It Has To Be Said, Pam Was Nothing More Than A Pretty Opportunist.

[Snarky Oracle!]

You are right, you should be able to express your likes and dislikes like anyone else.
Unfortunately, some people think certain actors and/or characters are beyond any criticism,

And yet we enjoy JR and Jock anyway.

I remember when Darrin Stephens was recast.
Personally, I thought both actors were good.

Another bad primetime recast. And they didn't even take the opportunity to use witchcraft to explain any of it!

Was it BBG's fault? No
but it wasn't Donna Reed's fault either

Few people here blame Donna Reed.

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

And yet we enjoy JR and Jock anyway.



Another bad primetime recast. And they didn't even take the opportunity to use witchcraft to explain any of it!



Few people here blame Donna Reed.

Actually, didn't you say it was the beginning of the decline?
The remarks about Donna Reed on tis forum are a disgrace.
And BTW, in real life, Howard Keel would have found Donna Reed more attractive than BBG,
at that point in time.

And what about women who praised Alexis Colby?
Fine, that is good for the show, but none of this has to do with what you seem to be suggesting

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

Actually, didn't you say it was the beginning of the decline?
The remarks about Donna Reed on tis forum are a disgrace.

The 84/85 season was, by some accounts, the beginning of the decline. And the recasting of Miss Ellie was symptomatic of that, yes.

What remarks about Donna Reed "are a disgrace"?? Give specifics.

I'm sure her performance has been criticized, but mostly she's cited as one of the victims -- repeatedly.

And what about women who praised Alexis Colby?
Fine, that is good for the show, but none of this has to do with what you seem to be suggesting

I'm not even sure what you're suggesting!

 

[CeeCee72]

And BTW, in real life, Howard Keel would have found Donna Reed more attractive than BBG,
at that point in time.

Why is that, exactly?

As it has been said over and over, it wasn't just the recast of Ellie that was the problem - it was that played by Reed, Ellie was a totally different character. It was a shock. The truth is, it was impossible for most fans to reconcile the Ellie of Reed to the Ellie we had known for so long. It's not hostility towards Reed, but yes, it is hostility to how Reed chose to play the character. That woman simply wasn't "our" Ellie.

As to the "criticism" characters get on this forum, it's a discussion. We are endlessly fascinated by these characters and continue to pick apart their psyches and their motivations thirty years after the show went off the air. That alone is a testament to the love we all have for both the series and the characters.

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

Why is that, exactly?

As it has been said over and over, it wasn't just the recast of Ellie that was the problem - it was that played by Reed, Ellie was a totally different character. It was a shock. The truth is, it was impossible for most fans to reconcile the Ellie of Reed to the Ellie we had known for so long. It's not hostility towards Reed, but yes, it is hostility to how Reed chose to play the character. That woman simply wasn't "our" Ellie.

As to the "criticism" characters get on this forum, it's a discussion. We are endlessly fascinated by these characters and continue to pick apart their psyches and their motivations thirty years after the show went off the air. That alone is a testament to the love we all have for both the series and the characters.

Well, for starters, Donna Reed didn't wear sack dresses.

I realize that it is pointless to refer to facts, but Donna Reed did play the wife/widow of a wealthy rancher in Backlash (1954)
Donna Reed also based her interpretation on her interactions with the real life wives of Oil Barons
It can be asserted that Donna Reed actually had more background knowledge of an Oil Baron's wife than BBG
Sorry if that conflicts with the preconceptions of others
If Donna Reed had portrayed Miss Ellie more like BBG, she would have been vilified for being a copy cat.
Donna Reed couldn't win no matter what she did, and people persist in this irrational antipathy toward her.

I have no issue with criticism, I welcome it.
My objection is when people are so ingrained in one perspective that they refuse to even consider that another perspective may possibly have some merit
And Dallas has producers and directors. Donna Reed didn't
play the role with 100% independence, as some people seem to think.

BBG wasn't returning. Yes I know the producers would not meet her demands
I don't blame the producers.
Asking for more $ and less work is not a winning strategy
when your character is not a "core" character In the Producers minds
Maybe the character should have been sidelined
Maybe the recast was not a good idea, but let's be real,
ANY actress would have received a less than welcome reception, if this forum is an indicator.

