. Oddly, the show might have worked better if Joe & Rhoda were less happily married and he was the subject of her barbs.

Well, I wasn't planning to watch Rhoda and was sold after some encouragement, so I might be open to persuasion on Phyllis.

I haven't seen enough of PHYLLIS to try to sway you, but listen to tommie; if for no reason than I enjoy you being in American sitcomland. I see the entirety of PHYLLIS S1 is on Youtube and in what appears to be good quality. I might just watch it myself.

Incidentally, I just noticed you passed episodes of MTM that feature two of the characters I suspect were trials for possible Rhoda-replacements: Sherry (the hooker) and Charlene (the lounge singer). Both characters only stuck around for a few episodes and I've never seen confirmation that they were considered to be recurring parts, but they both stuck me as experiments to give Mary a more worldly friend.

 

[darkshadows38]

I loved The show Rhoda back in the 90's Nick at Nite before it turned to sh*t used to air MTM at 10:00 and Rhoda at 10:30 pm. i'd watch both and i also enjoyed the spin-off Phyliss as well sorry for my bad spelling if i spelled that wrong. they aired that one as well

 

[Seaviewer]

Very odd indeed. I could have sworn there was at least a throwaway line early in S5 about Rhoda having moved,

I do remember Mary remarking that now that she had two friends starting new lives, she should make changes, too. This as a precursor to her new apartment.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Early in the production, a network exec passed a memo to the MTM producers reminding them that Middle America disliked "New Yorkers, Jews, and moustaches".

Oh yikes. That's more than a little ugly.

It's incredible Harold Gould was cast at all since he (and Martin) ticked all three boxes. I'm very glad he was cast, though.

Oddly, the show might have worked better if Joe & Rhoda were less happily married and he was the subject of her barbs.

Blissful as they are most of the time, one of the things I enjoy is the undercurrent of volatility in the relationship. Both are strong-minded characters and already there have been a number of arguments. Last night I watched an episode in which Rhoda set ground rules about how they argue, to ensure it's healthy and respectful... and she still managed to bulldoze him.

I haven't seen enough of PHYLLIS to try to sway you, but listen to tommie; if for no reason than I enjoy you being in American sitcomland.

Thanks, and I'm feeling fairly certain I'll check out at least an episode or two with an open mind and see if it's for me. There are very few names in the cast I recognise, so it could go either way.

After her appearance on Columbo I did read about the murder of Barbara Colby, so it's interesting to now have more context that Phyllis's opening episodes were her final screen appearances.

I see the entirety of PHYLLIS S1 is on Youtube and in what appears to be good quality. I might just watch it myself.

At the moment, both seasons are showing up for me in different playlists, so that looks promising.

Incidentally, I just noticed you passed episodes of MTM that feature two of the characters I suspect were trials for possible Rhoda-replacements: Sherry (the hooker) and Charlene (the lounge singer).

Oh yes. As I watched I didn't make the Rhoda connection with those two, but I can completely see why you got that impression from them.

I do remember Mary remarking that now that she had two friends starting new lives, she should make changes, too. This as a precursor to her new apartment.

It looks like that was an early Season Six episode, so it was timely for Phyllis's departure, but very belated for Rhoda (although by that point at least Rhoda's wedding had been acknowledged over on MTM.

 

[tommie]

Well, I wasn't planning to watch Rhoda and was sold after some encouragement, so I might be open to persuasion on Phyllis.

Honestly, I can't exactly sell anyone on Phyllis , except it's on YouTube, has Cloris Leachman and is mildly amusing at the worst of times.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Honestly, I can't exactly sell anyone on Phyllis , except it's on YouTube, has Cloris Leachman and is mildly amusing at the worst of times.

That'll do me.

 

[Crimson]

has Cloris Leachman

I figure between Cloris and Lisa Gerritsen, the show at least has a good start. Without having seen it, the only way I can envision a show about Phyllis working well is by centering heavily on Bess's reactions to her mother although I suspect that's not the direction the show took.

That'll do me.

