"You call this plain clothes…?" (Re)watching Cagney & Lacey

[Grant Jennings]

I still get confused by all the Cagneys. I liked Meg Foster the best, but the show might not have lasted with her in the role.

The CBS execs didn't like Foster, they feared viewers might think Cagney and Lacey could be lesbians.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

The CBS execs didn't like Foster, they feared viewers might think Cagney and Lacey could be lesbians.

The phrasing was "looks like a couple of dykes" (un-PC even in 1982) and producers were told to replace her "with somebody more like Angie Dickinson." The irony being that Meg's episodes were perfectly high-rated, and she was more feminine than Tyne, Sharon or Loretta. But that ice-blue eye color from Meg screams "lesbian!" (something singer Anne Murray has lived with for decades) to some people.

Gless irritated me a bit, but overall she did a decent job.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

I still get confused by all the Cagneys.

Since all three had quite different energies I tend to compartmentalise each version and think of them as operating in alternative universes.

I liked Meg Foster the best, but the show might not have lasted with her in the role.

Last time I watched I really appreciated Meg in the role. She can look quite hard and plays to that edge really well, but there's also a soft underbelly that made her fascinating to watch. I'd really like to have seen more of her.

My main gripe with the show during that era was the fact that the series hadn't found its identity and there was that theme tune and the godawful Nelson Riddle score which made it sound like Batman. But Meg seemed to bear the brunt of any negative perception of the series at that time, which is just wrong.

If pressed I'd say Gless is my Cagney of choice, because that screen chemistry with Tyne Daly is just magic. But of course my perception of her will also be influenced by her longevity and the fact that Gless's Cagney was far better serviced. I know she was Barney Rosenzweig's first choice, which I imagine might have affected how the character was developed. And I suspect he'd have fought much harder had the network's concerns been with Sharon rather than Meg.

I rewatched The Trials Of Rosie O'Neill recently and really enjoyed seeing Meg sharing a number of scenes with Sharon Gless.

The irony being that Meg's episodes were perfectly high-rated, and she was more feminine than Tyne, Sharon or Loretta.

Regarding the "dyke" thing, even Sharon Gless said many years later that if the network felt Meg was too butch, all that was needed was put a blonde wig on her to differentiate the two. It's a slight oversimplification, but again hints at how Meg wasn't given a proper chance to be the Cagney they wanted.

Gless irritated me a bit

Now I'm curious to know why. Her performance seems more or less universally loved, so I'd find it refreshing to hear a different opinion.

 

[Seaviewer]

Last time I watched I really appreciated Meg in the role. She can look quite hard and plays to that edge really well, but there's also a soft underbelly that made her fascinating to watch. I'd really like to have seen more of her.

It had been years since I'd seen those episodes when I rewatched and I hadn't expected to like her so I was quite surprised when I did and was sorry to see the last of her.

 

[Fin Jordan]

AHEAD OF THE GAME
DUPNIK: ... “Arty! Arty, where's my pumpernickel and spinach?”

I'm enjoying your posts as I work through my series rewatch. I noticed this in your transcription and I found it interesting and I'm wondering if it was a change in dialogue for overseas airing? What he actually said in the original is "where's my bagel and schmear" which I could see might not make sense for anyone outside the US (maybe not even for anyone in the US too far away from the eastern seaboard!). "Bagel and schmear" is very eastern US slang for bagel and cream cheese, the "schmear" being a slathering of cream smeared on a water bagel... bagels also of which were first introduced in the US in NYC and of which NYC is known for. Many native New Yorkers and travelers alike swear that the bagels are best there of anywhere in the world because of New York city water which is very soft and because they boil the bagels a little longer, which gives them a bit thicker outer crust and a chewy texture that New Yorkers love. I think I recall an episode previous to this one where Cagney even mentions "it's the water," when she's talking about her bagel. So anyway, in our version he was asking for his bagel and cream cheese, likely his breakfast.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

I'm enjoying your posts as I work through my series rewatch.

That's great. Thank you.

I noticed this in your transcription and I found it interesting and I'm wondering if it was a change in dialogue for overseas airing? What he actually said in the original is "where's my bagel and schmear"

Gosh. That's a great spot.

It's a long time since I watched the episode, but from distant memory I'd say Dupnik would have been in shot for some of these lines so there would have to have been two versions shot, rather than simpler (and cheaper) ADR. If there was different dialogue shot for overseas, that really shows the attention to detail and foresight of the team behind this series.

"Bagel and schmear" is very eastern US slang for bagel and cream cheese, the "schmear" being a slathering of cream smeared on a water bagel...

It makes perfect sense now you mention it. I hadn't heard the "schmear" part before, so perhaps it shows they were right to do that. Mind you, even "pumpernickel and spinach" would have sounded exotic and unusual to most Brits in the Eighties.

Many native New Yorkers and travelers alike swear that the bagels are best there of anywhere in the world because of New York city water which is very soft and because they boil the bagels a little longer, which gives them a bit thicker outer crust and a chewy texture that New Yorkers love.

