Mary Tyler Moore Show and Its Spin-Offs

[Bobby Southworth]

While I prefer Mary's first apartment to the second, I do feel the change in scenery was at least somewhat necessary for the show. The original apartment would continue echoing memories of Rhoda and even Phyllis, and clearly neither Valerie Harper nor Cloris Leachman were returning to MARY TYLER MOORE full-time, owing to their separate commitments to their own spinoffs.

Changing where Mary lived I think helped ease the incorporation of Sue Ann and Georgette into the ensemble. It might've been a little jarring to see either of those ladies waltzing in and out of Mary's original bachelorette pad like Rhoda and Phyllis had done.

But, that's just my opinion.

I think you are probably correct on this, for exactly the reasons that you stated. For the show to move forward, it probably wouldn't have worked as well at the old apartment setting, People missed Rhoda, and I suppose to a lesser extent(well, in my case), Phyllis, but Phyllis also wasn't around nearly as much as Rhoda, well after the 2nd season. On the other hand, though, as often as the folks from the newsroom stopped by the new apartment, that might have been enough to make the audience accept no longer having Rhoda and Phyllis in the old apartment setting. It's hard to say for certain. I also think, like everything else about the show we might not have liked losing, it was kind of a natural evolution. Mary had been at WJM for 5 years when she moved, it was time for her to be, "movin' on up". Did I like the 2nd apartment as much as the first? No. It was pretty nondescript, while the first one had character, and a certain warmth. Again, a woman working her way up in the world probably wouldn't stay in a studio apartment forever, but there wouldn't be anything wrong with it if she did, just not very realistic.

Georgette was introduced as a co worker/friend of Rhoda originally so her coming to Mary's original apartment wasn't out of left field, but the one note Sue Ann Nevins wouldn't have been caught dead stopping by for a cup of coffee vs Mary's newer 'adult' apartment.

Also, another unpopular opinion... but Rhoda's spin-off was only good when she was married to Joe. Once she divorced Joe, she basically became a divorced Mary Richards esque individual losing most of her bohemian charm with her sister Brenda becoming the Rhoda to her Mary. Ratings dropped when the marriage ended so viewers at the time were in agreement that married Rhoda was what they wanted.. not a divorced Rhoda.

I actually agree with that unpopular opinion, just based on what I've seen of Rhoda. The Joe seasons seem better. It might have worked better had she just not been married to Joe at all, but then I think them making the show primarily about a married couple could have worked, but that kind of limited what Rhoda could do on her own in the series.

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

Georgette was introduced as a co worker/friend of Rhoda originally so her coming to Mary's original apartment wasn't out of left field, but the one note Sue Ann Nevins wouldn't have been caught dead stopping by for a cup of coffee vs Mary's newer 'adult' apartment.

Also, another unpopular opinion... but Rhoda's spin-off was only good when she was married to Joe. Once she divorced Joe, she basically became a divorced Mary Richards esque individual losing most of her bohemian charm with her sister Brenda becoming the Rhoda to her Mary. Ratings dropped when the marriage ended so viewers at the time were in agreement that married Rhoda was what they wanted.. not a divorced Rhoda.

I tend to agree that the show was not as good after the split.
I might not be the best source on this. I never liked David Groh on Rhoda (didn't like him on General Hospital either)
I thought Valerie Harper was good on MTM, good in the early Rhoda episodes, but never cared for her other work (ie her sitcom, which I thought was better after she departed - I liked Sandy Duncan more)

 

[Bobby Southworth]

But they did, especially in Season 7. Georgia Engel went from "with" to no "with," and Betty White went to "And".

I will have to go back and look at those season 7 closing credits. I'm not doubting you, but I could have sworn it was still "co-starring" Ed Asner", Gavin MacLeod, Ted Knight, and then "with" Georgia Engel "and" Betty White. There might have been some episodes where this wasn't the case..it's a little fuzzy at the moment. I just always thought by season 6 at least, they should have been on the same level as Ed, Gavin, and Ted, but they weren't in every episode like they were, so, I guess that could be why they weren't given the upgrade(if in fact they weren't??)