I don't know its state of availability, but what's your curiosity factor on LOU GRANT? I've never seen it and probably never will. A drama spun off from a sitcom is a novel concept, but a late 70s drama about newspaper reporters doesn't pique my interest too much. The only episode I'd be curious to see features the sole MTM character crossover (one you haven't met yet).

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Without having seen it, the only way I can envision a show about Phyllis working well is by centering heavily on Bess's reactions to her mother although I suspect that's not the direction the show took.

Phyllis works for me as a recurring almost peripheral character. She works best in small doses, I think, so I can't help feeling that an entire series centring round the character might just end up being too much (even on MTM, it might just be overkill if she appeared more regularly than she does).

That said, I feel she's become more enjoyable to watch as MTM has evolved. In addition, I get some hope from the fact that seeing her on Rhoda with a whole new cast of faces having their patience tested by her high-maintenance seemed to breathe new life into the character and make her seem even funnier.

With the right ensemble and a careful balance it could work, but I confess a little scepticism.

what's your curiosity factor on LOU GRANT?

Of the entire MTM franchise, Lou Grant is the only series I have any awareness of. I don't recall ever watching an episode (it was probably on past my bedtime anyway) but I did know the name, the premise and Ed Asner's face from when it was shown on British TV. I imagine this was by virtue of the fact it was still running so many years after the others had ended. Back then I had no idea it was connected to any sitcoms and it's possible the other series weren't even shown here (at this point, I find it surprising that I never saw or even heard of repeats of MTM at some point during the Eighties, but that's the case).

I don't mind the change of genre and quite like the idea of a procedural type series which appears to delve into some hot topics of the time, so would be up for watching it. It just depends if I have the will to make a hefty viewing commitment immediately after (potentially) more than 300 episodes of Mary, Rhoda and Phyllis.

I don't know its state of availability,

A quick glance at everyone's favourite video sharing site suggests a great deal of the series - perhaps the entire thing - is on the same channel as the Rhoda and Phyllis episodes.

 

[Crimson]

Phyllis works for me as a recurring almost peripheral character.

That said, I feel she's become more enjoyable to watch as MTM has evolved.

Phyllis didn't get much character evolution on MTM, but her function on the show changed drastically. Early on, she appeared often but her parts were small; she'd usually pop into Mary's apartment, insult Rhoda, and provide some info to get the plot moving. She herself was almost never involved in the plot. Then, as Cloris became a rather big star by the mid-70s, she appeared much less often but her appearances would be tailored to her. Those episodes were often hilarious because they paired Phyllis with characters she hadn't interacted with much before (selling Lou's house; getting Ted into politics; feuding with Sue Ann).

I always feel a little bad that Bess got shunted aside; I liked her interactions with Mary.

It just depends if I have the will to do make a hefty viewing commitment immediately after (potentially) more than 300 episodes of Mary, Rhoda and Phyllis.

My understanding is that LOU GRANT has almost no continuity with MTM; which makes sense, as one can hardly imagine Ted Baxter showing up in a hard hitting journalist drama. So, if you decide to visit LOU GRANT months or even years down the line, I don't think you'd miss any threads between the shows.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Phyllis didn't get much character evolution on MTM, but her function on the show changed drastically.

Very true. And you've pinpointed the reason for this perfectly.

I always feel a little bad that Bess got shunted aside; I liked her interactions with Mary.

Same here. Her appearance in the opening episode suggested she was practically a regular. I've wondered if she was originally intended to appear much more than she did but it was pared down because of Lisa Gerritsen's young age.

I'm guessing she'll have more to do on Phyllis. I've already had a a Bess-related spoiler about the series ending because the character summaries for Phyllis on the Wikipedia page are very in-depth.

Incidentally, there's a parallel between Bess appearing in the first MTM episode and Joe's son Donnie featuring in Rhoda's pilot. Donnie has a good reason for appearing so infrequently since he lives with his mother.