This thread is making me peckish. Luckily I do have some bagels and cream cheese in the kitchen (albeit supermarket bagels, rather than nice chewy ones made with New York water).

I think I recall an episode previous to this one where Cagney even mentions "it's the water," when she's talking about her bagel.

Another nice spot. I love this level of authenticity.

 

[Seaviewer]

Why spinach, though? Why not just say "bagel and cream cheese"?

 

[Fin Jordan]

Why spinach, though? Why not just say "bagel and cream cheese"?

Not spinach, but "schmear." The phrase has a Yiddish background, but you can say it anywhere along the eastern US and people will know exactly what you want. It's often even on the menus that way. I'm in the midwest and while someone here might say "what?" at first when you use that phrase, when you repeat it they're likely to know what you want. It reminds me of "bangers & mash" type phrasing, and why you don't just say sausage and mashed potatoes.

 

[Fin Jordan]

It's a long time since I watched the episode, but from distant memory I'd say Dupnik would have been in shot for some of these lines so there would have to have been two versions shot, rather than simpler (and cheaper) ADR. If there was different dialogue shot for overseas, that really shows the attention to detail and foresight of the team behind this series.

I believe, if I remember correctly, we don't see Dupnik's face when he says that, we're facing Mary Beth, who is facing him, and we're off to the side a bit of Dupnik. So I suppose it could have just been dubbed over.

 

[Seaviewer]

Not spinach, but "schmear."

No, I was wondering why it would be changed to "spinach" in the presumed redubbing instead of the easily understood and more accurate "cream cheese". A rhetorical question, I guess.

 

[Fin Jordan]

No, I was wondering why it would be changed to "spinach" in the presumed redubbing instead of the easily understood and more accurate "cream cheese". A rhetorical question, I guess.

Oh, I gotcha. They didn't leave the bagel either, so who knows. Spinach goes better with pumpernickel?

 

[Mel O'Drama]

I acquired my copy of Sharon's memoir this week. Looking forward to dipping into it over the summer.

It's a signed bookplate edition, so I've also now got a second SG autograph. ​

 

[Fin Jordan]

Greetings Mel O'Drama,
I recalled when I was reading your synopses as I was rewatching the series awhile back that you had commented about the music in some of the episodes. I wondered if you might happen to be able to identify what the piano music is that's being played when C & L arrive at the home of the bank president (who later turns out to be an FBI agent) in Fair Shake 1?

 

[bmasters9]

No, this theme didn't win, however, I consider Cagney & Lacey the "Knots Landing" of the cop-shows.

I think Hill Street Blues on NBC would be also in that category.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Greetings Mel O'Drama,

Hi @Fin Jordan

I recalled when I was reading your synopses as I was rewatching the series awhile back that you had commented about the music in some of the episodes. I wondered if you might happen to be able to identify what the piano music is that's being played when C & L arrive at the home of the bank president (who later turns out to be an FBI agent) in Fair Shake 1?

I've just dug out the old DVDs and had a look at that scene. Unfortunately it wasn't a piece I recognised, and because it was behind a closed door with gales blowing and dialogue on our side of it I didn't think Shazam would be any help (though to be fair I didn't try).

Sorry not to be able to help. I do like a good mystery, so if you do find out any more about it, I'd love to know.

 

[Fin Jordan]

Hi @Fin Jordan





I've just dug out the old DVDs and had a look at that scene. Unfortunately it wasn't a piece I recognised, and because it was behind a closed door with gales blowing and dialogue on our side of it I didn't think Shazam would be any help (though to be fair I didn't try).

Sorry not to be able to help. I do like a good mystery, so if you do find out any more about it, I'd love to know.

Shazam didn't help. I tried it before I asked you! ha ha thanks anyway!!

 

[ChrisSumner]

I bought the complete series on Amazon because it was cheap and I wanted something to watch. I read the first page of this thread and that was enough to sell me. I figured if I didn’t like the show, it’s only $30, but thankfully I’m enjoying it.

I’ve seen the pilot and first two episodes. Keep in mind I’ve never seen as much as a clip of this series, but I expected your typical 80s procedural. So far I like that the characters are more fleshed out and take precedence over the story of the week. I find myself instantly invested in these characters, which sometimes can take time.

On the Cagney front, I don’t normally like Loretta Swit, but I found her so charming and full of energy in the pilot. I feel like I kept enjoying her more and more as it went on and I was sad knowing that was it. Meg Foster is an actor I already am a fan of so I knew I would like her. With that said, she doesn’t fully work for me as Cagney. It feels very much like a different character, but I feel that was intentional casting a younger brunette in the role. She seems more tough and hard edged and that fun vibe is gone. I’m choosing to view this Cagney as a different character and with that in mind, it works. It’s a shame Meg took the blame when the show clearly wanted to go in a different direction. Just better styling and a different hairstyle would’ve saved them from the “dyke” claims.