I also kinda wish the intro had been updated again after season 4/5,(other than the revamp we got of the music in season 7), but TPTB probably thought their intro of Mary roaming about the city was top notch, and it was, but maybe just a short clip or two from an episode(as the crew certainly wasn't going to make another trip to Minneapolis for location shooting) would have been a nice nod to Georgia and Betty.

 

[Bobby Southworth]

Another thing I'm sure no one cares about, but I believe in the first run episodes of season 2, Cloris Leachman wasn't in every intro, only the episodes she appeared in, and the ones without her featured a shot of just Mary turning and laughing instead(a shot from "Support Your Local Mother"). That version has long since been lost, probably since it went to DVD.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

I'm not doubting you, but I could have sworn it was still "co-starring" Ed Asner", Gavin MacLeod, Ted Knight, and then "with" Georgia Engel "and" Betty White.

Engel's "with" was removed, as I recall, in Season 7. The "with" is a secondary billing because she wasn't an original character. Betty White (with a longer career) started out with "guest star" billing, removed once she became a regular, and eventually got an "And" (which is more-or-less commiserate with "co-starring.")

Whether those were gifted to the newer actors or negotiated by their agents is anybody's guess.

And they're all dead now, so none of them can dispute my story.

 

[Daniel Avery]

I was watching Airplane! recently and saw Joyce Bulifant as one of the passengers. She played the mother of the kid who was on her way to get some kind of life-saving operation. It had never clicked with me that Bulifant played Gavin MacLeod/Murray's wife on MTM, and that the little girl in Airplane! was played by Jill Whelan, who ended up playing Gavin MacLeod/Captain Stubing's daughter on Love Boat.

 

[Seaviewer]

At the time, and certainly now, Rhoda's absence in MTM is glossed over in the parent series' episodes from early-Season 5, such that newer viewers today could be confused about what happened to her, other than a brief reference to a wedding.

That's pretty much my point. At the time, it was not necessary to explain Rhoda's absence because we were watching her on her own series.

Also, another unpopular opinion... but Rhoda's spin-off was only good when she was married to Joe. Once she divorced Joe, she basically became a divorced Mary Richards esque individual losing most of her bohemian charm with her sister Brenda becoming the Rhoda to her Mary. Ratings dropped when the marriage ended so viewers at the time were in agreement that married Rhoda was what they wanted.. not a divorced Rhoda.

Once again referring to "the time", Rhoda's marriage was not that popular. That's why they divorced them; they thought they could get back to the independent free-spirited Rhoda, but it only made things worse.

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

I was watching Airplane! recently and saw Joyce Bulifant as one of the passengers. She played the mother of the kid who was on her way to get some kind of life-saving operation. It had never clicked with me that Bulifant played Gavin MacLeod/Murray's wife on MTM, and that the little girl in Airplane! was played by Jill Whelan, who ended up playing Gavin MacLeod/Captain Stubing's daughter on Love Boat.

Joyce Bulifant is now 88 tears young
Always found her to be a likeable actress.
Trivia- She was the original choice for Carol Brady on "The Brady Bunch", and I believe that Gene Hackman was the original choice for Mike Brady

Joyce Bulifant - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

How a beloved sitcom almost permanently altered Gene Hackman’s career

A crossroads moment.

faroutmagazine.co.uk

 

[Soaplover]

Once again referring to "the time", Rhoda's marriage was not that popular. That's why they divorced them; they thought they could get back to the independent free-spirited Rhoda, but it only made things worse.

52 million people tuning in to see Rhoda's wedding episodes, and top ten placement for the first two seasons where Rhoda was married would tell me that it was a popular concept. And falling out of the top 20 in season 3 when Rhoda/Joe split would also tell me that a divorced Rhoda wasn't something people wanted to see.. especially in the 70s.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

52 million people tuning in to see Rhoda's wedding episodes, and top ten placement for the first two seasons where Rhoda was married would tell me that it was a popular concept. And falling out of the top 20 in season 3 when Rhoda/Joe split would also tell me that a divorced Rhoda wasn't something people wanted to see.. especially in the 70s.

Viewers were not that shocked by divorce in 1976 television (back in 1970, when MTM premiered just six years earlier, it was much more so).

