Was Ray Really Likable?

Luke_Krebbs_Ewing

Telly Talk Champion
I really liked Ray until he started getting all "I'm the man of the house" with Donna, after that I felt that he lost a huge amount of his charm. That said, as early as the original mini series he was quite happy to help set up Pam for JR.

In the later years when he got together with Jenna I found him unwatchable as I really disliked him.

The same for me too. Jenna was a bland character and unfortunately so was Ray at this point in time.

Leonard Katzman did a disservice to the show when he got rid of Susan Howard.

If any character needed to be shown the door, it should've been Priscilla Presley's version of Jenna Wade, not Donna. :(
 

DallasFanForever

Telly Talk Supreme
I think Ray was a very complex character. There were times I felt he was likable and there were times he could be a real jerk, yet even in those jerk moments he could somehow still make you like him on some level and perhaps even pity him despite the way he was lashing out so yes, I think he was a very likable character.
 

Mustard

Telly Talk TV Fanatic
Not the good guy like Bobby. Not the bad guy you loved to hate like JR. But somewhere in between. Also I think his flaws made him interesting and you saw how he had to struggle to succeed. So yes Ray was likable for the most part.
Ray was also flawed in a different way to Gary. Gary would beat himself up for his faults, but he rarely lacked self-esteem like Ray did. Gary would be confident, do something, mess up, attack himself for his mistakes, then move on with a certain confidence still. Ray would do something like it's his macho duty to do so, mess up, attack himself and let self-pity overwhelm him, take it out on others (often Donna) while self-pitying himself some more. I think this is due to Gary growing up as a Ewing, while Ray never truly felt he belonged.
 

Karin

Moderator
Staff Member
That's an interesting analysis of how Ray and Gary were flawed in different ways. I think you're on to something when you say that it might be due to the difference of being raised as a Ewing or being the illegimate son. Gary always knew he came from a prominent family.

I think another difference between them is also that Donna didn't seem to believe Ray could do things, while Abby was pushing Gary to take on new challenges. She saw the potential in him and believed in him. I think that also gave Gary self-confidence knowing that a woman like that was behind him.
 

Jimmy Todd

Telly Talk Mega Star
I think there is the essence of good in most of them, but the bad presents itself a lot too. Miss Ellie?
Miss Ellie is a wonderful character, but flawed in that she openly favored Gary over her other boys, which is odd for a mother. However, she did admit to her faults to Gary and Val, so she deserves credit for that. It's not easy to be a parent and to admit you faults. So I would put Miss Ellie in the category of basically good but flawed as we all are:)
 

CeeCee72

Telly Talk Star
I think there is the essence of good in most of them, but the bad presents itself a lot too. Miss Ellie?
Ellie is "mostly" good. But she very often pitted her sons against each other. She also sat back and did nothing while JR and Sue Ellen were in open warfare, having affairs, getting drunk, etc while they were traumatizing a child being raised in her house. She was complicit in stealing Lucy from Gary and Val. She gave Southfork to Bobby, choosing to discard the claims of her other two sons.
 

Billy Wall

Telly Talk Dream Maker
Miss Ellie is a wonderful character, but flawed in that she openly favored Gary over her other boys, which is odd for a mother. However, she did admit to her faults to Gary and Val, so she deserves credit for that. It's not easy to be a parent and to admit you faults. So I would put Miss Ellie in the category of basically good but flawed as we all are:)

Miss Ellie explained that. JR and Bobby was more Jock’s and Gary was more hers. She also told Jock “you may have loved him, but you never cared for him.” That’s a powerful statement.

If you’re gonna get on Miss Ellie, Jock was far worse in his favoritism, particularly of Bobby. Jock immediately took to Ray, something he never did with Gary. Miss Ellie also points that out.
 

Billy Wall

Telly Talk Dream Maker
Ellie is "mostly" good. But she very often pitted her sons against each other. She also sat back and did nothing while JR and Sue Ellen were in open warfare, having affairs, getting drunk, etc while they were traumatizing a child being raised in her house. She was complicit in stealing Lucy from Gary and Val. She gave Southfork to Bobby, choosing to discard the claims of her other two sons.

I agree with everything you said, but who to give Southfork to is complicated. Let’s cross Gary off the list because he doesn’t want Southfork. JR would have turned Southfork into an oil field the first chance he got and Miss Ellie knew it. But on the other hand, JR’s son has Ewing AND Southworth blood in his veins. That used to be VERY important to Miss Ellie. She knows that Bobby would run the ranch the same way it’s always been run, BUT unlike JR, Bobby didn’t have a son that’s related by blood to will it to. Was Miss Ellie OK with that? Her giving the ranch to Bobby, where does that leave John Ross. That should have been JR’s argument.

New Dallas catches a lot of criticism, but this is one thing it kind of corrected. No offense to Christopher, but John Ross has more of a birthright to Southfork.
 

Karin

Moderator
Staff Member
The question of Southfork is complex. I remember in Coundrum Gary was the oldest son and inherited Southfork and he turned it into a housing area. Honestly I think that was completely out of character for Gary to do. Anyone who has seen Knots Landing knows that Gary loves the land. He even got his own ranch "Westfork" where he was really happy. So there is just no way Gary would destroy Southfork if he had inherited it.
 

CeeCee72

Telly Talk Star
I agree with everything you said, but who to give Southfork to is complicated. Let’s cross Gary off the list because he doesn’t want Southfork. JR would have turned Southfork into an oil field the first chance he got and Miss Ellie knew it. But on the other hand, JR’s son has Ewing AND Southworth blood in his veins. That used to be VERY important to Miss Ellie. She knows that Bobby would run the ranch the same way it’s always been run, BUT unlike JR, Bobby didn’t have a son that’s related by blood to will it to. Was Miss Ellie OK with that? Her giving the ranch to Bobby, where does that leave John Ross. That should have been JR’s argument.