I’m going to finish enjoying season one and then go on to Sharon Gless. I do like Sharon Gless. She reminds me of a more lighthearted Susan Flannery. As long as the writing holds up, I should be in for the long haul.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

I bought the complete series on Amazon because it was cheap and I wanted something to watch. I read the first page of this thread and that was enough to sell me. I figured if I didn’t like the show, it’s only $30, but thankfully I’m enjoying it.

I’ve seen the pilot and first two episodes. Keep in mind I’ve never seen as much as a clip of this series,

I'm so glad you're enjoying it, Chris and I envy you watching the series for the very first time. You have a wonderful journey ahead of you.

Meg Foster is an actor I already am a fan of so I knew I would like her. With that said, she doesn’t fully work for me as Cagney. It feels very much like a different character, but I feel that was intentional casting a younger brunette in the role. She seems more tough and hard edged and that fun vibe is gone. I’m choosing to view this Cagney as a different character and with that in mind, it works. It’s a shame Meg took the blame when the show clearly wanted to go in a different direction. Just better styling and a different hairstyle would’ve saved them from the “dyke” claims.

This all pretty much reflects my feelings on it as well. Meg's a good enough actress, so a few tweaks could have overcome any of the internal fears if the powers that be hadn't made up their minds.

I’m going to finish enjoying season one and then go on to Sharon Gless. I do like Sharon Gless. She reminds me of a more lighthearted Susan Flannery.

I'm already looking forward to your thoughts on Sharon's first episodes.

 

[ChrisSumner]

I finished season one and have watched the first two episodes of season two. I love Sharon Gless as Cagney. Like with Loretta Swit, there is a big contrast in not only their look, but personality and it feels more dynamic. Still, I think Meg Foster was great and did exactly what was expected to her on a "different" show. I feel like the pilot movie and the first season reminded me more of when a show has to go through multiple pilots before making it to air. If the only thing that changed was who played Cagney, that would be one thing, but season two has a completely different look and style. It's as if they got a new costume designer, the police set has been updated and the intro is completely different. It's a shame Meg got blamed for a show that was simply going through growing pains. Still, I do think they've finally gotten it right.

Sharon Gless' Cagney feels like a New Yorker who grew up with money. She has a hard edge, but soft feminine style. I love that they allow her to wear heels and dresses and still take her seriously. Her chemistry with Tyne Daly is instantly there, but the relationship I'm really falling in love with is Lacey and Harvey. I've never seen John Karlen outside of Dark Shadows, but it's nice to see he found success after that show. They sparkle together and I love when we get to visit their household. I'm used to it being the wife at home, so it's interesting to see this, especially on an 80s show.

Before I continue my binge, I wondered what yall think of the tv movies? I read an interview with Gless that said they were successful and would've continued, but Les Moonves wasn't a fan of the show. Did they have the same quality as the tv show?

 

[Mel O'Drama]

I love Sharon Gless as Cagney.

I love that they allow her to wear heels and dresses and still take her seriously. Her chemistry with Tyne Daly is instantly there,

Oh great. I'm glad you're already enjoying her.

There is certainly something about Season Two where everything came together and suddenly worked. As you pointed out, there's a lot more to it than just Cagney's casting, but Gless's presence certainly doesn't hurt at all.

Still, I think Meg Foster was great and did exactly what was expected to her on a "different" show. I feel like the pilot movie and the first season reminded me more of when a show has to go through multiple pilots before making it to air. If the only thing that changed was who played Cagney, that would be one thing, but season two has a completely different look and style. It's as if they got a new costume designer, the police set has been updated and the intro is completely different. It's a shame Meg got blamed for a show that was simply going through growing pains.

It's really nice to see some appreciation for Meg's Cagney, and I agree. Far too much of the blame for what wasn't working seemed to fall at Meg's feet and you've summed up why it really shouldn't have.

the relationship I'm really falling in love with is Lacey and Harvey. I've never seen John Karlen outside of Dark Shadows, but it's nice to see he found success after that show. They sparkle together and I love when we get to visit their household. I'm used to it being the wife at home, so it's interesting to see this, especially on an 80s show.

Agreed. John Karlen and Tyne Daly are just wonderful together. You have many, many terrific scenes between them ahead of you.

I wondered what yall think of the tv movies? I read an interview with Gless that said they were successful and would've continued, but Les Moonves wasn't a fan of the show. Did they have the same quality as the tv show?

Perhaps this is telling, but at this point (five and a half years on from watching the reunion films) I honestly couldn't remember.

Having looked back on my comments as I watched them I grew to love them but found the shift in tone a bit of a struggle - particularly with the first film. I also found the final film a little unsatisfying for several reasons. I felt the middle two films were the strongest, and with all of them when they were good they were really good. There's nothing like the kind of disappointment that's frequently associated with TV series reunions.

Jumping on the back of the comments you made about the pre-Season Two episodes being similar to a series that undergoes several pilots before they perfect it, it's probably best to treat the films in a similar way. They are a different animal from the series, and I view them as a series of pilots for a potential new series (which I suppose they were intended to be).

They're by no means the pinnacle of the entire run, but they are definitely worth watching after the series for the full C&L experience.