My understanding is that LOU GRANT has almost no continuity with MTM; which makes sense, as one can hardly imagine Ted Baxter showing up in a hard hitting journalist drama. So, if you decide to visit LOU GRANT months or even years down the line, I don't think you'd miss any threads between the shows.

With Lou Grant beginning after MTM had ended, I'd thought this might be the case. I might well end up coming back to it after a gap.





Incidentally, I've just read that CBS aired Rhoda's first season episodes at 9:30pm, after Maude. While it has a good lead-in, it still seems very late for a series that seems so family-friendly. At that time of night I'd expect something with a little more edge. It was rectified from Season Two with an 8pm slot which seems more appropriate.

 

[Crimson]

Her appearance in the opening episode suggested she was practically a regular. I've wondered if she was originally intended to appear much more than she did but it was pared down because of Lisa Gerritsen's young age.

That's possible. Even mature, professional child actors come with complications that hinder production. Mostly though, I think she was just tied to Cloris; as Leachman appeared less often, so did Gerritsen. Of course, the writers could have done some stories with Mary & Bess -- I rather liked Mary in the "aunt"/"big sister" role -- but they didn't seem to think of it.

Gerritsen only appeared in 24 out of 48 episodes of PHYLLIS, so that show isn't as focused on the mother-daughter dynamic as I'd hope.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Mostly though, I think she was just tied to Cloris; as Leachman appeared less often, so did Gerritsen.

Yes, I'm sure this didn't help. Even so, Phyllis was in three-and-a-half times more episodes than Bess, so there's still quite a wide margin between even those two.

I'd have loved more Mary/Bess episodes as you suggested. Their relationship was really sweet.

Gerritsen only appeared in 24 out of 48 episodes of PHYLLIS, so that show isn't as focused on the mother-daughter dynamic as I'd hope.

Interesting. Not being familiar with many of the Phyllis cast I have very little idea of what the energy in that series will be like. And I like that it's unknown.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Rhoda
Season One
Good-Bye Charlie / Guess What I Got You For The Holidays / Whattya Think It’s There For? / Not Made For Each Other / Strained Interlude / Everything I Have Is Yours… Almost / Chest Pains / Windows By Rhoda / A Nice Warm Rut / Ida The Elf / Along Comes Mary



The latter part of Season One has been as good as I could have hoped considering the new circumstances. Married life - so far at least - hasn’t dulled the character Rhoda as much as I feared it might.

As previously mentioned, it helps that her relationship with Joe isn’t idyllic. There’s still some fire there, and some friction too. Rhoda’s taken a dislike to Joe’s best friend, been concerned over his emotional wellbeing when she finds out he’s seeing a psychiatrist, faced the prospect of Joe’s business going under and had many a domestic disagreement. At the same time she’s begun carving out a life and career for herself, just as she would have done had Joe not been in the picture. But it helps, too, that Joe himself is very watchable.

The roles of characters like Ida and especially Brenda haven’t been as diminished as they could have been, which is another good thing. I do miss Brenda and Rhoda living together, but since they’re still in the same building and visiting one another’s apartment all day long the dynamic is still more or less intact.

Appropriately for its lead character, the series rarely feels too cosy or safe. Even Mary’s surprise visit in the final episode of the year brought friction as she interrupted a planned weekend getaway

Not much to say about the episodes themselves, other than they’re all working for me and I’m looking forward to beginning Season Two in due course.

 

[Crimson]

Not much to say about the episodes themselves, other than they’re all working for me and I’m looking forward to beginning Season Two in due course.

Other than a few episodes, I haven't seen RHODA in (I'll conservatively estimate) 20 years so I have few specific memories of episodes. I don't even recall the Mary episode well, although I may rewatch it in the midst of my MTM viewing.

