Would You Take Back The Later Years?

[James from London]

I always felt that their denial came at least in part from a fear of losing their current status. Jock's return would have been another huge upheaval that they just weren't prepared to face.

I like that idea. And the fact that Ray was willing to consider Wes was Jock was indicative of how his relationship with his father differed from his brothers'.

 

[Bobby Southworth]

Sue Ellen also considered, though she wasn't a blood Ewing. It also seemed Miss Ellie was more than open to the idea.

 

[Toni]

Let´s see: dumb basterd Ray, drunk Sue Ellen and a weakened Miss Ellie. Probably, if she had been around, Lucy would have also believed Wes was Jock. What a bunch of "geniuses"!

Besides, I think they should have wrapped up the storyline with Miss Ellie deciding that her life with Clayton was more important, and that she would know if he had been Jock. Imagine such a scene with BBG written the old "way of writing". A long, deep monologue with her talking to Wes and him implying that he actually was lying all the way, but leaving silently. By then Miss Ellie had become Donna Dread´s Miss Ellie but played by BBG.

To me that storyline was another lame one done for shock value and I never believed that he might be Jock. His sense of "honor" was totally gone and there were a lot of clues pointing out that he wasn´t Da Takapa Man, as you have said in the above posts. I wish Gary had done a crossover and they had shown us his reaction too. But, of course, KL belonged to another parallel universe already...

 

[Kenny Coyote]

Let´s see: dumb basterd Ray, drunk Sue Ellen and a weakened Miss Ellie. Probably, if she had been around, Lucy would have also believed Wes was Jock. What a bunch of "geniuses"!

Besides, I think they should have wrapped up the storyline with Miss Ellie deciding that her life with Clayton was more important, and that she would know if he had been Jock. Imagine such a scene with BBG written the old "way of writing". A long, deep monologue with her talking to Wes and him implying that he actually was lying all the way, but leaving silently. By then Miss Ellie had become Donna Dread´s Miss Ellie but played by BBG.

To me that storyline was another lame one done for shock value and I never believed that he might be Jock. His sense of "honor" was totally gone and there were a lot of clues pointing out that he wasn´t Da Takapa Man, as you have said in the above posts. I wish Gary had done a crossover and they had shown us his reaction too. But, of course, KL belonged to another parallel universe already...

Nice post @Toni. Actually Ray didn't believe Wes was Jock either, so I don't know where the idea came from that he thought otherwise. I remember the scene where Miss Ellie asked Ray to deliver a message to Wes that she would meet him and Ray started trying to convince her that he wasn't Jock and to not see him. She said something to Ray long the lines of she was already having to fight with everyone else about this (since they didn't think he was Jock either) and she asked : "Do I have to fight with you too"? So Ray said no, that he'd deliver the message. He was doing it because she asked him - not because he thought Wes was Jock.

Sue Ellen told Wes not to see John Ross at school. She was angry that Wes visited John Ross at school - not how she'd be if Jock had visited John Ross. She pretended to believe he was Jock when she was around the rest of the family but only because, in her abrasive way, she was just trying to make everyone else upset.

If Jock had somehow survived, he wouldn't have taken a job as a ranch hand so he could settle for just being around his own family and getting a (small) paycheck. Jock would've walked right through the front door and said "I'm back."

This was a storyline done at a time when Dallas was changing from what had worked so well for them, into something that tried to make every storyline bigger, more outlandish and more unbelievable than the last. The Marinos storyline and Jack happening to look exactly like Dimitri Marinos was the beginning of that style and they stuck with it. They even stuck with it despite losing viewers rapidly. It seemed they were determined to do anything other than what had worked for them.

 

[Rove]

Let´s see: dumb basterd Ray

Or as JR would prefer to call him, "A half blood."

 

[James from London]

Ray didn't believe Wes was Jock

He wanted to believe, which perhaps is even more interesting (and poignant): "I prayed you were Jock."

 

[Toni]

Nice post @Toni. Actually Ray didn't believe Wes was Jock either, so I don't know where the idea came from that he thought otherwise. I remember the scene where Miss Ellie asked Ray to deliver a message to Wes that she would meet him and Ray started trying to convince her that he wasn't Jock and to not see him. She said something to Ray long the lines of she was already having to fight with everyone else about this (since they didn't think he was Jock either) and she asked : "Do I have to fight with you too"? So Ray said no, that he'd deliver the message. He was doing it because she asked him - not because he thought Wes was Jock.