When BBG returned, ratings declined sharply in season 9.
Where were all those "fans" who were so appalled by the recast? They not only didn't return,
more people stopped watching.
But, again, facts

Not BBG's fault but not Donna Reed's fault either.

 

[CeeCee72]

If Miss Ellie had simply been an oil Baron's wife, that would have been one thing, but Miss Ellie was a rancher's daughter long before she was an oil Baron's wife.

Regardless of who is at fault and why, it wasn't the same character. As for fans not returning when BBG came back and even more stopping watching, there were LOTS of problems with that season. Dallas had started its slide. The Ellie recasting wasn't even near the only problem, just the most glaring.

 

[Willie Oleson]

I realize that it is pointless to refer to facts, but Donna Reed did play the wife/widow of a wealthy rancher in Backlash (1954)

Is that relevant to how the characters of DALLAS are written?

 

[Crimson]

I realize that it is pointless to refer to facts, but Donna Reed did play the wife/widow of a wealthy rancher in Backlash (1954)

If JR had been recast with Michael Landon, who decided to play JR as a faithful husband and honest businessman, would you have been OK with the change? Because that's how jarringly different DR was from BBG.

 

[LMLDallas78]

@xab
Which nerve exactly were you trying to touch?

If it was to reinforce that Pam is actually a fictional character, then yeah you got me. I'm still trying to recover from the news.

You obviously haven't grasped which nerve of yours I was trying to touch.

The worst part of today (which has been totally ruined for me) is you posting that awful video of awful Alexis and awful Krystal from that awful soap, just for me to hear the punchline. You could have just written "Have I touched a nerve" which really doesn't make sense in reply to my post by the way.

Apologies to those I may have offended by saying that awful video.

 

[Richard Channing]

And BTW, in real life, Howard Keel would have found Donna Reed more attractive than BBG,
at that point in time.

What a ridiculous statement. How could you possibly know what Howard Keel found attractive?
And what's that got to do with anything anyway??

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

What a ridiculous statement. How could you possibly know what Howard Keel found attractive?
And what's that got to do with anything anyway??

Not ridiculous at all.

How do you know different.
Speculating is part of the fun.

This is an open forum.
I can discuss anything within the rules.
If you disagree, fine, but come up with a better observation

There is a sense called vision. You may be familiar with it.
For starters, DR did not wear potato sacks for dresses.
quite obvious, but if it makes you happy,
I withdraw it. There, all better.

What do many criticisms of Donna Reed on a non-acting level have to do with anything?
People seem to have an issue with the thought that 'how dare she decide to play this role, according to her own interpretation,
and not as a copy'

If JR had been recast with Michael Landon, who decided to play JR as a faithful husband and honest businessman, would you have been OK with the change? Because that's how jarringly different DR was from BBG.

With respect, You are way overstating the difference.
I get that there was a difference, but you are comparing a mountain to a molehill

Is that relevant to how the characters of DALLAS are written?

Yes, because DR is criticized for her portrayal with the (false) observation that she lacked insight into the character
of a wealthy Texas oil baron's wife
DR applied a real world version of her knowledge of Oil Baron's wives to the character,
and she actually did play a wealthy ranchers' wife/widow.

People can certainly say that they did not care for her interpretation,
and that it did not work in their opinions,
but it was not a baseless approach

With regard to writing, it didn't seem that much different on the surface.
Maybe it lacked a more layered approach
Maybe it didn't translate at the director level.

The bottom line is that it was a one season cast, and the show had bigger issues
that led to its decline

 

[Crimson]

I get that there was a difference, but you are comparing a mountain to a molehill

Changing the concept of a character is not a small difference. You've said several times that DR based her characterization on "real life wives of Oil Barons". That is not how BBG played the character for seven years.

I'm also not sure why you seem to think it's unkind to criticize Reed's conceptualization of character and performance, but not unkind for you to imply BBG was not as attractive.

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

Changing the concept of a character is not a small difference. You've said several times that DR based her characterization on "real life wives of Oil Barons". That is not how BBG played the character for seven years.

I'm also not sure why you seem to think it's unkind to criticize Reed's conceptualization of character and performance, but not unkind for you to imply BBG was not as attractive.