Since the shows have branched, you seem more invested in Rhoda & RHODA than in Mary & MTM. Going into the show with relatively low expectations and no preconceived notions, it's good that you've been able to enjoy it. I was reading the RHODA article in The Great TV Sitcom Book and it really enforces the bias that RHODA never found its footing. A contemporaneous quote from one of the show's lead writers:

"We all suddenly realized we were getting bored with our own show. Maybe the audience wasn't bored -- yet -- but we figured some time in the future it was inevitable they way we were going. Everything was so nice for Rhoda in her happily married life. She had no vulnerability; she wasn't the underdog anymore. When in doubt, we'd go to Brenda for a script idea."

The book also really leans into the notion that early Rhoda (and Valerie) had been "fat" and "schlubby". Standards sure have changed in the past 50 years, because even pre-dieting Rhoda never looked even remotely overweight.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Since the shows have branched, you seem more invested in Rhoda & RHODA than in Mary & MTM. Going into the show with relatively low expectations and no preconceived notions, it's good that you've been able to enjoy it.

Yes, I'd say this is all very true. It's difficult to pinpoint why, but something about Rhoda is appealing to me more at this point.

I've continued to enjoy MTM when watching it but, for whatever reason, after each break it's difficult to muster up much enthusiasm about returning to it. I wrapped up Rhoda's first season relatively quickly but still have fifteen or sixteen episodes left of the same season's MTM episodes which - ahead of time - feels like a bit of a chore.

I was reading the RHODA article in The Great TV Sitcom Book and it really enforces the bias that RHODA never found its footing. A contemporaneous quote from one of the show's lead writers

Thanks for this. What's a little bizarre is that, despite the lack of interest in the spinoff, things got still more diluted with the Phyllis spinoff.

The book also really leans into the notion that early Rhoda (and Valerie) had been "fat" and "schlubby". Standards sure have changed in the past 50 years, because even pre-dieting Rhoda never looked even remotely overweight.

Absolutely. And yet it's always seemed to me that more voluptuous figures were desirable at the time.

 

[Crimson]

. I wrapped up Rhoda's first season relatively quickly but still have fifteen or sixteen episodes left of the same season's MTM episodes which - ahead of time - feels like a bit of a chore.

Do you often binge two shows alternately? Seems a bit like reading a few chapters of a novel then switching to another novel and then back again. When I binge, I really settle into the vibe of the show. I wonder if your reaction would have been different if you had finished MTM before moving onto RHODA or watched them alternately by episode as they aired.

In any case, I hope you continue to enjoy MTM. Even though I think the show lost some of its spark after Rhoda left, I enjoy it to the end.

With your RHODA detour, I think I passed you in my MTM viewing. There is, in fact, an episode that pairs Mary with Bess (minus Phyllis) that i had forgotten about. Pretty sure it's the only one but its good to see the writers remembered the relationship.

despite the lack of interest in the spinoff, things got still more diluted with the Phyllis spinoff

If the producers had been reluctant to spin off Rhoda, they were downright resistant to a Phyllis centric show. They recognized the difficulty of building a show around a character whose defining trait was being a pain in the ass. Worse, Cloris herself was rather a pain in the ass. A Method actress, she could hold up production for considerable time while fretting over her performance. And just because she rehearsed a scene a certain way was no guarantee that's what she would do during filming. The MTM producers tolerated it because she only appeared sporadically; the payoff was worth the pain. But the saw the difficulty of building a weekly production schedule around Cloris' technique.

But there wasn't much choice. By the mid 70s, Cloris was at a career high. She had won a few Emmys and an Oscar, and great success in YOUNG FRANKENSTEIN. If the producers didn't give her a show, another company would have.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Do you often binge two shows alternately?

Not in this way, no. The norm for me is to devote myself pretty much entirely to one show (beyond the one series that's incorporated into my viewing schedule longer-term).

After I tested the water with the spinoff between seasons, I decided to continue but knew I wanted to watch the crossover episodes for the wedding close to one another, which required watching the beginning of the MTM season then switching to Rhoda. I'm not sure how I'll do it after S5 of MTM - especially with Phyllis potentially coming into the mix, but I'll probably still alternate to a lesser degree.

I'm sure you're right to suspect that it would have been a different reaction from me had I watched all of MTM before Rhoda.