Sue Ellen told Wes not to see John Ross at school. She was angry that Wes visited John Ross at school - not how she'd be if Jock had visited John Ross. She pretended to believe he was Jock when she was around the rest of the family but only because, in her abrasive way, she was just trying to make everyone else upset.

If Jock had somehow survived, he wouldn't have taken a job as a ranch hand so he could settle for just being around his own family and getting a (small) paycheck. Jock would've walked right through the front door and said "I'm back."

This was a storyline done at a time when Dallas was changing from what had worked so well for them, into something that tried to make every storyline bigger, more outlandish and more unbelievable than the last. The Marinos storyline and Jack happening to look exactly like Dimitri Marinos was the beginning of that style and they stuck with it. They even stuck with it despite losing viewers rapidly. It seemed they were determined to do anything other than what had worked for them.

Thanks for your answer @Kenny Coyote. Actually the first part of my post was another silly joke of mine... But not the Miss Ellie part, because I think the writers just forgot what made her such a memorable character after the Dream Season. I love how you remember so many details about the episodes, I´ve watched the latter seasons a few times but I tend to forget a lot of it... Lol! Keep giving us so many good threads!

 

[Luke_Krebbs_Ewing]

Let's not dispute the facts here regarding Wes Parmalee. Wes had identical bone breakage scars as Jock. He also passed the polygraph test.

There is no way on Earth that two different men would have identical bone breakage scars. I will admit that polygraph tests are not admissable in a court of law.

The man only wanted to be re-united with his family but they didn't believe him. The so called evidence which Bobby had was nothing but hearsay. I don't buy Wes being Wyatt Haines for one minute. How come Punk suddenly remembered this man. It was only when the storyline wasn't going down well with the American viewers that they had to come up with a plausible way to write Wes out. My problem is that it wasn't particularly well done at all.

Steve Forrest would've been a good Jock. He certainly had the gravitas to make the character work. A shame. All of you need to rewatch season ten with a proper open mind to Steve Forrest's performance in the role. Then you'll see that Wes Parmalee really was Jock Ewing.

 

[Taylor Bennett Jr.]

There is no way on Earth that two different men would have identical bone breakage scars.

my (meant to be humorous) reply to this is always that, yes, identical bone breakages are rare, but that pales in comparison to the unfathomably infinitesimal chance that a man (a businessman, no less) would drastically change the way he pronounces the word 'business' after the age of 70!

Jock said something along the lines of 'biness' or 'bidness', where Wes clearly pronounces the first 's' in the word. For god's sake, Steve, couldn't you have at least tried to get that detail straight!?

go to the :32 mark - unimpeachable proof it's not Jock!

 

[Luke_Krebbs_Ewing]

my (meant to be humorous) reply to this is always that, yes, identical bone breakages are rare, but that pales in comparison to the unfathomably infinitesimal chance that a man (a businessman, no less) would drastically change the way he pronounces the word 'business' after the age of 70!

Jock said something along the lines of 'biness' or 'bidness', where Wes clearly pronounces the first 's' in the word. For god's sake, Steve, couldn't you have at least tried to get that detail straight!?

go to the :32 mark - unimpeachable proof it's not Jock!

You're clutching at straws! :fp:

His vocal chords were damaged during the crash & the resulting fire. He had several years of recuperation from the plastic surgery & learning to walk & talk again.

You really need to go back & rewatch Dallas season ten again or my name isn't Luke Krebbs Ewing. He's my GrandFather & I love him!!

 

[Kenny Coyote]

my (meant to be humorous) reply to this is always that, yes, identical bone breakages are rare, but that pales in comparison to the unfathomably infinitesimal chance that a man (a businessman, no less) would drastically change the way he pronounces the word 'business' after the age of 70!

Jock said something along the lines of 'biness' or 'bidness', where Wes clearly pronounces the first 's' in the word. For god's sake, Steve, couldn't you have at least tried to get that detail straight!?

go to the :32 mark - unimpeachable proof it's not Jock!