Changing the concept of the character - it was looking at the character from a different perspective.
It is not right or wrong, just different
Your Michael Landon JR is so far off the spectrum. It is not consistent with the show and JR's character
Dallas then becomes a completely different show with a completely different narrative
Agree or not with DR's interpretation, it didn't change the basic Dallas narrative
There really was no great difference in the surface writing for BBG and DR
Context was different, and different perspectives were emphasized, but it is nowhere near the JR/ML that you assert
And Donna Reed did in fact play a rancher's wife/widow in Backlash (1954)

Yes it is unkind to criticize DR with the persistence of some on this forum,
because it is partly based on "how dare she play Miss Ellie in a way that is not a copycat'
I am not going to comment further on who is or isn't attractive. To each their own

I wish you well. We just disagree

 

[Willie Oleson]

Yes, because DR is criticized for her portrayal with the (false) observation that she lacked insight into the character
of a wealthy Texas oil baron's wife

I don't think anyone here is saying that she doesn't know how to play a wealthy Texan oil baron's wife. It just wasn't the wealthy Texan oil baron's wife created specifically for this series, the one that people loved to watch when they watched DALLAS.
Although I'm not sure if the recast had been received much more positively if Donna had played Miss Ellie like Barbara did.

A recast is almost never a good development (there are some exceptions) but I can honestly say that there aren't many that seriously bothered me.
Off the top of my head: the Riddler in BATMAN 66 (not that the recast sucked or anything, but the original was soooo good), Willie Loomis from DARK SHADOWS (but since the character also got a character make-over in the story itself I'll never know how the first actor would have fared) and then there was temporary recast of Constance MacKenzie in PEYTON PLACE (and I almost feel guilty for mentioning it because Lola Albright seemed like such a lovely lady, but I really really wanted Allison's mother to be played by Dorothy Malone).

and she actually did play a wealthy ranchers' wife/widow.

Barbara Bel Geddes had also played a tycoon's wife, but even though an actor can benefit from acting experience I think every acting job is a unique challenge, even if the circumstances are similar, story-wise.
Barbara did have the experience of actually playing Miss Ellie f or seven years and yet somehow you seem to dismiss this?

The bottom line is that it was a one season cast, and the show had bigger issues
that led to its decline

Right, only one season. And how terribly frustrating that it didn't happen in the dream season.
Maybe we should consider ourselves lucky that the recast didn't happen sooner. DALLAS season 1 to 7 is the finest part of the series, I think.

Can we go back to Pam's A Tramp now?

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

I don't think anyone here is saying that she doesn't know how to play a wealthy Texan oil baron's wife. It just wasn't the wealthy Texan oil baron's wife created specifically for this series, the one that people loved to watch when they watched DALLAS.
Although I'm not sure if the recast had been received much more positively if Donna had played Miss Ellie like Barbara did.

A recast is almost never a good development (there are some exceptions) but I can honestly say that there aren't many that seriously bothered me.
Off the top of my head: the Riddler in BATMAN 66 (not that the recast sucked or anything, but the original was soooo good), Willie Loomis from DARK SHADOWS (but since the character also got a character make-over in the story itself I'll never know how the first actor would have fared) and then there was temporary recast of Constance MacKenzie in PEYTON PLACE (and I almost feel guilty for mentioning it because Lola Albright seemed like such a lovely lady, but I really really wanted Allison's mother to be played by Dorothy Malone).

Barbara Bel Geddes had also played a tycoon's wife, but even though an actor can benefit from acting experience I think every acting job is a unique challenge, even if the circumstances are similar, story-wise.
Barbara did have the experience of actually playing Miss Ellie f or seven years and yet somehow you seem to dismiss this?

Right, only one season. And how terribly frustrating that it didn't happen in the dream season.
Maybe we should consider ourselves lucky that the recast didn't happen sooner. DALLAS season 1 to 7 is the finest part of the series, I think.

Can we go back to Pam's A Tramp now?

Thank You for well stated and wellthought response.
Others have grossly misrepresented what I actually said

The 84/85 season was, by some accounts, the beginning of the decline. And the recasting of Miss Ellie was symptomatic of that, yes.

What remarks about Donna Reed "are a disgrace"?? Give specifics.