In any case, I hope you continue to enjoy MTM. Even though I think the show lost some of its spark after Rhoda left, I enjoy it to the end.

Thanks. I have a feeling I will find something to enjoy all the way along, even as I simultaneously feel the series may not satisfy quite as much as it did in the first three or four years.

With your RHODA detour, I think I passed you in my MTM viewing.

Oh... that's exciting.

There is, in fact, an episode that pairs Mary with Bess (minus Phyllis) that i had forgotten about. Pretty sure it's the only one but its good to see the writers remembered the relationship.

That's great. And perfect timing considering the discussion of the last few days.

They recognized the difficulty of building a show around a character whose defining trait was being a pain in the ass.

When you said that, I thought of Maude.

Worse, Cloris herself was rather a pain in the ass. A Method actress, she could hold up production for considerable time while fretting over her performance. And just because she rehearsed a scene a certain way was no guarantee that's what she would do during filming. The MTM producers tolerated it because she only appeared sporadically; the payoff was worth the pain. But the saw the difficulty of building a weekly production schedule around Cloris' technique.

I was curious about the traits of some of the actors and the dynamics behind the camera so it's good to get this background. Now I find myself wondering if the series was as difficult to put together as the producers feared ahead of time.

 

[Crimson]

I'm sure you're right to suspect that it would have been a different reaction from me had I watched all of MTM before Rhoda.

My completely unsolicited advice: finish RHODA and then go back to MTM. You're clearly enjoying RHODA and possibly making yourself resentful every time you interrupt it for MTM. There's no continuity between the shows at this point to make switching back and forth desirable. You may even find the famous MTM finale more emotionally gratifying if you save it for the very end (possibly even after PHYLLIS).

When you said that, I thought of Maude.

I feel like there will be structural similarities between MAUDE and PHYLLIS -- both centered on overly dramatic, domineering and not always likeable main characters.

I was curious about the traits of some of the actors and the dynamics behind the camera so it's good to get this background

Georgia Engel said the actors of MTM were very similar to the characters they portrayed. The writers took the actors basic personalities and exaggerated them for comedic effect. She included herself in this assessment but said Betty White was the sole exception.

Now I find myself wondering if the series was as difficult to put together as the producers feared ahead of time.

From what I read, Cloris was indeed exacting on the set; probably moreso because she was the star. She was apparently big on reworking scenes to center them more on herself. How very Phyllis.

But she was also said to be very warm to the cast, which suffered several tragedies in the short two season run.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

My completely unsolicited advice: finish RHODA and then go back to MTM. You're clearly enjoying RHODA and possibly making yourself resentful every time you interrupt it for MTM. There's no continuity between the shows at this point to make switching back and forth desirable. You may even find the famous MTM finale more emotionally gratifying if you save it for the very end (possibly even after PHYLLIS).

Thanks. This is something I hadn't considered so I'll give it some thought. I'm pretty sure I'm going to finish MTM's fifth season next as I the neat and tidy part of my brain wouldn't feel right about leaving mid-season for a lengthy period. Even though I'm enjoying Rhoda more, I have still found enjoyment in MTM when I've got round to watching, so I may end up still alternating. My current thinking is I'll see how I enjoy the rest of the S5 episodes and that will help me decide how to play it from there.

I feel like there will be structural similarities between MAUDE and PHYLLIS -- both centered on overly dramatic, domineering and not always likeable main characters.

I can completely see that. Since I did (mostly) enjoy Maude this gives me a sliver of hope for Phyllis.

She was apparently big on reworking scenes to center them more on herself. How very Phyllis.

Isn't it just.

But she was also said to be very warm to the cast, which suffered several tragedies in the short two season run.

I had read there were at least three deaths across the main or recurring cast during this time (albeit two of those were very elderly).