Yes, Jock said "bidness", which I've heard other Texans say as well. Jock's voice was different and Wes called it was because his vocal chords were damaged. His voice didn't sound damaged to me; it just sounded nothing alike. Even if you grant them that OK, maybe the sound of the voice was because of damage, the thing I find very revealing is how different Wes's manner of speaking was from Jock's. Not just the pronunciation of the words, but the cadence of his speech, the inflections of his speech, where he put emphasis on words - his whole style of communicating was nothing like Parmalee's style!

If I had to describe it, Jock's way of speaking was gruff, and very direct, whereas Parmalee's style of speaking was smooth, not gruff, and much less direct. I said in another thread that Jock, had he come back from the accident years later wouldn't have gotten a ranch hand's job on his own ranch - Jock would have walked right through the the damn front door and announced: "I'm back"!

As for the bones, how is it that Jock's build was long and rangy with long arms and long legs and Wes had a much more compact build? I don't find the bone breakages nearly as big of a convincing factor as I find the idea that Jock's whole skeleton had supposedly shrunk to be a factor that shows Parmalee was a con man.

 

[Luke_Krebbs_Ewing]

Yes, Jock said "bidness", which I've heard other Texans say as well. Jock's voice was different and Wes called it was because his vocal chords were damaged. His voice didn't sound damaged to me; it just sounded nothing alike. Even if you grant them that OK, maybe the sound of the voice was because of damage, the thing I find very revealing is how different Wes's manner of speaking was from Jock's. Not just the pronunciation of the words, but the cadence of his speech, the inflections of his speech, where he put emphasis on words - his whole style of communicating was nothing like Parmalee's style!

If I had to describe it, Jock's way of speaking was gruff, and very direct, whereas Parmalee's style of speaking was smooth, not gruff, and much less direct. I said in another thread that Jock, had he come back from the accident years later wouldn't have gotten a ranch hand's job on his own ranch - Jock would have walked right through the the damn front door and announced: "I'm back"!

As for the bones, how is it that Jock's build was long and rangy with long arms and long legs and Wes had a much more compact build? I don't find the bone breakages nearly as big of a convincing factor as I find the idea that Jock's whole skeleton had supposedly shrunk to be a factor that shows Parmalee was a con man.

You're clutching at bones, instead of straws!!

Of course he has a different skeletal structure, lets be realistic here. Steve Forrest was only one inch taller than Jim Davis. We're talking about two different actors - Jim Davis & Steve Forrest & obviously they didn't have the same body! They both had different mannerisms & ways of talking individual to themselves, that argument is just ludicrous Kenny.

 

[Toni]

What about the heart surgery? Nobody seems to notice this. If he went through the operation in Dallas (and he did), then somebody could have checked it out. Also, the fact that his heart didn´t stop (and he had a heart condition) when the helicopter clashed into the lake!! Come on, this had more holes than a Gruyère cheese...

​

 

[Seaviewer]

But they did acknowledge the change. With Gary his change in appearance was never mentioned so it's not part of the story. Here the story is about could this be Jock? Well, how do human beings recognize each other - you apply the same criteria. It was a silly story.

You make a good point but I still think you're reading too much into the differences between the actors.

I wish Gary had done a crossover and they had shown us his reaction too. But, of course, KL belonged to another parallel universe already...

It always intrigued me that both Ben Stivers and - when the scene was remade- Wes Parmalee, once they got into the house, made a beeline for Gary's picture.

 

[Taylor Bennett Jr.]

after all this excellent discussion of bones and hearts and such, I stand firm with the 'business' vs. 'biness' standard to determine official Jockness! Wes Parmalee was the dastardly Wyatt Haines (who rumor has it was nicknamed 'The Enunciator' by his community college classmates for his clear, comprehensive diction).

I think the fact that we’re playfully arguing about this decades later is evidence that it was a standout storyline, if nothing else.

 

[Kenny Coyote]

You make a good point but I still think you're reading too much into the differences between the actors.

The differences between the actors matter in this particular storyline because they are supposed to both be the same man, according to Parmalee. He was saying he was Jock, but he didn't look like he could be Jock. That's a problem. I thought the storyline was a bad idea, but if they'd found an actor who really looked like he could be Jock, maybe it could have been more believable than it was.

 

[Luke_Krebbs_Ewing]

The differences between the actors matter in this particular storyline because they are supposed to both be the same man, according to Parmalee. He was saying he was Jock, but he didn't look like he could be Jock. That's a problem. I thought the storyline was a bad idea, but if they'd found an actor who really looked like he could be Jock, maybe it could have been more believable than it was.