I'm sure her performance has been criticized, but mostly she's cited as one of the victims -- repeatedly.



I'm not even sure what you're suggesting!

You disappoint me

In general , I support you and respect you,
This despite your postings in another thread, postings that I find...don't have the right word.
With regard to it , I disagree completely.

Yet you seem to be misstating and misrepresenting my postings, and even
asserting things that I did not say.

Furthermore you are supporting the postings of others who are misstating and misrepresenting what I say.

I thought that, maybe, you would be a bit more receptive to my observations,
or at least consider that there may be merit to them.
even if you disagree.

It is stunning to me, that this forum seems to have an unwritten rule about
viewing Miss Ellie as less than perfect, with hero worship being a necessity.
I still think Miss Ellie had many, many flaws, and I will not be silent about mentioning them



Nevertheless, I will continue to support you (except for previous mentioned thread) and respect you

 

[CeeCee72]

@Jock Ewing Fan I have to say that although some characters have a more passionate following here on the forum than others, I also have to say that I have never felt attacked for being critical of any of them - including Miss Ellie.

I have pointed out what a horrible and manipulative mother and mother-in-law she is over and over. Others have disagreed, but no one has ever made me feel bad for having that opinion.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

What a ridiculous statement. How could you possibly know what Howard Keel found attractive?
And what's that got to do with anything anyway??

Keel publicly said that when Reed emerged from make-up in her bouffant hairstyle, he "knew we were in trouble."

That's all I think we know about what Keel thought about Reed's appearance.

You disappoint me

Does that mean you won't cast me as Miss Ellie?

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

@Jock Ewing Fan I have to say that although some characters have a more passionate following here on the forum than others, I also have to say that I have never felt attacked for being critical of any of them - including Miss Ellie.

I have pointed out what a horrible and manipulative mother and mother-in-law she is over and over. Others have disagreed, but no one has ever made me feel bad for having that opinion.

Well I am glad that you have been respected.
Unfortunately, My experience has been different,
specifically with regard to some other characters
I look forward to reading more of your postings.
You make good points and good observations.

Keel publicly said that when Reed emerged from make-up in her bouffant hairstyle, he "knew we were in trouble."

That's all I think we know about what Keel thought about Reed's appearance.



Does that mean you won't cast me as Miss Ellie?

As opposed to Pam's poodle look and Sue Ellen's drastic change at the beginning of season 6! LOL
Never heard that, but I did hear something to the effect that they were
good friends (just friends) off the set.
That statement could be taken out of context

I keep forgetting that criticizing Miss Ellie is frowned upon LOL

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

Well I am glad that you have been respected.
Unfortunately, My experience has been different,
specifically with regard to some other characters
I look forward to reading more of your postings.
You make good points and good observations.

We can all read everybody's posts, you know. And you don't appear to be treated with any greater disrespect than Donna Reed -- which means very little. You just don't like disagreement.

Your attempts to charm us now with compliments is generous, I'm sure, but a tad transparent.

As opposed to Pam's poodle look and Sue Ellen's drastic change at the beginning of season 6! LOL

If the poodle perm was worn by Bea Arthur and she was called "Pam" than, yes, it would be a problem.

Just as Michael Landon in his bouffant wouldn't have worked for Jock or JR.

I keep forgetting that criticizing Miss Ellie is frowned upon LOL

You keep making things up. How can we trust you??

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

We can all read everybody's posts, you know. And you don't appear to be treated with any greater disrespect than Donna Reed -- which means very little. You just don't like disagreement.

Your attempts to charm us now with compliments is generous, I'm sure, but a tad transparent.



If the poodle perm was worn by Bea Arthur and she was called "Pam" than, yes, it would be a problem.

Just as Michael Landon in his bouffant wouldn't have worked for Jock or JR.



You keep making things up. How can we trust you??

I don't like disagreement? read your own posts.

I am not making up anything.
Clearly you have not read some of the horrible posts that have been directed at me on other threads.
so you are commenting on something you don't know
Miss Ellie seems to be hero worshipped on this site, and anyone who doesn't share that view is treated
disdainfully
Transparant? It is called manners, decorum, civility, courtesy. More people on this site should try it.

What does Michael Landon have to do with anything?He was never on Dallas