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Mary Tyler Moore
Season Five
Not A Christmas Story / What Are Friends For? / A Boy’s Best Friend / A Son For Murray / Neighbours* / A Girl Like Mary / An Affair To Forget / Mary Richards: Producer / The System / Phyllis Whips Inflation / The Shame Of The Cities / Marriage Minneapolis Style / You Try To Be A Nice Guy / You Can’t Lose ‘Em All / Ted Baxter’s Famous Broadcasters’ School / Anyone Who Hates Kids And Dogs


Rhoda
Season Two
Kiss Your Épaulettes* Goodbye / Rhoda Meets The Ex-Wife / Ida’s Doctor / Mucho, Macho / The Party / Brenda’s Unemployment / With Friends Like These…



In good news, taking a month-long break from MTM has increased my enjoyment of that series. I still feel it’s past its best at this point, and there’s not a whole lot of new ground. Crucially, though, the series can still be relied on to entertain, which is its primary function.

Mary’s home life is working as well as I could hope at this point where there’s no Rhoda and barely any Phyllis (who has now made her last appearance anyway). Mary’s flat becoming an extension of the office, with various colleagues and their families dropping in at all hours at least leans into the familiar rather than trying to force to much change.

This change has particularly made me realise how well Mary Sue is stepping into Phyllis’s shoes. Coming in and criticising Mary’s decor or housekeeping skills was previously Phyllis’s forte so Mary Sue doing this feels very comfortable and familiar. It helps that Betty White excels at comic passive-aggression, so these are some of the moments I’ve enjoyed most.

It was a bit of a surprise to come back to the series with fresh eyes and suddenly realise I don’t find Murray very likeable. At this point, his main function seems to be making bitchy put-downs about/towards Ted. Earlier on I felt there was more balance: Murray frequently found Ted frustrating but there was also a kind of fondness there. Now it just feels like constant snarking and one-upmanship at Ted’s expense, and it’s not a good look.

Not helping this situation, the most significant Murray episode during this run was one that started promisingly but ultimately rang hollow. Murray’s feeling of inadequacy over not having produced a son was the basis for a good story, particularly when he hadn’t even broached the subject with Marie. As the story went on, though, the less-rational aspects of his feelings were at best skirted round, and at worst indulged by all involved. It didn’t sit well with me at all that the “solution” was Murray and Marie effortlessly adopting a random mail order son. Not only did this trivialise the lengthy, challenging and emotionally difficult process of adopting, it was also hugely dismissive of the daughters the couple already had. Everything was fixed once Murray had a son upon whom he could lavish his attention. And who, by the way, I don’t believe was mentioned again in the dozen episodes that followed. I found the whole thing quite shallow and ugly.

It was good to see Barbara Colby back for her second and final appearance, before her all-too-brief Phyllis role.

It’s nice that Rhoda is still getting the occasional mention: usually Mary missing having her around. This is making up for the lack of reference in the immediate wake of her departure. Also, Mary’s one-sided phone call with the off-screen Ida was great. I was impressed how just Mary’s side of the conversation could capture the spirit of Ida.

Back in Rhoda’s own series, things are ticking over quite nicely. Already, coming back to the series feels like reconnecting with friends. And Season Two certainly led with strength, with the first two episodes guest-starring, respectively, Ruth Gordon and Joan Van Ark.

Ruth is best-known to me for two dark characters: Minnie Castevet in Rosemary’s Baby, and a classic Columbo killer in the episode Try And Catch Me. In both cases she played an ostensibly scatty and harmless eccentric who had so much more going on beneath the surface, and that probably also applies to her performance as Carlton The Doorman’s mother, who was happy to exploit Rhoda’s guilt to get her son’s job back. Incidentally, I’ve been visualising Carlton as black, so this shook my head-canon a little.

It’s a nice (if clearly unintentional) touch that the two exes of Joe’s we’ve met have been played by future night-time soap heroines. And fun to see both Joan and Pamela Bellwood playing confident, vampish types when they would become best-known for playing vulnerable heroines who would be walked over by their respective series’ confident vamps.






* With these words being part of the title, the purist in me is torn between spelling them as written in the series’ native country or as I would usually spell it. I've gone with the latter but there are purist arguments for either.