Now you're clutching at hot air!! How come the difference in actors matters in this particular storyline! There were two different actors who played Gary Ewing. David Ackroyd & Ted Shackleford, same character different actors. No explanation was offered for the switch over & they didn't look anything alike, even hair colour. There were three actors who played Jenna Wade too & no explanation was offered either!

I certainly thought Steve Forrest looked like a believeable Jock. He was roughly the same height, similar build with similar hair & was a good actor who had years of experience behind him. Just a shame the backlash from the fans made them abandon this storyline & not follow through on it.

 

[Kenny Coyote]

Now you're clutching at hot air!! How come the difference in actors matters in this particular storyline! There were two different actors who played Gary Ewing. David Ackroyd & Ted Shackleford, same character different actors. No explanation was offered for the switch over & they didn't look anything alike, even hair colour. There were three actors who played Jenna Wade too & no explanation was offered either!

I certainly thought Steve Forrest looked like a believeable Jock. He was roughly the same height, similar build with similar hair & was a good actor who had years of experience behind him. Just a shame the backlash from the fans made them abandon this storyline & not follow through on it.

OK, the two different Garys, for example, are a recast. The show is asking you to accept the new actor as the one now playing the role the previous actor played. Donna Reed as Miss Ellie is another - nobody in the show said to Ellie that looked different because it's not a storyline - just a new actress playing Ellie. The Donna Reed Ellie doesn't make excuses for why she looks different - you're just supposed to accept it.

With Parmalee, it's not a recast and you're not supposed to just accept him as "the new Jock" ; you're supposed to question whether or not he could be Jock. That's why the other characters in the show make remarks on his appearance - and why Parmalee makes excuses for why he looks different. The whole storyline is based on the idea that this might or might not be Jock. How do you tell if he really is? Well, you do it the same way you distinguish one person from the next. People use appearance, voice and mannerisms to recognize people.

Sometimes you don't even need the appearance; you hear your friend's voice on the phone and right away you know who it is.

In Parmalee's case he lacked all three:

1. Appearance - Parmalee didn't look like Jock

2. Voice - Parmalee didn't sound like Jock

3. Mannerisms - The way Parmalee used his voice when he spoke (inflections, accent, cadence), the way he walked, the way he carried himself, all tell you he is not Jock.

 

[Taylor Bennett Jr.]

OK, the two different Garys, for example, are a recast. The show is asking you to accept the new actor as the one now playing the role the previous actor played. Donna Reed as Miss Ellie is another - nobody in the show said to Ellie that looked different because it's not a storyline - just a new actress playing Ellie. The Donna Reed Ellie doesn't make excuses for why she looks different - you're just supposed to accept it.

With Parmalee, it's not a recast and you're not supposed to just accept him as "the new Jock" ; you're supposed to question whether or not he could be Jock. That's why the other characters in the show make remarks on his appearance - and why Parmalee makes excuses for why he looks different. The whole storyline is based on the idea that this might or might not be Jock. How do you tell if he really is? Well, you do it the same way you distinguish one person from the next. People use appearance, voice and mannerisms to recognize people.

Sometimes you don't even need the appearance; you hear your friend's voice on the phone and right away you know who it is.

In Parmalee's case he lacked all three:

1. Appearance - Parmalee didn't look like Jock

2. Voice - Parmalee didn't sound like Jock

3. Mannerisms - The way Parmalee used his voice when he spoke (inflections, accent, cadence), the way he walked, the way he carried himself, all tell you he is not Jock.

I agree with this - I'm kind of humorously playing up the 'business' pronunciation, but I feel it wouldn't have been too much to ask for a veteran actor like Steve Forrest to be closer to the ballpark with some of those details.

 

[Rove]

Just a shame the backlash from the fans made them abandon this storyline & not follow through on it.

I was one of those fans. I despised the story but only because of my fondness for Jim Davis. I'm curious Via. If the writers/producers had persisted with the notion Parmalee was Jock where do you think the story would have ended up? If they had decided Jock was alive then the contest for Ewing Oil between JR and Bobby would have been null and void. A great shame because this story drove the series for a long period.

Also. Where would this leave Miss Ellie and Clayton?