New Dallas catches a lot of criticism, but this is one thing it kind of corrected. No offense to Christopher, but John Ross has more of a birthright to Southfork.
Maybe it's because I have an adopted sister, but I see no difference between blood children and adopted children when it comes to birthright.

And don't forget, if you are talking birthright, Gary had four children by the time Ellie gave Bobby the ranch (including Lucy), Lucas had been born (blood son of Booby, adopted by Ray), and JR had two additional sons we knew of. If it had been solely about birthright, she would have been concerned about ALL of her grandchildren.
 

Karin

Moderator
Staff Member
Actually Gary only had three children when Miss Ellie gave Bobby the ranch. Lucy, Bobby and Betsy.
His last daughter hadn't been born yet. We didn't even know about her until the reunion mini tv-series in 1997.

Also I am not sure if it's right to call Molly Gary's daughter. Because it was made clear that she was not going to be raised by Gary but by Brian. So it's possible that Brian would adopt her since he was having another baby with Kate. So I am not sure Gary would ever fill the father role for her.
 
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Billy Wall

Telly Talk Dream Maker
Maybe it's because I have an adopted sister, but I see no difference between blood children and adopted children when it comes to birthright.

And don't forget, if you are talking birthright, Gary had four children by the time Ellie gave Bobby the ranch (including Lucy), Lucas had been born (blood son of Booby, adopted by Ray), and JR had two additional sons we knew of. If it had been solely about birthright, she would have been concerned about ALL of her grandchildren.

Miss Ellie once said that a ranch should be run by a man (her words, not mine) which cancels out Lucy. Gary had very little to do with the family, so that kind of cancels him and his kids out. And bloodlines was very important to people of Jock’s and Miss Ellie’s age. Miss Ellie once got mad that Ray was “running her daddy’s ranch without a drop of Southworth blood.” As for Lucas, Bobby had very little to with him. He was being raised in Europe of all places. Bobby, then John Ross and his kids would have been ideal, at least in Miss Ellie’s eyes.
 

Mustard

Telly Talk TV Fanatic
Actually Gary only had three children when Miss Ellie gave Bobby the ranch. Lucy, Bobby and Betsy.
His last daughter hadn't been born yet. We didn't even know about her until the reunion mini tv-series in 1997.

Also I am not sure if it's right to call Molly Gary's daughter. Because it was made clear that she was not going to be raised by Gary but by Brian. So it's possible that Brian would adopt her since he was having another baby with Kate. So I am not sure Gary would ever fill the father role for her.
Molly was born in 1993. Gary eventually became a proper father to Bobby and Betsy, so I'm sure he'd have done the same with Molly in time. Brian didn't like it much (nor Val), but it's obvious what Kate wanted.
 
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Karin

Moderator
Staff Member
It's intersting how we interpret things differently. I am not so sure Gary would have been a father to Molly since I got the impression that Gary & Val thought it was better if Brian raised her. Then again it's been a few years since I last watched "Back to the Cul-de-sac" so maybe I remember it wrong. :think:

Miss Ellie gave Bobby Southfork in 1991. So like I said that was before Molly was born.
 

J. R.'s Piece

Telly Talk Star
Maybe it's because I have an adopted sister, but I see no difference between blood children and adopted children when it comes to birthright.

And don't forget, if you are talking birthright, Gary had four children by the time Ellie gave Bobby the ranch (including Lucy), Lucas had been born (blood son of Booby, adopted by Ray), and JR had two additional sons we knew of. If it had been solely about birthright, she would have been concerned about ALL of her grandchildren.
Of course there are no differences legally. My half-siblings are vermin though. And will-wise, their scheming, swarming, muscling in on my action and trying to get a slice of the pie before it was too late resulted in they and their progeny (joint second nastiest human beings I’ve ever had the misfortune to meet) being either left out or reduced to tiny fractions. Without them being beneficiaries of any trusts that I am involved with. As it should be. Any half-sibling coming from my mother was ultimately left out by my father inheritance-wise.

And Gary didn’t know that Valene’s twins were his at that strange time when Bobby appeared to die but really didn’t. He worked it out thanks to a picture that Miss Ellie sent him while Bobby was dead, coupled with comments from Val’s mother. And it was another two years before Valene confirmed to Gary that the children were his. The children found out a little while before Danny Waleska passed away unexpectedly in 1990. So I don’t know if Miss Ellie knew they existed. Knots Landing was no longer mentioning Bobby Ewing or current Dallas storylines.
 
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Karin

Moderator
Staff Member
And Gary didn’t know that Valene’s twins were his at that strange time when Bobby appeared to die but really didn’t. He worked it out thanks to a picture that Miss Ellie sent him while Bobby was dead, coupled with comments from Val’s mother. And it was another two years before Valene confirmed to Gary that the children were his. The children found out a little while before Danny Waleska passed away unexpectedly in 1990. So I don’t know if Miss Ellie knew they existed. Knots Landing was no longer mentioning Bobby Ewing or current Dallas storylines.
Well I am sure Gary must have told his mother about his kids at some point. I mean he and Val got remarried in april 1991 so if they hadn't told his family about the kids before then they must have at that point. But yeah it's a shame that we never saw Miss Ellie meet her grandkids. She totally should have crossed over to KL at some point. But it's also possible they would have told Miss Ellie about it after the kids found out, which was in march 1990.
 
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