What made Rhoda's & Joe's divorce so tiresome was that it felt like a desperate measure, arbitrary, and exactly what it was: a forced attempt to shake things up because RHODA was never really working.. Sure, the ratings had been great in the beginning, the snarky TV sidekick of the era getting her own spin-off (which almost never really works, especially since the writers always water-down the persona once they get their own show -- and you knew that would happen here, without fail). And Rhoda's wedding, only 8 episodes into the first season (as dictated by CBS for "sweeps" purposes), garnered record numbers for a TV nuptial. But RHODA never really knew what it was, or wanted to be.

And, yes, the divorce just made it worse. Embracing late-'70s disco life as a Manhattan single could have worked, but it didn't; it was just more unfocused see-what-sticks-to-the-wall-and-then-use-what-doesn't desperation. There was just so little creative clarity in RHODA from the outset, things getting even more misguided as the series went along and tried to make adjustments.

 

[ClassyCo]

I've never seen much of RHODA, but considering what I've read, it seems like a show that changed direction so often that it would give a casual viewer whiplash.

 

[Seaviewer]

52 million people tuning in to see Rhoda's wedding episodes, and top ten placement for the first two seasons where Rhoda was married would tell me that it was a popular concept. And falling out of the top 20 in season 3 when Rhoda/Joe split would also tell me that a divorced Rhoda wasn't something people wanted to see.. especially in the 70s.

Yes, the wedding was popular. The following marriage became increasingly stale.

 

[Chris2]

Most of the MTM-produced series in the 70s were the workplace/domestic life hybrids. It seeemd like the producers of Rhoda didn’t want to have much of a workplace component to avoid comparisons with the parent show. But they didn’t know what to do with the character of Rhoda in a domestic sitcom. They kept floundering around with most of the supporting cast, aside from stalwart Julie Kavner, coming and going. They’d have a character on for an episode and then they’d suddenly be recurring, like Rhoda’s friend Myrna. It reeked of desperation.

 

[Jimmy Todd]

Apparently they made Nancy Walker a regular too boost ratings.

 

[Crimson]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2034685477110821084

Interesting that MTM ended only 4 days after THREE'S COMPANY started. That seems awfully symbolic of something.

 

[Soaplover]

Most of the MTM-produced series in the 70s were the workplace/domestic life hybrids. It seeemd like the producers of Rhoda didn’t want to have much of a workplace component to avoid comparisons with the parent show. But they didn’t know what to do with the character of Rhoda in a domestic sitcom. They kept floundering around with most of the supporting cast, aside from stalwart Julie Kavner, coming and going. They’d have a character on for an episode and then they’d suddenly be recurring, like Rhoda’s friend Myrna. It reeked of desperation.

I liked that Myrna and Susan (her two high school chums) would come in for visits the first two seasons or so. Dropping them + losing the domestic marital element kind of isolated Rhoda in a way that didn't occur with Mary.

Mary had the work element and moving up at the company as a good way to keep her character fresh.. including occasional boyfriends and gatherings at her new apartment. The attempts at a new Rhoda/Phyllis vibe at the new apartment didn't work although I commend them for recognizing true comic talent by having those two attempts be Ms. Marshall & MKP.

 

[Crimson]

The attempts at a new Rhoda/Phyllis vibe at the new apartment didn't work although I commend them for recognizing true comic talent by having those two attempts be Ms. Marshall & MKP

The MKP character annoyed me in her single appearance and I was glad to not see her again. I thought Penny's Paula had interesting potential but it's hard to say if she would have clicked as Mary's friend. She only had two appearances, a brief into and then an episode that centered her around Lou more than Mary. What was interesting about Paula to me is that she seemed to be what Rhoda had thought she was, a bit of a sadsack. If I have a single complaint about early MTM, it's the ridiculous notion that Rhoda was the dumpy one. No amount of schlubby sweatshirts or Phyllis putdowns could disguise the fact that Valerie was gorgeous and, what, at most 5 lbs "overweight"? Whatever Penny's great gifts, conventional beauty was not one of them and she did "morose loser" pretty well.

Mind you, I'm glad Penny hit it big with L&S, but I'd have liked to see her on MTM longer.